22 Caddy's "minor" backfire

[hidden_hunter]

A number of people were following my thread about the 1922 Cadillac 5 passenger coupe that I imported from the US into Australia and the progress about getting it back on the road.

 

So the car was "ready to drive and enjoy" - when it got here I noticed a few very odd things after starting it up (which to its credit it did start right up even with old US gas). For instance one side of the engine took a very long time to get hot and when it did the two mid cylinders on one of the banks remained cold enough to touch with an unprotected hand. This was accompanied by the occasional pop back that sounded like something you'd here on a hit and miss engine.

 

So with the help of the Cadillac yahoo group, I started taking the motor apart to see what the issue could be. The first thing I came across was a number of stuck and stiff valves which refused to budge, even after a healthy dose of ATF/Acetone. So then the question became, well what has that possibly damaged in the rest of the motor? Cadillac obviously did not think people would need to be inspecting the rockers or cam shaft very often, so you literally have to take pretty much the entire engine apart using a guide that tells you to use special cadillac tools for most jobs (like cut out a rivet in the timing chain and then reattach in situ using cadillac rivet tool)

 

So what was the cause of the minor pop back and cold cylinder? A totally destroyed and snapped off rocker gear - I'm genuinely amazed that the thing actually ran and didn't even sound bad.

 

The rocker gear looks like it has been repaired at some stage in its life (it looks like a really old repair) that has failed again (probably due to the stuck valves) and just totally snapped off the casting! The rockers themselves are in pretty good condition and it hasn't mangled up the block too badly but definitely a nasty surprise. 

 

So now I'm on the hunt for a a part that's only used on the Type 61 Cadillac, or trying to work out how to get someone to repair this so it actually lasts!

 

It's amazing it even started let alone that it only had a small occasional backfire...  

[Taylormade]

Oh, man, what a mess.  Keep us informed on how this works out.

[Mike36]

Sorry to hear of your bad luck. Hope you have a better experience getting her repaired.

[60FlatTop]

I have done a lot of repairs on old cars and it always seems like someone has been in there before me so I am repairing a repair. It is an honest pleasure to fix something that broke the first time.

 

Your pictures don't look too scary. I would put one of the existing good assemblies through the bosses of the damaged side and look everything over to assure only the shaft mounts were broken. Then it is a matter of machining a cap to locate the shaft, like an OHC cap. Mill the broken area flat and take a tip from the guys whom are fixing Cadillac's Northstar mistake- use a coarse thread to hold the new caps on. If I sent that out to a machine shop I would expect it back in a week to 10 days.

 

Working on a Cadillac where the designers didn't think anyone would go, check out replacing a starter on a Northstar, under the intake manifold....

 

Bernie

[Ivan Saxton]

You will find that V63 is the same detail, though the split plane counterbalanced crankshaft makes them a very different engine, though the same externally and with common blocks, heads, and accessories.   The engine of my 1916 is a bit hard to check, but the rocker assembly is probably the same from that far back.  If so, Francis Ransley I Tasmania may have or know of spares to help you.   Scott and Craig Emmerson have their grandfather's V63 in better condition now than Henry was ever able to achieve;  though Henry used it as an everyday car virtually from the time he bought it,  and we have better resources and equipment now than then. Scott & Craig will have at least one spare engine.  There should have been another, but Henry's nephew, before he became known as "Dollar Bill", sent one away for a pittance to Joe Drage, who had an aircraft collection in Northern Victoria.   Tom Henderson may be able to help trace that.   Russel Holden at Mudgee, who has a lot of Cadillac interest, may be able to help or sell you something.  It is not impossible to repair your casting.  The rollers look as though they may be better replaced. Bohler have a good 2% carbon, 2% Chromium steel that you machine before heat treatment.  You finish grind them in two stacks of eight in a centreless grinder.     You really need to talk to me or visit.   I presume you are in Melbourne, and I am only 70 miles from Melbourne CBD.  I have had Cadillacs including V63 since about 1961, and I have a V61 project,  so I am as familiar with them as anyone here.  There is a wear depression on the visible end of your rocker which should not be there.   If you wish to speak, give me a landline number and a convenient time to ring so I can help you.    Make sure all is kept clean inside your water jackets.  A few people have cracked cylinder heads.  The combustion chamber geometry is far from ideal, and the compression ration is low compared to the 1926-7 314 A,B, &C, which used a Rickardo patent combustion chamber.  So a lot of fuel energy goes as waste heat through the radiator and exhaust.  It does not hurt to stellite and re-face your valves, as long as the stems are not badly worn.   Regards,   Ivan Saxton

[hidden_hunter]

On 3/13/2017 at 11:12 AM, Ivan Saxton said:

You will find that V63 is the same detail, though the split plane counterbalanced crankshaft makes them a very different engine, though the same externally and with common blocks, heads, and accessories.   The engine of my 1916 is a bit hard to check, but the rocker assembly is probably the same from that far back.  If so, Francis Ransley I Tasmania may have or know of spares to help you.   Scott and Craig Emmerson have their grandfather's V63 in better condition now than Henry was ever able to achieve;  though Henry used it as an everyday car virtually from the time he bought it,  and we have better resources and equipment now than then. Scott & Craig will have at least one spare engine.  There should have been another, but Henry's nephew, before he became known as "Dollar Bill", sent one away for a pittance to Joe Drage, who had an aircraft collection in Northern Victoria.   Tom Henderson may be able to help trace that.   Russel Holden at Mudgee, who has a lot of Cadillac interest, may be able to help or sell you something.  It is not impossible to repair your casting.  The rollers look as though they may be better replaced. Bohler have a good 2% carbon, 2% Chromium steel that you machine before heat treatment.  You finish grind them in two stacks of eight in a centreless grinder.     You really need to talk to me or visit.   I presume you are in Melbourne, and I am only 70 miles from Melbourne CBD.  I have had Cadillacs including V63 since about 1961, and I have a V61 project,  so I am as familiar with them as anyone here.  There is a wear depression on the visible end of your rocker which should not be there.   If you wish to speak, give me a landline number and a convenient time to ring so I can help you.    Make sure all is kept clean inside your water jackets.  A few people have cracked cylinder heads.  The combustion chamber geometry is far from ideal, and the compression ration is low compared to the 1926-7 314 A,B, &C, which used a Rickardo patent combustion chamber.  So a lot of fuel energy goes as waste heat through the radiator and exhaust.  It does not hurt to stellite and re-face your valves, as long as the stems are not badly worn.   Regards,   Ivan Saxton

 

 

Hi Ivan, sorry for the delayed response been very busy with work and chasing down leads! I've always ogled your list of cars, so I'd love to visit sometime - I'm in the south eastern suburbs of Melbourne so it wouldn't be too far

 

Scott graciously pulled apart one of his v63 engines but unfortunately it turns out that they have corrected the design flaw in the v63 motors. The rockers are all offset rather than inline like they are on mine - so I suspect it was a known failure point on the earlier cars. 

 

I took the heads to a specialist in Ringwood, I suspect it's not going to be a cheap exercise - he's doing a full quote to refurb the head and check if the valves are still good. He believed that they were the original valves that came with the car so he would like to reuse them if possible but time will tell. 

 

He did say he could repair the rocker cover, but it's going to be pretty pricey so he recommended trying to find a replacement part if possible. It does seem like it's a part that's unique to the Type 61 as well unfortunately. I'm still reaching out to people that may have one lying around

[hidden_hunter]

So the good news:

 

Got the heads back yesterday, and they've come up fantastically. The original valves and springs were able to be reused and he believed that they were all original to the car - the bores showed some light pitting but nothing too bad once they had been honed and it didn't need to be bored out or new pistons. I also managed to track down a set of rings for it and a new old stock pair of head gaskets

 

 

 

The bad news:

Still haven't tracked down the broken top cover yet and I'm running out of leads. I did have a scammer contact me on the forums though yesterday