48 DeSoto New problem. Starter pinion grinds and clashes half of the time.

[marcapra]

3 hours ago, dodge28 said:

marrkapra, There is no way to tell how far the pinion goes in because once the starter is installed you cannot see inside the nose cone. The only thing you can do , before  installation  is to paint the pinion gear with some kind of coloring, remove the feed wire from the starter to the solenoid and use a jumper feed the solenoid. Let the solenoid push the pinion a few times in and out, remove the starter and look to see the impression the coloring will leave on the pinion gear. Also look to see how far back the solenoid is pulling back. It is a painful exercise, not foolproof but at least you will get close.

I don't know what you're talking about here.  Why do all of that when the shop manual says to adjust the pinion clearance during the bench test.  It's pretty clear you are just guessing and have not read the DeSoto Shop Manual.  From DeSoto Shop Manual Models S-11, S-13, S-14, DeSoto Division Chrysler Corporation, c. 1950.  "Adjusting Pinion Clearance.  It is essential that the relation between the overrunning clutch drive (or pinion) and the solenoid switch be maintained within proper limits.  This pinion clearance adjustment can ONLY be accurately set after the starting motor is removed from the car."  It goes on to say that battery current should be used to hold the plunger in the engaged position while adjusting the plunger stud linkage.  "The strap connecting the solenoid to the starter terminal should be removed so that the pinion will not spin.  The solenoid "hold in" coil will become energized.  Push the plunger into the engaged position by hand, where it will remain in the proper position for making the pinion clearance adjustment.  The shift lever adjusting stud can now be adjusted so that there will be 1/16" clearance between the end of the pinion and the starting motor drive housing."  I'm a little frustrated with my electric shop because when I tried to explain what I wanted done to the starter and tried to give them a copy of this part of the manual, the owner just pushed it back to me saying "we don't need that."  Maybe they don't, but when they call to say the starter is done, I'm going to ask some pretty detailed questions.  Did you adjust the pinion clearance?  To what spec?  What procedure did you use to adjust it? and so on.  If they can't answer those questions, I'm going to be wary that they didn't correct the problem.  

Edited May 10, 2023 by marcapra (see edit history)

[dodge28]

Those pictures and videos tell me nothing and means nothing to me. The question asked is  "is the pinion GEAR moving in far enough to engage the flywheel"    The answer is simple to solve. Use mechanics Blue on the flywheel teeth, install the starter and engage the solenoid a few times in and out. Remove the starter and look for impression of the die. How far did it go in ? Pinion gears are not designed to go too far across the flywheel teeth. IT GOES IN JUST ENOUGH SO WHEN THE ENGINE STARTS , THE ENGINE SPEED WILL KICK OUT THE PINION GEAR AWAY FROM THE FLYWHEEL. 

[c49er]

I would install that starter...remove the lower bell housing cover, 

Use a remote starter and just really see what the pinion gear is actually doing.

Have done this before on 40's FD MoPar cars and straight clutch trucks...easy.

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by c49er (see edit history)

[marcapra]

I got my starter back from the electric shop today.  The father and son were very nice and tried to explain to me that the pinion gear was adjusted to the right spot.  They charged me nothing for this.  When I got home, I did a bench test on it and it looks better that before.  It doesn't stay spinning up as close to the end as 1/16", but he told me that when it's not turning the flywheel and has no load on it, it does slide back a ways.  When I asked them if they adjusted it to 1/16", they brought me around the counter and showed me the Prestolite, formerly Autolite, shop manual with the specs.  Unlike the spec in my DeSoto Shop Manual, the Prestolite book gave the pinion clearance spec from the back to the front.  It was about 1.22" to something, a range.   So, I will install it tomorrow and see what happens.  I think I will first turn the fan a few inches to see how it starts with good teeth.  And if it doesn't start well on the worn teeth, I will have a mechanic install a new ring gear on the fluid drive.  

Edited May 12, 2023 by marcapra (see edit history)

[keiser31]

32 minutes ago, marcapra said:

I got my starter back from the electric shop today.  The father and son were very nice and tried to explain to me that the pinion gear was adjusted to the right spot.  They charged me nothing for this.  When I got home, I did a bench test on it and it looks better that before.  It doesn't stay spinning up as close to the end as 1/16", but he told me that when it's not turning the flywheel and has no load on it, it does slide back a ways.  When I asked them if they adjusted it to 1/16", they brought me around the counter and showed me the Prestolite, formerly Autolite, shop manual with the specs.  Unlike the spec in my DeSoto Shop Manual, the Prestolite book gave the pinion clearance spec from the back to the front.  It was about 1.22" to something, a range.   So, I will install it tomorrow and see what happens.  I think I will first turn the fan a few inches to see how it starts with good teeth.  And if it doesn't start well on the worn teeth, I will have a mechanic install a new ring gear on the fluid drive.  

Best of luck getting it sorted!

[marcapra]

Finally, good news!  I put the starter in today without the ignition hooked up.  It worked perfectly, even after about ten or fifteen cranks!  Looks like the pinion gear clearance was the culprit, and not the ring gear.  Now, I'm going to reinstall the radiator, clutch and transmission linkage, and ignition and start up the engine again.  Looks like the body will be going on soon now!  

[keiser31]

32 minutes ago, marcapra said:

Finally, good news!  I put the starter in today without the ignition hooked up.  It worked perfectly, even after about ten or fifteen cranks!  Looks like the pinion gear clearance was the culprit, and not the ring gear.  Now, I'm going to reinstall the radiator, clutch and transmission linkage, and ignition and start up the engine again.  Looks like the body will be going on soon now!  

SWEET!