1930 Hudson 8 engine head torque and start up precautions

[timecapsule]

I have a 1930 Hudson 8 engine that was rebuilt in 2004.  To my knowledge it hasn't been started since then.  I've had it just over a year.  I recently built a run engine stand for it and I'm close to firing it up.  A couple of the head nuts had been loosened off for some reason over the years, so I should re-torque the heads ( 2 heads)  I've read that the nuts should be 45 lbs.,  but I've also read 60 lbs.  Since there are two heads, should I be starting out at the centre of each head, and working my way out to the ends of each head?  I suspect it won't matter which head I do first.  Since a couple of the head nuts were completely loose, should I loosen them all off first?  Can anybody set me straight on all that?  

I changed the oil when I first got it with 10W30.  I squirted some oil into the spark plug holes before turning it over.  Even the first rotation was relatively effortless with no initial resistance and I have been rotating the engine about once a month or so.  I have the invoice for the rebuild but it's a little vague on exactly what was done to it.  I have a lot of the old parts.  Pistons, connecting rods, crank bearing, crankshaft, timing chain, pushrods, lifters, etc.  When I look into the spark plug holes the tops of the pistons look fresh.  I've hooked up the wiring and connected a battery and turned it over using the starter with the plugs out and it spins over fine without any suspicious sounds.   I did take a compression test but I've lost those figures somehow so I'll do that again first.

My main question is since it's been sitting so long, are there certain procedures that I should be following? I'm thinking the water pump seal, which I think is felt, will probably leak.  But besides that sort of thing.

 

Should I be replacing that 10W30 oil with a special "break in oil"  >  Should I run it for only a very short period of time, periodically  etc?  Assuming that I can get it going of course.  I rebuilt the up draft carb, using most of the original parts that I just cleaned up.  My experience with rebuilding early down draft carbs tells me everything certainly looks like it might function properly.  I'm not hooking up the vacuum fuel tank.  Simply gravity fed gas from a lawnmower fuel tank.  

Edited July 6, 2023 by timecapsule (see edit history)

[Hans1]

With all of your good efforts to get engine running, just some comments to be helpful.

 

 If you have not  dropped the oil pans for a good cleaning, I recommend you do.

 

Changing oil by draining the oil in lower pan, does not change oil in the upper shallow pan that the connecting rod use for lubrication.

 

The engine is a splash lubricated engine, the oil pump is a makeup type, not a pressure pump.

The upper oil pan with 8 troughs to hold oil for each con rod. This upper pan MUST be filled with  oil before running. 

The oil pump cannot supply enough oil, on startup, to this area. The oil pump supplies oil thru two tubes, to front and rear of engine upper pan.

 

 

 

 

[timecapsule]

5 hours ago, Hans1 said:

With all of your good efforts to get engine running, just some comments to be helpful.

 

 If you have not  dropped the oil pans for a good cleaning, I recommend you do.

 

Changing oil by draining the oil in lower pan, does not change oil in the upper shallow pan that the connecting rod use for lubrication.

 

The engine is a splash lubricated engine, the oil pump is a makeup type, not a pressure pump.

The upper oil pan with 8 troughs to hold oil for each con rod. This upper pan MUST be filled with  oil before running. 

The oil pump cannot supply enough oil, on startup, to this area. The oil pump supplies oil thru two tubes, to front and rear of engine upper pan.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, good point.

[timecapsule]

I was surprised when I dropped the oil pan.  Or should I say oil pans.  I wonder how many cars ended up with worn cranks, because people had no idea that there were two oil pans.  So when they thought they were changing the oil.  The upper pan still had the old oil that was trying to lubricate the crank bearings, oil change after oil change after oil change.  

For those of you not familiar with these engines, here's a couple pictures showing the bottom oil pan, and then one showing the upper oil pan.  The parts book calls the upper oil pan an "oil tray assembly".

Two gaskets.  One against the block, and one between the two pans.

 

Thanks again for that tip Hans1

 

Btw, the oil pan has a gauge in it just like a fuel gauge made of cork.  There is a two way switch beside the ignition switch.  That lets you read the level of both gas or oil, using the same gauge on the dash. 

In the picture of the instrument panel you can see the one gauge labelled as gas or oil.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by timecapsule (see edit history)

[timecapsule]

So as I got familiar with the process and started to clean everything up, I noticed that there was a copper tube that had been pinched off. 

on the side of the block, just under the Carb, is a fitting going through the block and on the outside is a plug.  On the inside of the block is a copper tube.  After taking a few measurements, it seems that the tube is lined up with the one that is pinched off.  The tube coming down fastened to the other end of the plug ( see arrow) is smaller diameter than the pinched off tube in the upper pan so I think it fits inside it.   The pinched off tube goes through the the upper pan and protrudes out the other side about half an inch.  

 

I'm thinking that plug was designed to fill the lower oil pan.  Which would take some time, as opposed to pouring the oil into the filler tube.  I'm thinking that someone decided to pinch that tube off.  Then they calculated how much oil the upper oil pan needed.  That amount of oil would be poured in through that plug and the oil would stay in the upper pan. The advantage of that, would be that it might make it easier to assemble the oil pans, if both were empty.  Other wise you would have to fill the upper pan with the right amount of oil, prior to assembly of both pans as Hans1 mentioned.

 

It's just a thought that might make sense.  Or could there be another reason to pinch that copper tube off?? 

[Jon37]

Do you have the various manuals for this car?  As you may know, they are available at the H-E-T website, under "Library".  All current members of the Hudson club can access and download them.

 

The  1930-33 Hudson Service Operations Manual has sections on axles, engine, and so forth.  However, there are no illustrations, it's mostly text.  For the illustrations you will need to have the 1930-39 Hudson Master Chassis Parts manual alongside your Service Operations Manual!  Kind of cumbersome.

 

One other consideration to be kept in mind, in regards to your car.  Do you know if the carburetor was rebuilt using seals that are compatible with ethanol?

 

l

[timecapsule]

10 hours ago, Jon37 said:

Do you have the various manuals for this car?  As you may know, they are available at the H-E-T website, under "Library".  All current members of the Hudson club can access and download them.

 

The  1930-33 Hudson Service Operations Manual has sections on axles, engine, and so forth.  However, there are no illustrations, it's mostly text.  For the illustrations you will need to have the 1930-39 Hudson Master Chassis Parts manual alongside your Service Operations Manual!  Kind of cumbersome.

 

One other consideration to be kept in mind, in regards to your car.  Do you know if the carburetor was rebuilt using seals that are compatible with ethanol?

 

l

Thanks for your thoughts.  Cumbersome is a very generous word for the Service Operations Manual, lol.  Yes I have the Parts Manual and at times it can be helpful to answer a few head scratching moments.  I rebuilt the carb (10-783) myself, or rather reconditioned it with new gaskets and making sure it was squeaky clean and that flapper valve seated properly.  I didn't see anything in there that might be effected by ethanol.  I use octane 94 in my vintage cars just to be sure anyways.

[Hans1]

your oil pan seems to have a much later type of oil pickup assembly installed.

 

Your oil pump has one inlet (pick up tube )  and two outlet tubes.

 

The inlet tube to oil pump passes thru motor block curves thru upper oil pan and heads down to near bottom of pam. Bottom end of tube has 45 degree cuts on two sides to keep it from touching bottom and closing the opening.

 

You have the remains of the pick up tube pinched off to keep oil level in upper pan retained.

 

I think your engine has quite an interesting modification.

 

[timecapsule]

I'm thinking Hans1 might have the answer to this question.  I'm wondering how much oil I should add to the upper oil pan?  I would think that if I fill it to the top of the 8 troughs that would be sufficient.  Although I could add much more.  In the picture I'm adding here I've inserted the letter F to indicate where I'm thinking I should fill to with oil.  My reasoning is, there are what looks like deflectors on the right side of the pan,  indicted with the letter D.  Once the dipper does it's job lubricating the main bearings I'm guessing the splashing of the oil when it hits the deflectors, the oil will deflect back down into the trough.  

[timecapsule]

Although the so called service manual doesn't mention the double oil pan, I did find an entire full page write up in Dyke's Encyclopedia, in the preface section (page xxxiii) about it .  This makes me wonder if the double oil pan was specific to Hudson 8 cylinder engines of that era?

[paulrhd29nz]

I’m going to say that all splashers had the top second oil pan. I know it was introduced to keep oil to hit the dippers when going around corners. 
on our earlier Hudson and Essex’s we pour 2 or three pints evenly across  through the tappet gallery and the balance in the oil fill tube. 

[timecapsule]

6 hours ago, paulrhd29nz said:

I’m going to say that all splashers had the top second oil pan. I know it was introduced to keep oil to hit the dippers when going around corners. 
on our earlier Hudson and Essex’s we pour 2 or three pints evenly across  through the tappet gallery and the balance in the oil fill tube. 

Thanks for the info Paul.  I'm still trying to find time to come over and buy those headlight lenses from you.  I'll get in touch once I have free time and hopefully we can find a time that works for you too.  Cheers Pete

[Hans1]

1929 Essex on had the two part oil pan assemblies. Separate troughs and oil pan.

1928 and earlier Essex's had oil troughs soldered to the oil pan.

 

Starting with the 1930 Hudson engines, they were two cylinders longer than the Essex.

Apparently, all moving parts were same as Essex, by model year, thru 1932.  ( minus crankshaft, and other unique 8 cyl parts )

The last year for Essex - 1932.