calcoupe

[calcoupe]

I am entering my 1937 vintage  car to be judged  for the first time, as a Junior. I have two sets of tires with wheels, one set is bias ply, other is radial. Bias set has worn tread (approximately 25%left) and the radials almost new. Both are correct size and have whitewalls. 

Reading the many questions and answers about radials, it looks like radials will most likely be a point deduction. The bias tires may be deducted because they are worn. Are there fixed point deductions for either of these conditions or guidelines that will help me to decide which to use for the show?

Thanks 

[MCHinson]

You will receive fewer points deducted for worn correct bia ply tires than you will for radial tires. Radial tires on a 1937 car should receive a total deduction for incorrect tires. I would urge you to put the bias ply tires on the car for judging. 

[calcoupe]

Thanks very much for your advice.

 

[61polara]

Your bias ply tires at 25% are still serviceable, so I would say no deduction for them.

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

I agree with Matt Hinson that incorrect radial tires would receive the full 2-point deduction per time.  Mount the wheels with the bias ply tires.  Depending on whether the chassis judge can see your spare tire(s), you're looking at a minimum of 8 points deducted for incorrect radial tires and possibly 2-4 more points if the chassis judge can see 1-2 incorrect radial spare tires.  Bias-ply tires would only receive the max deduction if they're not authentic (wrong size or wrong sidewall) or not serviceable (bald, bulging sidewall, etc.).  Badly worn bias-ply tires might receive a deduction for condition, but not the full 2-point deduction (assuming they're the correct size and sidewall) because they're correct and serviceable.

 

If the bias ply tires look like 3/4 of the tread is worn, I'd deduct 1 point for each tire, so a total of 4 points (plus possibly 1-2 more if I can see the spare tire(s) and they're equally worn).  They may be serviceable, but if they don't look like they would've when the car was new and delivered to the original buyer (the AACA judging standard), then a deduction for condition would be appropriate.  My rule of thumb is would you have accepted the car with tires in that condition the day you picked up new from the dealer.  If the answer is yes, then a deduction is probably not appropriate.  If the answer is no--you would make the dealer correct the issue (in this case, replace the tires)--then a deduction would be appropriate.  What do the tires look like--do they look worn--would you have accepted them in that condition on a new car?  Your call (but ultimately also the call of the chassis judge and team captain who judge your car).

 

Something to keep in mind:  your car not only has to have a minimum of 365 points (out of 400) to receive its First Junior Award, it also has to be within 10 points of the top scoring car in your class also going for its First Junior.  If you show your car with radial tires, you're giving up an easily (but not cheaply) corrected 8 points minimum.  If you show it with badly worn bias-ply tires, you're giving up an easy 4 points minimum (again, easily but not cheaply fixed).  What's the rest of the car like?  Can you give up 4 or 8 points minimum and still be within 10 points of the top scoring car going for First Junior in your class?  (Or will you car be the top scoring one in its class and the others have to be within 10 points of your car?) 

 

Consider replacing the tires, but at least look at your car from a judge's perspective and fix anything easy to correct that might cost you points (e.g., clamps, belts, filters, decals, cleanliness, surface rust, etc.) to help your car score well and balance out the points lost for the badly worn tires.  If you know someone that's an experienced AACA judge, have them look at your car and point out what they see as possible issues that might result in point deductions.  Between his/her eyes and yours, you can come up with a list of what needs to be addressed before the car is judged, prioritize what needs to be done, then work through the list and knock off the easiest things and those you can afford to do with the time available before the car is judged.

 

If you haven't already reviewed the AACA Official Judging Guidelines, I recommend you do so.  The Judging Form (Form 3-5 in the Section 3 Appendix) breaks down what the judges are looking at and the information contained in Section 2 under "Specific Guidelines" provides some specific information that's very helpful.  (Sorry for what may seem like a pretty dumb suggestion--it's unclear from your post if you've gone through the AACA judging process before.  I apologize if you've done this many times and were just asking for an opinion on which tires to have on the car and how many points would be lost for radials or badly worn bias-ply tires.) 

 

Good luck!  I hope your car does well and receives its First Junior.  The fact that you're asking about which tires to have on the car shows you're attentive to detail and what your car to do well.

[calcoupe]

7 hours ago, Mark McAlpine said:

I agree with Matt Hinson that incorrect radial tires would receive the full 2-point deduction per time.  Mount the wheels with the bias ply tires.  Depending on whether the chassis judge can see your spare tire(s), you're looking at a minimum of 8 points deducted for incorrect radial tires and possibly 2-4 more points if the chassis judge can see 1-2 incorrect radial spare tires.  Bias-ply tires would only receive the max deduction if they're not authentic (wrong size or wrong sidewall) or not serviceable (bald, bulging sidewall, etc.).  Badly worn bias-ply tires might receive a deduction for condition, but not the full 2-point deduction (assuming they're the correct size and sidewall) because they're correct and serviceable.

 

If the bias ply tires look like 3/4 of the tread is worn, I'd deduct 1 point for each tire, so a total of 4 points (plus possibly 1-2 more if I can see the spare tire(s) and they're equally worn).  They may be serviceable, but if they don't look like they would've when the car was new and delivered to the original buyer (the AACA judging standard), then a deduction for condition would be appropriate.  My rule of thumb is would you have accepted the car with tires in that condition the day you picked up new from the dealer.  If the answer is yes, then a deduction is probably not appropriate.  If the answer is no--you would make the dealer correct the issue (in this case, replace the tires)--then a deduction would be appropriate.  What do the tires look like--do they look worn--would you have accepted them in that condition on a new car?  Your call (but ultimately also the call of the chassis judge and team captain who judge your car).

 

Something to keep in mind:  your car not only has to have a minimum of 365 points (out of 400) to receive its First Junior Award, it also has to be within 10 points of the top scoring car in your class also going for its First Junior.  If you show your car with radial tires, you're giving up an easily (but not cheaply) corrected 8 points minimum.  If you show it with badly worn bias-ply tires, you're giving up an easy 4 points minimum (again, easily but not cheaply fixed).  What's the rest of the car like?  Can you give up 4 or 8 points minimum and still be within 10 points of the top scoring car going for First Junior in your class?  (Or will you car be the top scoring one in its class and the others have to be within 10 points of your car?) 

 

Consider replacing the tires, but at least look at your car from a judge's perspective and fix anything easy to correct that might cost you points (e.g., clamps, belts, filters, decals, cleanliness, surface rust, etc.) to help your car score well and balance out the points lost for the badly worn tires.  If you know someone that's an experienced AACA judge, have them look at your car and point out what they see as possible issues that might result in point deductions.  Between his/her eyes and yours, you can come up with a list of what needs to be addressed before the car is judged, prioritize what needs to be done, then work through the list and knock off the easiest things and those you can afford to do with the time available before the car is judged.

 

If you haven't already reviewed the AACA Official Judging Guidelines, I recommend you do so.  The Judging Form (Form 3-5 in the Section 3 Appendix) breaks down what the judges are looking at and the information contained in Section 2 under "Specific Guidelines" provides some specific information that's very helpful.  (Sorry for what may seem like a pretty dumb suggestion--it's unclear from your post if you've gone through the AACA judging process before.  I apologize if you've done this many times and were just asking for an opinion on which tires to have on the car and how many points would be lost for radials or badly worn bias-ply tires.) 

 

Good luck!  I hope your car does well and receives its First Junior.  The fact that you're asking about which tires to have on the car shows you're attentive to detail and what your car to do well.

 

[calcoupe]

Thanks for the answers and advice.

This will be the first time this car is being judged at a National event. Also my first time. I have owned this car since 1960, my first car. It has been restored now and I have been encouraged by several experienced AACA members to enter it to be  judged.  I drive it frequently and that is why the bias tires are worn. They are the second set of Coker bias tires . They don't last long! And I do have a matching spare. I prefer the radial tires for driving, and they look good. But I would like to improve the chance of earning a First Junior award. Not to increase the value of the car. I'll never sell it.  

Anyway, I have bias tires on wheels as well as the radials so I can put the bias tires back  on for the show. Don't want to buy more tires at this time. Hope they won't be judged too harshly.

It is my understanding that specific point deductions are not revealed to the owner, so I won't know exactly what to do to correct. But your answers are very helpful to my decision about which tires are most likely to be acceptable.

Thanks again for your guidance.

 

[61polara]

Specific points are not revealed to the owner, but the area of deduction is highlighted  on the form from the VP Judging, if requested.

[61polara]

Also, as you see there can be different deductions for the same item based on the judge.

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

Hello CalCoupe,

 

    You're doing the right thing by asking for advice on the Forum, especially if this will be your first time going through the AACA class judging process.

 

    I understand what you say about the bias-ply and radial tires.  Many owners have two sets of wheels & tires so they can drive and enjoy their car, then put the a correct and new appearing set on the car for AACA judging.

 

    Which AACA Nationals are you going to show your car for its First Junior?  If you haven't attended Judging School before, I recommend you do so.  Even if you have no intention of becoming an AACA judge (who know, maybe you will decide to), it's good for anyone entering their vehicle into the judging process to understand what the judges are looking for when they walk around your car.  If would be best if you could attend a Judging School before you show you car so you can take the new information and look at your car from a different perspective and still have time to correct anything you think needs to be addressed.

 

    In the meantime, I recommend you review the AACA Official Judging Guidelines and if you have more questions, post them on the Forum.  Other members are happy to share their experience and opinion--we've all been in your position before and remember well the first time we had one of our vehicles judged.  It's an anxious/stressful experience for most people, so your fellow members are happy to do anything they can to help relieve that anxiety/stress.

 

    My main piece of advice when going through the class judging experience is to remember the AACA General Policy for class judging:  

    "The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle, which has been restored to the same state as the dealer could have prepared the vehicle for delivery to the customer. This includes any feature, option or accessory shown in the original factory catalog, parts book, sales literature, or company directives for the model year of the vehicle."  If something on the car doesn't look like it would've on the day you picked it up new from the dealer, address it (paint it, polish it, repair it, or replace it).  I know this is easier said than done, and sometimes is expensive, so prioritize your efforts and start with the easy and inexpensive things to fix, then focus on those items that might cost you the most points (especially if it's something that can be seen easily).

    After the Nationals, regardless of what award you car receives, write the VP of Judging and ask for a copy of your Judging Form.  As 61Polara said, you won't be told the specific points that were deducted, but the areas/items that received deductions will be circled so you know what to look at and correct on your car.

    Good luck!  And thanks for bringing your antique vehicle to an AACA Nationals and sharing it with the rest of us!  Let us know what show you're going to so we can cheer when your efforts are recognized and your car receives its First Junior Award.

[Frantz]

Check out appendix 3-5
I think this is an overlooked form by many folks who enter cars, but it's the key to understand where your car will likely place ahead of time. Just reference the rest of the guide to determine how to judge and deduct on specific questions.

This form gives the max deduction for each category, you can go over the car yourself, judges probably are more lenient that most honest owners on how harsh they judge. But also, keep in mind we can't take off half points. I often judge chassis and often have the most deductions given. I don't try to be harsh, but there are four wheels and if they aren't in great shape, that's 4x points. When radials were huge deductions they would bump cars out of awards status left and right. I'm young enough to actually look under cars from one knee and often find incorrect hardware "out of sight"

On the side of this form you also see the important cut off for awards. To receive a JR 1st you have to have at least 365 points... that needs to be goal one. However, if someone has a perfect car in your class, they would have 400 points and you'd have to be within 10 points to also get a first... so if you aim for 390 points or better, you should feel very very comfortable that you'll get a first (and you'll have a super nice car).

So this means your class affects your odds if you don't have a 390+ point car. There are only a handful of 400 point cars on any given field, if any at all. But you're more likely to find one in a popular class with lots of aftermarket support. A '67 Mustang is easier to find perfect parts for than most '37 cars. Not a reason to be lazy, however, there are certainly classes it's easier to get a 1st, or any place in without spending as much money because of this.

[calcoupe]

I want to thank all of you who have shared your knowledge , experience and advice on the judging process. And I would welcome more. 

The tire questions are not the only issues I need advice on. And several of you have offered help in that regard. I am wrestling with decisions about where to focus on for this event. Some of this is due to expense, difficulty and lack of knowledge of the judging process and the priority of each of the features of the car. I may be overthinking it. 

I am going to do what I can to present a car to be judged that appears as close as I can to a "new" car. Just a few weeks left to get ready so I'll be busy correcting what I can. 

Thanks again.

Jim

[MCHinson]

Where are you located? Perhaps an experienced AACA Judge near you can look over the car for you before hand. I have done this for friends on multiple occasions. It is good to get another experienced set of eyes on the car who can often point out quick easy cheap fixes that will save you a loss of points. 

[calcoupe]

 Hi MCHInson

I am located in North Jersey. Lots of experienced antique car people here. I have discussed my questions with some and got some good advice from them as well as from this forum. I’m in the process of making some changes to return the car to original condition. I have to undo some mods that I made over the 59 years of ownership. As of tomorrow, I won’t drive it until I go to Hershey. So it might be difficult to have it looked at by an experienced critic. Thanks for the suggestion though. 

Calcoupe 

 

[MCHinson]

Are you a member of a local Region or Chapter? If so, your region likely has an experienced judge who will be willing to stop by and look at the car for you. 

[calcoupe]

Once again, Thanks to all of you for your advice. 

I attended the Hershey Meet last week and it was very enjoyable. And I was fortunate to receive a Jr. 1st award. 

To follow up on the question of bias vs radial tires, I did purchase new bias tires. I have enough wheels so now I can switch back and forth. Don't know if it made the difference but maybe. I am not in agreement with the idea that bias tires play any part in judging but I can't argue it. I just hope that it is changed in the future. 

I have been to the Hershey Fall event several times but never attended the show. It was great! So many incredible and interesting cars. 

Very glad I went.

 

[Wilbur. Cameron jr]

How do I go about getting my 1963.5 Galaxie 500 with 72k original miles survivor get certified?.

[61polara]

First start a new post.  You will get more very good responses.

[calcoupe]

You probably posted this to me by mistake. I really can’t help out with any suggestions  

Hope someone can help you out. 

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

Hello Mr. Cameron.  As Dave (61 Polara) posted above, start a new post--other members won't be looking at this post for a discussion on HPOF (Historic Preservation of Original Features).  Title your post something like "Question on Obtaining HPOF Certification" and you'll get lots of people weighing in with information and suggestions.

 

The first suggestion I can offer is to read the last five issues of the Rummage Box.  (They're posted under Publications on the AACA website.)  Fred Trusty, the Chairman of HPOF (and one of our National Directors) wrote a great series of five articles detailing the HPOF certification process and what the judges look for.  I think you'll find the articles very helpful and they probably answer many of your questions.

 

Again, I recommend you start a new post and let members provide you information and answer any questions you may have.  And please post a photo of your car--we'd love to see it!