Ignition Key Cylinder very stiff - Leading to Stalling?

[SCOTT's 90's]

Hello Everyone,

 

First off I know it has been a while since I have posted, I am sorry! I have had a lot of life issues lately -- let's just say that Medicare/Social Security/Workers Comp....etc. Sucks!!!  I have also been without a computer for quite sometime since my laptop decided to take a crapper and so I have been using my friends computers and my cell phone for internet stuff - What a Pain.  I finally got a new laptop recently and things are starting to get better.

 

So anyway, I have not been doing much with my two cars, just maintenance ... Yeah maybe I put a total of 200 miles on both of them together in the last year and a half. 

A few weeks ago I went to take the Blue (Blue Interior - 182,000 Miles) out on an errand about 10 miles round trip. about 5 miles in I came to a stop light and when green I started accelerating to the speed limit of 40 after driving about 100ft and going about 40mph when all of a sudden my CEL light came on and the RPM's dropped to 0 and engine stalled for about a second then it went back to normal ( No CEL light and RPM's @ 2500 ) then about 10 seconds later it did it again but this time it was a complete stall and I had to crank the steering wheel to go around a corner of a side street before I coasted to a stop(remembering those days without power steering).

 

So then I tried to start her and I got the famous "Crank No Start" symptom. I then checked the diagnostics for codes and all I got was b119c and the b552H which I had the battery unplugged a week ago, Nothing else. I cleared the codes and tried to start it again...Nothing. I then pulled out my fuel pressure gauge and tested it and got 46psi  I tested the coils and plugs getting voltage and spark. After that it had been about 10 minutes so I PUT the key back in the ignition and tried to start her again and it fired right up like a dream and idled @ 650 RPM's.

 

The only thing a little out of the ordinary was when I first got in to go on the errand was the Key was somewhat difficult to insert into the ignition and the cylinder was a stiff to turn to start it.  I know that when the key resistor pellet is inserted and read a signal is sent from the VATS to the fuel enable circuit that it is good or bad. If it is good all is well and we are happy, if not then it is disabled and it won't start. So now here is the question; If at any time there is a problem with the circuit and the VATS thinks it is triggered will the ECM send a fuel or spark disable causing a "Stall" ? It says in the FSM that if the signal is lost while the engine is running the ECM will store a code E058 and the vehicle will still run normally but I didn't get any codes. 

 

Yesterday after 2 days of cleaning and diagnosing I took it for a spin to a friends house just down the street and I was thinking problem solved. When I went to go home I tried to start it and I got the Crank No Start again. So I checked codes and did a few diagnostics and tried it again...Nothing.  Then I thought I would try to remove the key and put it back in to see what happens...Well it started!!! Also before anyone asks - The "SECURITY" light on the IPC lights up for 2 seconds and goes out supposedly indicating that the VATS is working correctly.

 

Has anyone had a similar issue and am I barking up the right tree or am I out in left field. It just seems a bit strange that the cylinder is soo stiff and the key is difficult to insert (I have also tried the spare key). I have been reading here on the forum mostly Ol' Yeller and have done many of the suggestions found there, now I am not sure what to do other than do more diagnostics on the ECM, ECU.

Thanks for any ideas.

Scott

 

My Diagnostics/Fixes/Cleaning:

Newer Magnavox coils

New Spark Plugs

New Generator/Alternator 14volts

Newer Battery 12-14volts

Cleaned MAF

Cleaned EGR

Tested Fuel pump - 46psi

Cleaned IACV

Cleaned/Tightened Grounds & Positives

Checked wires under hood for breaks/kinks

Checked Fuel Relays R&R

 

[Ronnie]

18 minutes ago, SCOTT's 90's said:

all of a sudden my CEL light came on and the RPM's dropped to 0 and engine stalled for about a second then it went back to normal ( No CEL light and RPM's @ 2500 )

 

I can't find a code 058 listed anywhere. Since you lost the tach signal I would put my money on the Crankshaft Position Sensor or possibly the ICM.

[SCOTT's 90's]

 

Here you go Ronnie

 

 

[SCOTT's 90's]

13 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

 

Since you lost the tach signal I would put my money on the Crankshaft Position Sensor or possibly the ICM.

Ronnie,

Yeah I plan on checking the CPS tomorrow if the weather is good and will post my results, Thanks!

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by SCOTT's 90's (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

42 minutes ago, SCOTT's 90's said:

 

Here you go Ronnie

 

 

 

 

Interesting. You might be on to something. I don't have a '90 FSM. E058 isn't listed in earlier manuals because they didn't have VATS.

[Kevin M]

I had bypassed the VATS on my 97 lesabre I didn’t have any problems with that except  for the security light being on all the time. From what I remember there wasn’t any stiffness in the cylinder, the car just wouldn’t turn on. I had no warning hat it was going one day it just didnt start. From what I researched at that time that seemed to be the case for most people. Hope that helps. 

[AZVET]

I owned several C4 Corvettes over the years and they all had the VATS system.

One of the cures for a crank, no start was to use the spare key.  If that did not work then the other cure was to liberally coat the key with alcohol and repeatedly put it in and pull it out of the lock cylinder.  After so many years of use the cylinder gets gummed up and does not recognize the key's pellet.

Most of the time this would cure the problem.  I did have an 87 vert where this did not work.  I bought a new ignition cylinder from Corvette Central along with a new key.  This did not work either.  I then got a used VATS control module from a Corvette salvage yard.  The module's code matched the pellet on the key.  This worked.

Other folks would bypass the VATS system completely.

My manual is for my 88 so it is no help to you either.

[Ronnie]

If this turns out to be the VATS causing the engine to stall going down the road it will be the first time I've heard about it happening. I know it was designed to keep the engine from starting but I will be surprised if it can cause the engine to die while you're driving the car.

[SCOTT's 90's]

Yeah it would be interesting.

Another reason why I am questioning or suspecting the ignition area is because I remember I had just went over some pot holes and it rattled the car and then it did the stalling thing.

 

So I wasn't able to work on it today since there were family gatherings going on, hopefully tomorrow I can check the CPS and maybe get my other Reatta out of storage and try swapping out a few major components like the ECM.

Thanks

[SCOTT's 90's]

Update!!!

So with the weather and Holidays I haven't had much time to do anything, but I did find a spare CPS that came with the other Reatta. I also ran into another issue, since I have had my hood up the whole time one day last week I went out into the garage and found the hood almost closed. My first thought was someone closed it, but when I went to lift it back up it just came back down .... AHHHHHH!!!

 

My struts gave out which is a bit weird since they look fairly new, come to find out they were replaced back in 2010. Wow really??? they didn't last very long so now I am in the market for either new ones or maybe a set from the PNP.

 

Does anyone know by chance what other models use the same struts for the hood?

 

I will try to get a few things done this week and hope to narrow down my cause.

Thanks

[AZVET]

One of the first things I did on my 88 when I bought it about 3 years ago was to purchase a set of used hood struts from member Jim here on the Forum.  They have worked well so far.  Be sure that you install the hardware on the new ones exactly the same way as the old ones or you will have a bulge in the hood where they attach.

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by AZVET (see edit history)

[SCOTT's 90's]

So the past couple days I have been working on some things

• I checked the Cam shaft sensor and magnet  and all is well with those - The magnet was a little dirty with some stuff stuck to it so I cleaned it up the best I could, but at least there are no cracks etc.

 

 

• I checked the Crankshaft sensor and cleaned it up a little too. I also unplugged it and added some di-electric grease to the terminals and plugged it back in, but without removing the harmonic balancer that was all I could do at this time. If further testing points me to the sensor being bad then I will have to replace it, but I think it is okay for the time being.

 

• I tested the ICM again and then tested for spark on the 1-3-5 plugs everything was normal.

 

• I cleaned the ignition cylinder the best I could and now the key goes in smooth and turns better.

 

So being very excited to check out my efforts hoping to have solved my issue I started it up and backed it out of the garage to let it idle for a moment. I got out and cleaned up the mess on the floor and after about 5 minutes the dreaded issue happened again ... IT JUST DIED!!! It was idling fine around 600rpm it was like someone just turned off the ignition, no sputtering or anything it just shut off. There was no indication on the IPC it had a problem, all normal.

I quickly attached the fuel pressure guage and turned off the ignition and turned it back on then checked the pressure - a solid 46psi, I then thought I would try to start it and nothing just cranking, so I waited a minute to try again and well guess what, it started - Like nothing ever happened! The fuel pressure is now reading 38psi (Running) which is normal, checked the codes and nothing. I then took it for a drive and accelerated aggressively. It performed well like a normal car, I went back home and parked it back in the garage -- back to the drawing board!

 

• I decided to remove the glove box and get at the BCM, checked the plugs and they were tight nothing out of the ordinary. I removed the plugs and then the BCM, I then removed the PROM cover and when I checked it by pressing each one down making sure they were seated both of them were raised a little bit ... Hmmmmm. They are seated now but not holding my breath that being the problem.

So that is as far as I have gone, I will re-install the BCM tomorrow and remove and check the ECM/ECC and a few other things before doing another test run. DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A SIMPLE BENCH TEST for these computers that doesn't require an oscilloscope? If not I will try to do the on board tests, a little difficult with only one person...lol.

 

[SCOTT's 90's]

UPDATE! Dec. 10th

 

So to catch up those who might be interested in this - I last decided to remove both the BCM & ECM's to check them and make sure the plugs were tight etc... Then I posted a question about bubbling on the back of the ECM's circuit board (which turned out to be normal), but I am a little bit suspicious about it.

 

After that I really wanted to swap the modules with my other Reatta, but it is in storage and the weather has been snowy, cold and smoggy. So I broke down and decided to order a refurbished ECM. Well it showed up today and I switched out the PROM's and temporarily installed it (It is just kinda hanging down from the dash). I connected the battery and crossed my fingers and turned on the ignition to check for codes - No codes other than the normal 552, so I cleared the codes and then started her up. She fired up quickly and I let her idle for a bit until she was almost at normal temps. Then I got brave and decided to take her for a spin to the store and back.

She ran great no problems so far! I will continue to take her on small trips to see if all holds out and the issues do not come back - I hope they don't.

 

I will keep those updated.

Thank You