Rockford Fosgates vs Infinitis

[bigsteviejoe]

I went looking for speakers, after browsing the internet.

I'm looking for stock size 5.25 door speakers. I like the Rockford Fosgates over both Infinitis after listening to both. The Rockfords sounded louder every time with noticable more base. Reference Components vs HPC2205 components; 5.25 Kappa vs 5.25 2205 HPC and Reference level 5.25 vs 3205FRC

Sensitivity for Infinitis are 90db and up, Rockfords are rated at 86-89db. Infinitis have 50 and up RMS rating, Rockfords' 2-40, 2-60RMS.

It appears to be some fluke. Maybe someone played the hell out of the Infinitis?

Do you feel that the Rockfords would be powered adequately with my stock unit?

The low end of the Recommended RMS is 2watts, yet the sensitivity is 86db.

I was told at Futureshop that the wiring of Reatta makes it impossible to do whatever 'cause "signal is amplified at the speaker" thus they wouldn't do an install cuz of a Riv they messed up in the past.

I may look into a 4 channel amp, any suggestions? I'd like enough power to operate Rockford fosgates. May go to 6.5" in the back later.

Also considering Delco speakers just to forget this headache.

What would you do? Checked out Crutchfield already, impressed with prices.

[Guest EDBSO]

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I was told at Futureshop that the wiring of Reatta makes it impossible to do whatever 'cause "signal is amplified at the speaker" thus they wouldn't do an install cuz of a Riv they messed up in the past.

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First off I think that Future Shop hasn't a clue about what they are talking about. It sounds like they are describing a Bose System. Bose were never installed on the Reattas. Bose are amplified in the door. Reatta's do not have any amplification in the doors at the speakers. There is a small electronic cross-over to split the signal between the 5.25" bass unit and the smaller (I would estimate 2.5") tweeter unit higher up in the door.

I have installed many 6 x 9 speakers in front doors, most recently I installed the Infiniti Kappa 693.5i $249 at Crutchfield in the front doors of my 89 Reatta. I paid $132.90 here.

In theory they boast [*]Plus One C.M.M.D. woofer cone is 30% larger than other speakers of this size, ensuring strong bass response [*]high-roll rubber surround allows greater woofer movement [*]1" C.M.M.D. dome tweeter [*]1-1/8" metallic planar EMIT supertweeter [*]2-way external crossovers (18 dB/octave, 3,500 Hz high- and low-pass) sensitivity 90 dB frequency response 35-22,000 Hz

A bit of a word of caution the infinities are rated at 4 ohms stock at 10 I believe.

On paper and in a listening room they are great!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> In the Reatta doors <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I am extremely demanding and critical of my music.. I like all types and am interested in the quality of the musical sound. When I listen at home and in the Riviera with 6 x 9 Phoenix Golds in the front doors I can not hear the speakers. This may sound odd but there is just music in a perfect sound stage in front of me. What I am trying to say is if you close your eyes you can picture where each instrument is and where each singer is. With your eyes open and looking directly at the speakers I can not hear any sound coming from them. Obviously it is. In a poor system I can hear unintegrated sound coming from each speaker.

To have a perfect well developed sound stage you require. 1 a perfectly recorded/broadcast piece. 2. your amp, CD, radio, tape or other source has to decode the music perfectly and the connecting wires and speaker wires have to transmit the sound until it reaches your ears, undistorted in phase with full fidelity. I have heard $10,000 store demo units being unable to do this. It is difficult BUT once you have heard a system that does it properly you will be blown away. There will just be music magically there. It will not appear to be coming from the left or the right speaker. It will just be there and when you hear it you will be blown away. So far the Kappas have almost no sound satge, they do sound slightly better.

After having them broken in for over 100 hours I am distinctly unimpressed with my Infinity Kappas. The Bass is fine the tweeter IMHO is sadly lacking. They should be much much better. I could have goofed by making the installation too tidy? All connections were silver soldered and taped. There are no air leaks because all have been sealed with acoustic/construction sealer. I am thinking that by folding the extra speaker wire around itself and then taping it to the external cross-over and then the door frame so it wouldn't rattle, that I have built a choke and have killed all the treble? I am unhappy enough with them that I will remove them, cut out all the extra wires and substitute 28AGW solid silver wire in Teflon tubes and braided. I just need it to be 90 degrees warmer.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sensitivity for Infinitis are 90db and up, Rockfords are rated at 86-89db. Infinitis have 50 and up RMS rating, Rockfords' 2-40, 2-60RMS.

...

Do you feel that the Rockfords would be powered adequately with my stock unit?

The low end of the Recommended RMS is 2watts, yet the sensitivity is 86db.

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Audio theory states that to play twice as loud a speaker has to play 3db louder. A speaker with a sensitivity 0f 86db will play half as loud as a speaker with 89db with the same power input. To find out just how loud the 90db efficiency Infinity will play in my 89 I would require a good pair of ear defenders. As they are now they can play way too loud for sustained listening. Also as you get near the limits the amp starts to clip and that is where real and often terminal damage will occur to speakers. You toast them quickly. With the 89 radio controls one never knows whether you are using 10% or 99% of the available power. At very loud levels (for short times) I cannot hear any signs of distortion. But being prudent I am afraid to really crank it. In summary they will play loud to the point of hurting. Speakers with effeciency of 87db will play half as loud at the same power levels.

One last note "Audio" is a very subjective field. To one it sounds like angels singing to another it sounds like fingernails on a blackboard. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> If you are at all critical I would not use the Delco units. Just my 2cts.

PS; in almost all situations the louder speaker will sound better, they are not always better.

[2seater]

Robert had a pretty good explanation and has done some serious work to get the big speakers in his doors. Just for reference I installed Polk audio 5.25 component speakers in my front doors after installing three different sets and returning them. They were about $200 for the four speaker set with crossover and are rated at 92db @ 1watt. I also installed Pioneer 6x9 coaxials in the rear rated at 93db. @ 1watt. Still sound good three years later.

[bigsteviejoe]

I like the Polk ones I saw on the internet, their numbers look really good (I remember the 92db @ 1watt). I'll have to listen to those also if I can find any.

Thanks for the info on the amp Rob.

[Reatta_Cruzin]

I have never had good luck with Rockford speakers. They tend to blow out on me rather quickly. Also they are not the cleanest sounding speaker on the market. If you do not want to spend alot of money I might check into Kenwood, Polk Audio, or maybe even Boston. I haven't really checked on componet speakers in a while so I do not know off hand what there rated at. I like running the JL Audio and M B Quart. Those are just my thoughts. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[twistedmooch]

no offense fellas but u got ripped just cause it has a fancy name like rockford or sony for instance dont mean u getting anything out of it. i would advise audiobahns they come from california and u can get them cheap off the net. i have 6x9, 5.25, 4", 2 12's all audio bahn and nothing ive heard is better for the price, their speakers and subs are cheap but there amps are expensive cause they are so well made with dual fans and all that (which is nice for hot conditions) but i advice going with a cheaper amp unless u have over heat problems i have a 1800 watt 4channel pyramid amp that i like i have a cooling fan hooked to it, and no problems.

http://www.cmttrading.com/

http://www.cardiscountstereos.com/Index.htm

http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=pyrpbfc (a cooling fan that can be modified to any amp)

cant go wrong with those sites, good luck

[bigsteviejoe]

Actually, I started looking at looking at the Audiobahns and Blaupunkts not long after I couldn't find a Rockford Fosgate speaker sensitive enough. Checked out Memphis, got so/so reviews on Pheonix Golds that the shop had in stock, (they preferred the Memphis). . . Ended up getting Audiobahn components in the front, Kicker K60 in the rear (they found 6.5" speakers in the back). I have the rears wired for 10ohm. . . I have to go back, one of the kickers is popping. I think the components need breaking in. . . either that or they are power hungry(90db). The components sound good, tweeters work great.

Any thoughts, advice or questions?

[bigsteviejoe]

Kickers went back this morning cuz they were blown. . . Tried another pair of Kickers, they were also blown. . . they're all out of Kickers now. . . getting Audiobahn AS62 s tomorrow. The bass in the front components has improved a bit (they aren't as quiet now), going with an amp to fix all problems with the front.

[Guest EDBSO]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have to go back, one of the kickers is popping. I think the components need breaking in. . . either that or they are power hungry(90db).

Any thoughts, advice or questions? </div></div>

bigsteviejoe; you are having problems?

Most audio experts agree that speakers can benefit from "break-in" period of 25 to 125 hours. During this period they should not be played over 50% of their volume. Speakers have moving parts that are generally rather stiff when they come out of the factory. One of these parts is called the surround; it's the rounded piece of rubber or foam that connects the outer edge of the cone or dome to the speaker basket. The other is called the spider; it's the part that connects the center of a woofer cone to the back part of the speaker basket, and that keeps the woofer's voice coil centered in the voice-coil gap.

Surrounds and spiders are kind of like shoes, they're not very flexible at first but with use, they become much more flexible. And as the surrounds and spiders in your speakers become more flexible, your speakers will sound better. Some speakers sound just a little better after break-in. Some go from sounding horrible out of the box to sounding glorious after break-in.

I would be interested in hearing whether you consider the Audiobahn AS62s to be a "musical" speakers?

At 90db at 1 watt at 1 meter these speakers are not power hungry. They are reasonably efficient. The Audiobahns at 94db are even more efficient.

Don't like the idea of an additional amp but that is just one of my preferences. I could write 5,000 word paper but won't each unto his own. Personally I like red wine too <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PS you do know that the AS62s bottom out at 50Hz and no amp will change that.

[bigsteviejoe]

Okay not being thrilled at the thought of needing an amp, after I tried to avoid needing one, i figured I may as well get a 4 channel. Saved $100 with a Kenwood from Best Buy, over what was available at the place where I got speakers. Kenwood is cool, it matches the other amp. I was charged 1 hour to install it. . . guess how long it took.

6 hours.

They took out the factory amp and wired it directly to the aftermarket. Nix AS62 for ABC 600. Sounded really clear, still has a few bugs to be worked out and tweeked. passenger door isn't doing anything, a connection I hope.

The gear indicator is not lighting up, or indacting which gear.

And the safety lense or light at the bottom of the passenger door isn't lighting up.

Is the fiberoptic in the door a signal for the light to turn on or is it to light up the key hole? Trying too figure if something burnt out or what isn't connected. Is it hard to replace the light?

[Reatta_Cruzin]

You had a factory amp? or are you talking about the little crossover deal that separates the two speakers in the door? Why did it take Best Buy 6 Hours to install the amp? Sounds scary. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[bigsteviejoe]

There was a factory amp in the center console. They clipped it, so it the radio would hook directly into the Kenwood amp. Right now there the balance is screwed up. I think they mixed up the speaker inputs, cuz when I move the balance (via the touchscreen) to the right or forward, all 4 channels get quieter. Best Buy didn't do the install, the place where I got the speakers are.

For whatever reason they decided to scrap the factory amp, i guess for less distortion? The Kenwood comes with speaker level inputs too. Probably would have been faster or atleast proper balance if they went this route. So 6 hours and it has to go back for rewiring, cuz right now I don't have stereo sound.

I'm getting good at detecting all this. I'm surpised no one doing the install thought of testing the balance controls or using them to find which wires pair up. !!!IT BETTER GET THAT STEREO SOUND BACK!!!

This is a major headache. First they don't want you where they do the install, second they don't know how to put everything back together so it works (the gear indicator wasn't plugged in, the light in the door is still upplugged I imagine), then they automatically assume you want whatever you are taking out thrown out, along with any packaging that came with whatever you buy.

If you ever have your Reatta amped, or any speaker installation, here are the things to say and do

1 whatever comes out, I want

2 I want all the packaging

3 don't pull at the speaker grilles on the door!

4 Doors come out

5 Check to see if there is an engine block near by before opening doors

6 Once installed, have them test the balance controls

7 Make sure to plug in 4 pin connector so you can see what gear I'm in

8 Plug light in at bottom of door before putting door back on, and theres a fiberoptic that goes into it as well.

9 test your remote and all power lock switches, a fuse is likely to blow at sometime during the install, not good if the key to the trunk is seized

10 Get a labour quote before saying any of the above but do let them know you have a touchscreen

11 Probably would like to specify to use speaker level inputs or unamped inputs on amp if your amp has that feature.

12 atleast buy the speakers from installer, the K series Kickers which were meant for factory replacement, blew one after another till there were none left. Either they were defective, the factory amp didn't like them, or they were being connected with the power on, Audiobahn manual says "Don't do that"...

its impossible to change 4ohm to 10ohm, they can be wired for 8ohm but you lose balance function and stereo (why you'll probably end up needing an amp anyways)

13 have a ride so you can go home. . . don't want to be there all day.

With that all said, they're honoring the quote for labour, but then again it would be done much faster, if more preparations were taken (labelling wires), and it was done right the first time.

Not sure how much better Future Shop or Best Buy would have done. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Rawja]

Did they return the "factory amp" they are not utilizing to you? To the best of my knowledge the radio tuner and amplifier unit are contained within the same silver box in the console. Short of dissassembly and modification of the unit there is no way to use anything other than the line level outputs of the radio/amplifier unit. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with that, but you can add it to the list of things that indicate the installer didn't know what he was doing. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

[bigsteviejoe]

I didn't get the factory amp back, but oh well. . . its cheaper to go with another aftermarket amp anyways at this point.

I took the car in this morning and everything was fixed. I have balance left and right controls working. Front and back doesn't work like it should, but thats typical with a factory radio with 2 wires, from what I'm told. A couple wires on the amp had to be switched and stereo sound was restored.

I'm happy. The amp gives more of a selection of settings and speakers to choose from. I'm not going to run 60Hz or 250Hz real hi on the eq, I'm just going to turn down the speaker amp a bit, so I get more subwoofer. Its the last bit of dialing in I have to do.

[TheBlackMoon]

What in the world is Best Buy doing to you? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Why are they keeping <span style="font-weight: bold">ANYTHING</span> from your Reatta that they did not put in there in the first place? You must have an '88/'89, as a '90/91 doesn't come with an amp in the center console (to my knowledge). Nonetheless, all they had to do was wire the low-level outputs (bypass) to the new amp, or lacking outputs, use a y-splitter to feed the new amp. Wire speakers to the new amp and it's done.

And what is this stuff about your "factory radio" only having two channels? Even I know that you have four channels (front left, rear left, front right, rear right)! I wish you were close by so I could see what type of <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">HACK JOB</span></span> they did on your system. That is EXACTLY why I do and will be continuing to do my own installations! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

[TheBlackMoon]

That being said (and me having calmed down a bit), I recommened the AudioBahn's too. I've heard only one sub that I feel is even in it's class as far as "purity" of bass reproduction goes, and that's the high end Boston. The Boston's were reasonable last year, but now they're through the roof. Audiobahn's the next best. I have the components in the doors now (as they were the only ones that produced highs comparable to those in the original 12ohm factory 4" tweeters), and actually pretty descent mids. I have the lows clipped at the amp, as I use a 10" and a 12" Audiobahn to fill out the lows and subsonics. (Before I amp was cooked by a kook wiring my isolator wrong), the sound was phenomenal! Will be eventually trading in the Jensens I use for the rears for the Audiobahn 6x9's or for som 600W American Pros (which also makes a good amp and 6x9 speakers). I don't care for the sound of the AP's when it comes to subs, though. Too muddy.