Do U Want a 2004 4-4-2?

[Steve Moskowitz]

Just trying to get a pulse and not sure if this site is the way to do it but....As most of you know, Oldsmobile is making collector's editions of all their final product. The Aurora will end in '03 and will be made into a collector's car similar to the Final 500 Intrigues. The same thing is planned for Bravada and Silhouette. However, I am finally getting some hope that the Alero may be something very, very special. Oldsmobile management is finally giving some serious consideration to amking a 4-4-2 or similar car as the final Oldsmobiles ever to be produced (hope that gets changed in years to come). What do u guys think? What is the demand...now don't get crazy and expect too much of a performance option but something for sure.

[rocketraider]

Had the toothpaste and laundry detergent wunderkinden thought about this ten years ago, maybe it would be an RPO kicking a Mustang's behind and not a last days of Pompeii product going out with a bang and a whimper.<P>I'm sorry, Steve. I've had less than zero confidence in GM management for a long time- ever since they made every division sell Cavaliers. I don't see them ever again being farsighted enough to successfully pull off something like a performance Alero 442 that wouldn't embarrass the name further.<P>That said, I might consider such a car as a new purchase. Put a blown V6 in it, 5-speed and 3.42 final drive, the best handling and brakes they can engineer into it, wrap it in a good color and make it affordable- maybe they'll have something.<P>I'm not gonna hold my breath.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Glenn...first of all it probably will be a mild 4-4-2 but I did drive an Alero with a Northstar V-8 at Lansing. Slick set-up and sounded beauuuuuuutiful! 'bout wet my pants! Doing this car will have to take into account many different retstrictions BUT there are possibilities to make this a pretty impressive car and under 25K.<P>Dick already had done a blown one (sounds awesome) as well.<P>Anyway, on another subject. I understand that you are officially the moderator. You MUST get an article in JWO about the site, its uses, etc. I think some in the club feel threatened about this communication but I only see it as an enhancement for OCA. Also a way to get a lot more members .<P>All I can say about the people remaining at Olds is that they care...and are trying! <p>[ 08-13-2002: Message edited by: oldscarnut ]

[86 2dr.ltd]

Well you guys obviously are more up on the Olds stuff I'm just an owner. We currently own the most awsome Olds of our desires and are not new car buyers.So my opinions are irrelevent.BUT!<P>The Alero is the only 2dr. they make but it is the least favorite body style to me. Why!why!why? is all you can see from the rear tailights. It looks like a fly staring back at you.<P>The Aurora is the car that makes me tremble.<BR>The Intrigue is the sensible yet sharp.<BR>The Alero is 4 wheels and 2 tailights no its not that bad but I'm willing to bet it would have been more popular if theyed trimmed 2" off the top of those lights.<P>I know little about the modern GM drivetrains but any thing taged 442 should have the 4.0 or 3.5 designed for Olds DOHC engine. Not the designed for Buick SC 3800.<P>One last thing if you guys could.If its still on line. What was the site that had the special equiped new line-up? The ones that were painted red w/ground effects and handling packages. I would like to down load some pictures on to floppy before they vanish forever.<P>Arent foolish executive allowed to CHANGE THEIR MIND

[s.zaban]

Steve, Take a look at that new buick with the port holes , new grille, "WARMED OVER" ultra. do you really think they can do something with a 442, let them alone, and keep the 442 memories were they are. I'm sorry but GM has not inpressed me for years now.

[rocketraider]

I'm working up an article about this forum for next available issue of <I>Journey With Olds</I>. It may be next month's depending on when Clay's deadline is. When I wrote the "Regency Ramblings" column, I had to get it in by the 5th of the month. I enjoyed writing that but between work and family issues, finally realised I didn't have enough time. Time has opened up a bit now.

[Guest]

I really don't want to see a "last, going away" 442. I think GM would do more harm to the great legacy of the 442, rather than let Oldsmobile go out with a bang.

[Guest]

Steve, I am still realing from the bills I had to pay on my Aurora that the General couldn't fix. It cost me thousands and still ran like crap. GM is not willing to support the Oldsmobile products that they are currently making. The 442's of yesteryear had a great reputation. The General would ruin that.

[Guest Dave Wyatt]

GM/Olds has already whored out the 4-4-2 moniker when they put it on those front wheel drive Quad 4 things. Didn't work then and I doubt they would do any better now. I know some of you liked those little 4 bangers, but the 4-4-2 belongs on V8 equipped cars and nothing less. Let it rest in peace.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Wow...to paraphrase John Rock, "you guys must be some p....d-off cowboys"! I have about 50 personal e-mails from guys willing to put a deposit on the car now...without knowing for sure what it will be! <P>Everyone has a right to their own opinion and I am trying to gauge what as many people think as possible. Everyone said the Final 500 Intrigues would not be popular and I sold my 4 immediately and had requests for 10 more.<P>I have several requests already for one of the Final 500 Auroras which will be produced by Easter of '03.<P>The fact is that the Alero will be the final Oldsmobile produced as we now know it. Many of us hope the marquee will be brought back at some future time and there is reason to think that it will be possible. The final cars of the Division should be special in some way...which way. Which way will make them more collectable? That is the question.<P>I have an advantage on you folks that unfortunately I can not share at this time but the hopes are that whatever this car is called it WILL be special and affordable as well.<P>I understand there are a lot of unhappy folks out there with the General...I am not sure anyone has more of a right to be upset than me. After 30 years of being a dealer, 4 as a Olds service rep and one of the first President's of OCA I will lose everything I have ever worked for by this decision. I have had to live with the poor marketing, bad product decisions, sloppy workmanshi and quality of the 80's etc. It still does not change MY view and my love for this marquee. I will always restore and collect Oldsmobiles exclusively because that is my interest. <P>Sorry for rambling guys......

[s.zaban]

They better do it quickly, (what this unique 442 last Alero is) I'm not sure my present Aurora will make it till then, and the resale on my Aurora is terrible. Last olds dealer did not even want to take it in trade. My neighbor has 2 Auroras, another neighbor has one, we all had to get complete air conditioning replaced at a cost of $1200.00 . All our cars had under 80,000 miles. ALL FOUR OF US.WITHIN 1 MILE OF EACH OTHER.Does that tell you something.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Steve, naturally the last Alero's will not be built until the 2004 model year, that is the plan now. <P>We are one of the top 100 volume Olds dealers in the country and have been for some time. We sell a ton of Auroras and do extremely well with them as used vehicles. Sadly, due to circumstances none of our cars are having the greatest resale value today. It is a shame. I am surprised at the a/c comment, we have had very few problems in that area in our service department and have a lot of very, very high mileage Auroras in the 95-98 years. The only complaint of any significance has been compressors but that can be said of any of the GM models. That is a fairly expensive repair but around $800 in my service department.

[Guest]

Hey...Thought it was cool that your member # is one before mine...OCA #2587!...As for the 442..Its over..Let it rest...unless they are thinking of RWD and a V8...Just my 2 cents worth.

[s.zaban]

Maybe we should forward these posts to GM!!!?? Do you think they could learn something here???!! Or would they still prefer to spend big BUCKS to be told the same thing???!!!

[Guest Dave Wyatt]

Yes, we are p!ssed off cowboys! Other than a few details and exceptions, Oldsmobile is just another GM clone. The cars of days gone by had individuality and personality, but by the mid 80's the lines were blurring. When GM went to the corporate V8, aka Chevy, it was over for a lot of us. Other than trim, one make was the same as the other. As an example, Mercury had a 5.0 Capri for a number of years, but what do you see everywhere? Rustangs! Why bother with the different brand when it was still your basic Ford? GM did the same. Why pursue an Olds, Buick or whatever, when you could save a few bucks and have the generic Chevy version. It had a Chevy engine anyway so why confuse folks? I love my Olds and all other Oldsmobiles that are truly Oldsmobiles, but GM ruined what was once something wonderful.<P>The Alero and Intigues are just slightly different versions of other GM offerings and the Aurora is overpriced for the family man, but it is mostly Olds. Great marketing job GM <p>[ 08-16-2002: Message edited by: 4-4-2 Dave ]

[Guest]

Howdy --

Y'alls sentiments also concur with others in the hobby, related to Oldsmobile or not. The one orientation of GM seems to be to try to save money and utilize their resources the best, nothing wrong with that but it is how they have tried to do it that has caused the problems and has somewhat orchestrated the demise of Olds and decreased market share of GM in general. In many cases, Olds did not get the new products or features it needed to stay competitive due to the financial issues inside GM, which group was controlling the Board (accountants or engineers--read the DeLorean book "On A Clear Day, You Can See General Motors for more information on that deal), and how they needed to pay the share holders their quarterly dividends to protect the stock prices. It all figures into a myriad of things that led to what we have today.

GM has been on a continued "downsizing" for many decades now. Jack Welch and his tactics in GE did little to really help GM in this venture. Much seemed to be tokenism, to me, that was ballyhooed to have been major advances as some of the real problem areas were seemingly ignored. I've observed that whenever the financial fortunes of GM are not too well, they'll start snipping at the labor times for warranty repairs or mess with parts stock order allowances or similar. Those things show up real quick on the profit/loss statements, but spending a few dimes more for a longer lasting part that will ensure greater customer satisfaction and decreased warranty costs won't show up until the next vehicle purchase is made. Everything is in the short term.

Personally, I liked the Intrigue very much but it never was developed to its full potential. Just as Olds marketing tried to position the Aurora against Lexus (which has been in Buick's sites for a good while, styling wise) and Infinity, yet totally ignored the scrappy Chrysler LHS for less money and equivalent performance, except straight line performance. They might have tried, in hindsight, to emulate the Jag XJ-6 instead just as the Intrigue could have been upgraded to do battle with the Lincoln LS or Jag S-Type. "International" to GM Marketing of the time seemed to mean "Oriental" and not "Eurpoean", it seems.

Figure in how the new flow of platforms affected Olds, plus the much mentioned lack of driver's side airbags in GM as a whole as Chairman Lee said "Everyone of My Chryslers has a driver's side airbag on national television." Olds was the neglected stepchild. And then there was the use of funds to rebuild Cadillac in the '80s while Olds had dull products--durable but dull--and tried to lever the "Cutlass" name on lackluster cars that had features without the same level of refinement as the Japanese cars they were trying to sell against. Now, Olds is gone and Cadillac has been reinvented again.

There was also a Quad8 in the Quad4 engine family. An instant 300 horsepower via the front wheels of an Olds 98 would have been neat, but it didn't happen due to, perhaps, internal hierarchy that would have stepped on Cadillac's toes as having the most technologically advanced V-8 at the time. Not to mention that GM HydraMatic didn't have anything to handle that much power. Then, later came NorthStar. Olds had been the technology leader in GM up until that time.

I know, the Quad4 did have problems later on, but at the time it was introduced, it complimented the redesign of the 3.8L Buick V-6 into the high tech engine it became. A Quad8 would have complete the cycle.

I think a NorthStar Intrigue, as I understand that Olds OSV had one done that way--pretty easily as I understand. But by the time that stuff happened, Olds was probably using that to do development work that would show up on the next generation Grand Prix GTP.

As for the Auroras, they have been durable cars yet sometimes pricey to fix when they do break. We picked up Olds late in the mix with the realignments of GM divisions, swapping Buick for Olds between our two stores. The NorthStars have been durable in the earlier versions too, yet the later ones have had a few issues.

Perhaps the worst thing on the NorthStar is changing the water pump. Most techs mutilate the poor thing getting it out of the housing or even break the special tool that is supposed to work so easily.

Just some thoughts on the end of Olds. Remember that any special editions need to be discussed and made happen NOW as GM's already planning for 5 years in the future on other deals. Let's give Oldsmobile the proud send-off it deserves and cherish the previous cars and memories they have given us. Retrench, Regroup, and enjoy the Olds of our past and not too distant future.

Also, be aware that there will be some Intrigues and such coming off-lease from GM and will probably show up in the GM Certified Used Car network in the near future! We currently have a fully loaded 2000 Intrigue GLS, Sterling Edition with about 60,000 miles on our lot for about $15K. A nice car and a deal!

Worst thing about the 3.5L V-6 is that the oil filter it uses is used exclusively for that motor ONLY. Might buy some while they're still around if you have one of those cars.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

NTX5467 from the BCA General Forum

[Steve Moskowitz]

Do not disagree with a lot you had to say BUT the purpose of my thread was not to talk about the past...can't change it. There still are some die-hard Olds fans out there that want a new car and want a collector car from this generation. The Intrigue 500 models went very fast in this neck of the woods and several OCA members purchased one of the special editions.

Plans for the final Auroras are being finalized now and what I know to be the plan is this: Same color as the Intrigue but the interior will be nuetral instead of the gray. Special wheels, embroidery and emblems will be included. I have two customers already for these cars which will be produced by Easter.

There are also plans for final editions to the Silhouette and Bravada which PROBABLY will follow the path of the previous cars.

However, there seems (non-withstanding the few replies on this site) a real interest to do something different with the Alero. Most of the folks that have contacted me and have discussed this program have had serious interest in seeing the FINAL 500 cars produced by Oldsmobile be really something special and hopefully collectable. They will not satisfy every W-30 guy or people that want a rear wheel drive product that is reminescent of the 70's. Many of us do have a desire to see a car that is distinctive enough to purchase as our last NEW Oldsmobile.

By the way, the OSV's that Dick built had absolutely no relationship to any other or any future product of another division. There was some very serious discussion going on about making a series of OSV's along with the Alero convertible as production vehicles that would halo the rest of the cars. If we had more time I think part or all of that program would have survived...certainly if Lutz had come aboard sooner.

If the REAL story about what happended to Oldsmobile in the 80's ever gets told along with the innerworkings of GM during Zarella's time, it will make for some very interesting but upsetting reading.

[Guest]

I concur, the past is "in the books" and there is little we can change regarding the future of Olds, but what time there is for input on the Final 500s is also drawing short.

I think that a really neat Alero sport sedan/coupe would be a great way to end things. But I also know that it will need to be done with the existing hardware, but doing something neat like a supercharged EcoTec 4-cylinder (using the new GM Performance Parts kit, that is an approved GM warrantiable item) or maybe even something with a 3800 Buick (listed on the GMPowertrains site under the list of "other" engines) might be appropriate. The 3800 V-6 is also sold in Australia under the EcoTec nomenclature. I also know that whatever happens, it will need to probably have an automatic transmission for general saleability.

As for a name for this upgraded performance Alero, that would be debatable. It should have something that did not tie it to the performance models of the past, but could be billed as carrying on that Innovative Performance Heritage of the Oldsmobile Legacy to the automotive world. It would need to be something distinctive instead of just "GT", for example. I suspect that "OSV" would be out too, as would "Rocket".

Taking Chrysler's lead (as they did with the great 300M ads to tie that car to the earlier letter series 300s) might not be a bad idea. Having Dr. Oldsmobile in the ads laying his hands on the last high performance Olds might be neat, as he waved goodbye. Naming it with the "W" nomenclature would work, but what neat option number could be used? Billing it as "The Last W-Machine" could be worked into the advertising too. But, it would need to be worthy of that name.

Personally, when I saw the first picture of the Alero coupe, I thought it was doing good to have the same general lines of the Intrigues (which I liked a LOT). The lineage was there. Yes, the tailights are a little big, but that might have been a concession to the Aleros sold in Europe under the Chevrolet nameplate.

When I finally got an Alero from the National Car Rental Emerald Isle for a weekend rental, I was impressed. It's a much better thought out vehicle than it's sibling Grand Am on the interior, yet shares the same mechanicals and suspension calibrations with the Grand Am. In other words, a great "Step Ahead" type of car for people needing a vehicle in that size class! The only down side to me is the trend toward what I consider dull seat upholstery that was begun with the Intrigue. The Intrigue really needed the fancy leather interior that the Grand Prix had, but got simple panels sewn together instead. The Intrigue needed the trip computers the Pontiacs and Chevrolets and Buicks have, but didn't. As I said, the potential was there but apparently no one had the desire to develope it--signals of what was to come, especially when it didn't get OnStar when other similar GM vehicles did.

Somewhere along the line, I ended up with something with the new EcoTec 4 cylinder in it. Many of the people lamented the loss of some horsepower and torque numbers over the old Quad OHC motor, but I can tell you that the new EcoTec 4 cylinder runs equally as good as the new Toyota VVT-I 4 cylinder. What power the new GM motor has is much more eager to be used than what the older motor was. Go into the J-body forum site and you'll see that some of the guys have already begun tweaking their Cavaliers with those motors with good results.

The DeLorean book I mentioned has been out of print from the early '80s, but is still in the Barnes&Noble used book network. Putting that book together with the first Iacocca book and then the later Lutz book, "GUTS", you can get a good idea of how things happen in the automotive manufacturers' world.

Now, back to those last Aleros, as I recall there's not a really heavy duty transaxle available in that model or one that would fit inside the subframe. Hopefully, the existing unit could be beefed up to handle about 225 horsepower or so (or GMPowertrain has something waiting to be produced?). Then some KONI dampers for the suspension, some GM Performance Parts drilled and slotted brake rotors (front and rear) with upgraded GM pads. A high flow catalytic converter and complimentary dual exhaust (which splits behind the converter in a nice manner instead of the way they typically have been configured), some BFG Comp T/A KDW tires of an appropriate size, and maybe some other respectable appearance things. Basically, a luxury compact with a good bit of "tuner" parts under the skin to let it attain the performance potential (maybe a top speed of about 140mph???) before Pontiac might do that with a future Grand Am. Something that would knock the socks of many of the Hondas and such while giving the upcoming Neon SRT-4 a good run for it's money, but with more luxury and style than the Neon! It's a doable deal, just as saving Olds would have been a few years ago, we just need to make it happen! Maybe there needs to be a Final 1000 if the package comes out good enough?

In other words, let the Final Aleros "Lead The Way" and show that performance is alive and well in that class of vehicle at GM--even if it is the last Oldmobile being built. Perhaps Mark Reuss will assist in that situation?

I concur that a book on how Olds fell from grace might rival the book on the Chrysler "merger" for upsetting reading. From what I understand, you'll have to go back to about 1992 to start things off, or perhaps 1990 to see things start to take shape. In the issue that "Automotive News" did on Oldsmobile a while back, John Rock was quoted as saying he should have fired the advertising agency that came up with "Not Your Father's Oldsmobile" for the tag line.

When I first heard that "Not Your Father's Oldsmobile" line, I thought they were crazy! What if father's Olds had been a J-2 optioned Olds or a W-30 or a high horsepower Toronado? I wanted to wring their necks back then! In any event, getting such a book written would be a massive undertaking as there would be many "5th Amendment" comments, I suspect, if they said anyting at all. Who would want to divulge the "private agendas" of those involved?

Anyway, I hope the last Aleros can really showcase the performance and innovation and upscale heritage of Oldsmobile in a credible manner. Let's make it happen!

Thanks for your time and consideration, again.

NTX5467 from the BCA General Forum

[Steve Moskowitz]

All I can say is that hopefully, the last Oldsmobiles will be worthy of our great heritage.

I not only read John's book, I new him. We were one of the first Delorean dealers as well....sadly, John's great career at GM has been tarnished by mistakes he has made since. To those of us who knew him "in the day" he was a breath of fresh air....he let a lot of people down.

[86 2dr.ltd]

Perhaps you guys could explain a little here for me. The highways around here in the Capital District of NY, Albany area . were until only the past few years littered with 80's 88,98, Cutlass Supremes(RWD & FWD) & Chalais.So I know they sold tons of cars in the 80's. Sightings are still not that rare today, but most are being retired after 12-17 yrs of service. Is this the same time they devoloped Saturn? Hmm! Then today I see Achievas and newer Chalais and Supremes all the time. With the last 88LS and LSS very common and 98's occasionally. Then with the latest the Intrigues and Aleros are everywhere, Auroras are less common as they should be,just like Vettes. I dont remember seeing many Toros when I was a kid either.

So my question - How is it that they didnt make any money or sell enough cars? I just think that is an excuse for money spent elsewhere than on the cars that made it. But theres obviously much I dont know about. Is it possible for you guys to sum it up besides the poor advertising and cheap oppointments thing. Theres got to be a real truth here somewhere. Or do I just live in an area where there are more Oldsmobiles on the road. Cause I mean their everywhere. So are alot of other cars but Oldsmobile are holding their own. Then if you were to do a GM census I really believe GM might win out. Whats the problem?

BTW I dont see Saabs and Saturns all over the place. Some Saturns but its a poor showing (in more ways then one).

[Steve Moskowitz]

It would take hours to sum up the "Oldsmobile situation" but I will very briefly try and give you some background what led to the decision.

Oldsmobile's success led to some arrogance in thinking. This occured in the late 70's and 80's. Management felt they could do no wrong in what was the hottest franchise in the business. Oldsmobile's General Sales Manager at the time incurred the wrath of one of GM's corporate leaders and he made sure that Olds did not get the future product it deserved. Olds also tried to be all things to all people. it resulted in too many models, too many build combinations which mostly did not sell at all. Olds also continued to employ the same advertsing agency that they still have today. The agency was qualified but most of us felt a change was needed or that at least we needed to get their "A" people on our account.

The quality problems of the 80's also let to customer's leaving us in record numbers. Once loyal to the core, they would not live with these problems.

As things got more difficult they brought Rock in. He eliminated a ton of slow selling models and completely refocused our product line. Instead of fighting against Buick, Chev and Pontiac it was decided that Oldsmobile should be the import fighter. This was a painful decision because it led to up abandoning a lot of our current owners but the upside potential was far greater. If Olds had been able to make headway into the Honda, Toyota and Nissan sales it would have been a huge win for GM and a much larger market for dealers. Needless to say, we did a crap job of getting it done.

Probably the single biggest problem we had was in our marketing and advertising. Olds had some of the worst possible people in those positions and it showed. The whole system on how ad campaigns and marketing programs were decided upon also caused us to be somewhat ineffective. The death blow to us, in my opinion, was the hiring of Karen Francis. Her hiring gave us somone with little to no automobile experience, arrogance beyond belief and an executive who was only looking out for her next promotion.

Rick Wagoner continues to take COMPLETE credit for the decision not to invest in new products for Oldsmobile. His thinking apparently was that there was not enough resources within GM to give every division new product, the timing for a write-off was perfect and he felt Wall Street would look favorably upon the decision. The fact is that Saturn was losing far more money than Oldsmobile and other Divisions had profitability problems as well. However,instead of re-inventing Olds with great product and marketing, Wagoner took the "easy" way out.

There were people within GM who disagreed and Lutz has stated that if he were at GM at the time he would have found another way to resolve the problems without closing Oldsmobile.

This is a pretty simplistic accounting of the events but will give you a flavor of what I saw as a dealer and member of Oldsmobile's national board for many years.

[Guest]

Insightful post, OCN. There is one major "contributor" to Olds' demise you didn't credit enough - GM purchasing. GM is mistrusted and disliked among the supplier community due to years of bullying and out-and-out dishonesty. Their track record is clearly to buy the cheapest thing they can get - how could Olds hope to compete against the transplants and imports with that mentality? Buick, offering (too) similar cars, got to target a much more easily satisfied customer base and survive in a more sheltered part of the market. Track the market share in cars only and you can see how well this has worked for GM overall.

[86 2dr.ltd]

OK , so Oldsmobile sales were way down? and I'm in a high Oldsmobile buying area?

are they still way down?

Dont you think GM will loose more market percentage because come 2004 they will not be selling Oldsmobiles?

How many Oldsmobiles are being sold this year?

With out those sales how much market percentage would they have lost?

I guess further investment in upgraded products is the issue?

[Guest]

GM, not just Old's, share of the car market has been declining for years.

I don't think making more versions of the same Ponuickmobiles is the answer.

As far as the last Olds' being more than a trim and decal job, I wouldn't hold your breath - why would GM spend engineering money on a car line that they are discontinuing?

[Guest]

Thats just it the last Oldsmobiles were not Pontiac/Buicks they had some of their own engines and body panels. Alero I dont know , and a Blazer is a Blazer , but the Aurora and Intrigue were their own car only sharing a platform as GM cars have always had. Even the last 88's & LeSabres, Park Aves & 98 had completely different body styles same engines but at least it was better than tailights and headerpanels for nearly 20 years. They were headed in a good direction.

Loseing market share in a growing market that has more car manufactures does not mean you are not selling cars.

In the 60's when everything was dandy for the big three most familys had 1 car, and most of them came from Detroit. Today they have 3 if theres a teenager around. So what if there not all GM's. In some driveways they may very well be all GM's.

The markets been diluted with more Japanese models and more access to the Germancars but then there is more cars on the road. Of course market share is going to decline , its been diluted.

[Steve Moskowitz]

[Guest]

Intrigue was a common platform car. Olds argued for an initial exclusive on the 3.5 engine - the right thing to do in my opinion if the divisions are to have any real identities. GM decided to cancel the engine because it didn't sell in higher numbers, not being shared. Interesting logic. First generation Aurora was a distinctive car - the restyle was a move back towards similarity. I drove one of these on a trip, and the quality, especially in those purchasing-beloved shared components, was not so good.

Nonetheless, I do think GM shot the wrong division. Olds was doing more than the others to present a modern product line. I think the need to put Cadillac on intensive care hurt Olds (Top division went from 50 years leading segment sales to 5th in 2 years). The rumored merger of Olds with Saturn may have made sense - eliminate Alero and the lines overlap very little. But it really wouldn't save much money.

Now as to market share - if your core market is growing and your percentage is shrinking, that's losing share. "Dilution" is an excuse meaning the new competitors are kicking your butt. Maybe Lutz's recent comments on doing basics better instead of adding more frills will sink in, even if it's too late for Olds.

[Guest Skyking]

Simple answer........Let the 4-4-2 R.I.P...

[Steve Moskowitz]

I do not have the exact numbers at hand but will post them in a few day...sales are down significantly but not surprising. Many dealers have turned their franchise in and most of the dual dealers have paid less attention to selling Oldsmobiles. There are not many of us single-line dealers left...but there were only 64 of us when this thing went down,

Anonymous, Olds did NOT want exclusive use of the 3.5! We got stuck with the cost when Buick and Pontiac would not go along with the program. Gave us a very expensive engine.

Also, the proposals surrounding a special edition Alero will not result in significant engineering costs. This easily could turn into a second-stage program if the right formula came up.

[NTX5467]

The main reason you saw so many overhead camshaft motors after the "turbo days" was due to cold start emissions. The turbo cars' turbocharger acted like a heat sink and resulted in not enough heat getting to the catalytic converter to get it fired off quickly enough. The 4 valve per cylinder motors had similar or higher power without that emisisons test penalty. Add in the fact that most other "high line" makers which competed with Olds had 4 valve/cylinder OHC or DOHC motors and you see why the "Intrigue V-6" (aka, "ShortStar) existed.

Reports were that the 3.5L would replace the supercharged 3800 Buick motor, but also with a supercharger for a "double whammy" effect, it seems. That probably was the master plan before it was altered in the later years.

If you look at GM Parts price list prices, there's about a $700.00/car additional cost for the 3.5L V-6 over the non-supercharged 3800 V-6 (with about 15 horsepower less power). Doesn't take a rocket scientist accountant to seize on those numbers! Yes, the 3.5L was a more refined motor with greater performance potential and finally let the Intrigue go head to head with Chrysler on the LH cars in equipment specs, but accountants (with all due respect) can't justify spending more money for "the same thing" they can get less expensively. One reason the Intrigue and Grand Prix were paired in the same plant could have been a precursor of the fact that the Grand Prix was supposed to later use the 3.5L supercharged motor in a later Grand Prix GTP. Pontiac would be a better use of that motor anyway than would Buick.

If you have followed the evolution of the Intrigue, many of the Intrigue-specific items on the vehicle have been slowly and quietly replaced with items from Grand Prixs. The Intrigue-specific 4-stage-valving front struts gave way to the Grand Prix front struts a few years ago. The electric fuel door lock was deleted. There are some other items, but they elude me right now. Yet the more expensive Intrigue-style fold down rear seat is now used on Regals too.

When Zarella mentioned that they were loosing money on every Olds they built, I strongly questioned that statement (used as justification to end Olds production). Later, when I finally got around to looking at main vehicle components on the W-platform, the only significant thing was the 3.5L V-6 engine. Everything else priced out to be the same, at least in the GM Parts Price schedule for replacement parts. I suspect that when a Regal GS and an Intrigue GLS sold for similar sticker prices, the engine obviously made the Olds less profitable. But those days are behind us! It would have been nice to see Lutz mold Olds into a more European oriented car line that could compete head to head with Jaguar and Mercedes--if GM could fund a few extra things here or there to achieve that end, but the plans for the Sigma platform were already in place so Olds again seemed to sacrifice for the good of other GM divisions and their future.

Lutz, or any other car-oriented person, could have tweaked Olds and put some new advertising in place to get things moving again--for very little additional costs that were not already budgeted. The problem was an observed "parade" of upper management through the division (of which Ms. Francis was one). It's hard to build morale with the troops when these changes are happening all of the time. Add in the fact that many of the "better people" left after the first rumors of Olds allegedly being cut in '92 (when John Rock supposedly said "Over my dead body!") and you end up with a somewhat compromised situation. But, just because some of the people left didn't necessarily mean the remainder were incapable of doing great things either. It all comes down to "direction" from management.

GM has the capabilities to do some neat things with the last Aleros and let things go out on a positive note.

With respect to the comment about how many of the earlier Olds models are still running around, I've seen quite a few Achievas lately--many of which still have good paint and appear to be "estate" cars getting back into circulation. They aren't being driven by old people either! Interesting that they finally hit their intended target market in later life. All of the marketing whizes talk about "old" people being the only ones to buy Olds and Buicks, but if you look at who the "second owners" are, they are typically much younger that the first owners of the cars--a fact that has yet to be fully documented, but can be readily observed in the various W-body forums and such on the various GM enthusiast websites. Many of these forum participants are equally as enthusiastic about those makes as the traditional new car customers were in prior times. The challenge is to channel those younger people into newer versions of their existing GM cars--plus the respective national car club organizations such as OCA and BCA.

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467 from the BCA General Forum

[Guest]

I really think that the brain's over there at GM just need to let the legacy of the 442 rest and be remembered for what it once was and not for some 1/2 cocked immitation. There is no way that they are ever going to give the name 442 justice with an Alero, and I am appaled that they would even consider "basterdizing" the name with what I consider a cheap immitation of a true Olds. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

While it's very true that there is little power difference between the current 3.5 and the 3.8, the same could be said in 1949. Why bring out the short stroke OHV V-8? - it didn't generate more power than the best in-line flatheads.(Think Packard's 356). The issue is that the 3.8 is pretty fully developed (and amortized tooling makes it cheaper), but the 3.5 has more potential. The plan as I understand it was to make it available to other divisions, but to introduce it in Olds to reinvigorate Olds' former reputation as the division that got GM's new stuff first. Pontiac's recent styling direction to clean up the look(notice how the side views are getting more like Olds), and Cadillac's desire to get new stuff first to regroup, I think worked against Olds.

The Olds dealers certainly got the shaft. In larger cities where Olds was a stand-alone franchise, there already is at least one each of Buick and Pontiac dealers.

As far as cost of engine vs. competition, I don't see other makes having a problem marketing their OHC cars because of this. Bean counters never make for good product.

[86 2dr.ltd]

NTX - Your last statement is exactly how I came to be a Buick person. We always had economy cars. We had to . Things were tight. Then I purchased, cheaply my Grandfathers 82 NYer. As soon as I drove it I understood why he liked these cars. After a situation with a large Buck deer we needed another car. I found the LeSabre and was hooked. That was a $2500.00 car. Then I started looking at Oldsmobiles and found sometimes I liked their fork of the family tree better. Now we drive our 97 LSS that we bought used from Otto Olds in Albany - $9800.00. So we are getting slowly but surely closer to a new car. If things were even better I would have one of those dark green loaded 4.0 Auroras . Otto has always been there as long as I can remember. Now their a Cadilac , Oldsmobile , Pontiac . Huge dealership.

On the engine issue - theres no money in it if you develope it and then quit! Example - the Buick V6 - most people still opted for the 307 for years , imagine if they had quit on the 3.8 in 1979 or 80 ! Find me a 78-85 Riv with the 4.1 which I believe was the standard engine. Easier to find a Diesel.

Secondly once again I'll say put a 'aluminum OHC head option' on that 3800 there will still be some tooling there as well as all the technology they spent fortunes on for pistons, crank , injection and such. People will go nuts for it. Imagine it with the supercharger ! Dont put it in Chevys , nobodys ever going to buy Buicks (I'll leave Olds out for the obvious and I hate to pick on Pontiac)if they can get an Impala or the beloved Monty Carlo with the hottest engine. GM still makes lots of different engines they have just unpersonalized the divisions by making them all available in any corresponding car.

Our local GM truck , Buick , Pontiac dealership now has Chevys in the same yard. There goes Buick and GM truck sales. Probably hurt Pontiac alittle too. I've noticed the Buicks are now in the back , I mean BACK !

Also I'm not a big Nascar follower but I heard from those who are this might be Pontiacs last year there also ? Money talks. You gotta spend money to make it . Chevy gets everything. The sports cars and compatible luxury cars as well. Trucks , Blazers, vans. Race engines - aftermarket parts everything. Chevys should be Blazers / Vans / Vettes & economy cars. Wouldnt that be enough? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Just kiddin Chevys like apple pie or potatoes <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> . I'm just fearen for whats left. I predict Buick/Pontiac have 10 - 15 years left , tops. Buick less if the body designers dont get it together.

442 should be a 4.0 equiped Intrigue! How about a 5sp. Pontiac gets a GTP, Chevy get a Monty SS, even the newest Sevilles are still a remenicient profile of the 2dr.H bodys they decided to do away with. but Olds is going to make a 442 out of their economy car? It really does seem like corporate sabatage doesnt it. The Chalais gets a 442 package while the sweet looking FWD Supreme didnt? The 2dr. Cierra would have been a better choice in the late 80's.

The Alero is a great looking car from the front and side but still - do it right.

[NTX5467]

With respect to the NASCAR deals, when the current Grand Prix body debuted in that race series, it was supposed to have much better aerodynamics than the Monte Carlo and looked like it should have. For some reason, the GP has not had the successes in NASCAR that it should have in more recent years. Everybody's got a "spec" chassis rolling on "spec" tires so just the setup and engine and drivers--plus the NASCAR "aero package" is all that's different. Some are "user issues" and others are NASCAR's doings. Seems like the GM management consolidated all of the NASCAR activities under one person, if I recall correctly. Perhaps the GM "corporate" racer groups should use the "One Team" approach that seems to work for the Chrysler guys?

Also recall that the 4-4-2 package was not tied to the biggest engine option its first year, but came to include the more powerful engines in later years, just as the '70 Buick Skylark GS came with a 350-4bbl V-8 but the GS455 came with the 455 V-8 as standard. We've tended to associate the 4-4-2 and Skylark GS with the larger engines which might have been more common in them, but that wasn't the case initially.

The reason I suggested the "W" Machine deal was to use something historically significant in the Olds performance heritage that would not be tied to a specific model of Olds, but a high performance option package instead. Of course, W-30 and W-31 would not be allowed, but other W-numbers could be. Perhaps the Special Edition Alero could come in regular versions with trim and paint and such but might also have a high performance version with a W-code designation? Dr. Oldsmobile could also give them his magic touch before his powers were completely depleted too, for the media advertising. Several nice tie-in there.

When the designers and engineers get a vehicle proposal together and get it priced out, they can determine how and where they spend their money. In the case of the GM W-cars, Grand Prix was the first one out with the others following a little while later. Therefore, the benchmark pricing was very possibly using a vehicle with the Buick V-6 and it was a setup for the similar Intrigues with the later 3.5L V-6 to be low profit vehicles, comparatively speaking, it would seem.

When you start with a clean sheet of paper as the Chrysler guys did with their LH cars, you can juggle things around at that time to compensate for a more expensive high tech engine. Not all of the LH cars had the Chrysler high performance V-6 as some had the pushrod 3.3L V-6 as standard equipment. Therefore, if their pricing benchmark allowed the more expensive V-6 to start with, the lesser engine just ensured greater profits. Also note that the original version of Chrysler 3.5L V-6 had basically the same horsepower as the Intrigue's "later to market" 3.5L V-6 and used variable intake tuning to get a broader torque curve than the GM engine had. It kind of seemed like GM added their 3.5L V-6 as a "have to" deal and when the Chrysler guys upped the ante with their 2nd Gen 3.5L V-6 and 253 horsepower and 140+mph top speed (with the Performance Handling Package and higher speed rated Michelins on the 300M), GM did not respond in like kind with their 3.5L V-6 as they probably felt the supercharged 3800 would suffice, but that never made it into an Olds Intrigue (although I understand it was in the original business plan).

It would have been nice if the Intrigue had been the last Olds produced, but the Alero had higher sales numbers so it got a longer life span as the Intrigue was not selling very well at the time. But they didn't ask us what our preferences would be so we have to take what we can get. I feel that a 4.0L V-8 Intrigue would have been a car I would certainly have tried to get, even if it had 4 doors.

When the new GM line of V-6s comes out in a few years, the current Chevy and Buick V-6s will probably disappear unless the Buick guys get totally irate. Reports are for the same family to support "high value" (pushrod) V-6s and also "high feature" (overhead camshafts) V-6s for the higher car lines. If they work the same good stuff that they did with the new 2.2L EcoTec 4-cylinder, the new engines will be pretty dang good, performance wise. I also suspect they'll also use variable valve timing and other tweaks that were not available in the past and could not be readily adapted to the 3.1/3.4L Chevy V-6 or the Buick 3800 V-6. Even as good as it is, the tooling for those Chevy and Buick V-6s will wear out at some time or another anyway so if new stuff has to be ordered, it might as well be new and innovative.

As for the special edition Alero, it would be nice if a higher performance version could be configured without giving up any of its nice luxury amenities while upgrading the power and handling several notches. Hopefully an appropriate nomenclature can be agreed upon that will not besmirch the hallowed reputations of prior Oldsmobile performance vehicles too. Something that was worthy of being "Father's Oldsmobile"!

Why is it that Chrysler and Ford can pull of their "heritage" tie-ins to current vehicles and GM just doesn't seem to be able to pull it off? Especially with the cars? Just curious . . . and not meaning to get this discussion any further away from the original subject matter.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Steve Moskowitz]

'86...if you are at Walt Otto's place again thell him Steve Moskowitz said howdy. He's a friend and we served on Oldsmobile's national board together...been to his store and it sure is a big one!

You know the old saying about opinions so here is mine. Those of you worring about the "pristine" heritage of 4-4-2's have obviously not seen some of the later models we came out with...good God! We have more than bastardized the name previously. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but there are not too many folks in the Olds car hobby that go back as far as I have or who have spent their life personally and professionally with Olds. The last 500 Oldsmobiles to be produced should be SPECIAL! Most Olds collectors want something that will be worthy of the ending and that is why some type of performance vehicle would be fitting. That is why the discussion is coming up.....

[Guest]

NTX , I'll second that W__ - option it does make lots of sence and would be correct without any bad or good influence on the reputation of 442.

Oldscarnut I'll second that as well the last Oldsmobiles need to be very special indeed and the Alero is a nice car I'm sure they can go great things with it.

Today its OTTO Group of course. Its the latest rage, "group". All through my boyhood I remember the radio commercials "Otto Olds" probably even some local TV ones in the good old days as well. Soon to be just Otto Pontiac/Cadillac, just doesnt have the flow. This whole thing is really eatin me up, not happy at all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> . Seems like a slow torture also. At least my latest car is the last of the "88's" and I bought it from Otto Olds. Funny how things work out. wasnt a plan just the way it wound up. We went to alot of other places first. I had previously driven a 96 Buick Regal GS and a 96 "88"LS and the LS was my preference but had a carraige top. But after being there in that parking lot that Sunday afternoon looking at all the Oldsmobiles I knew Oldsmobile it was going to be. In fact we picked a nice 96 Eighty Eight LS and then went cruising to look and dream at all the new Olds and Caddys. The Aurora as I've said won out. The green one killed me. Black Onix was nice too. Anyhow after a long walk in that huge lot we wound up back by the Burgandy LS and looked over in another row and saw an "88" with sunroof amounst the used Pontiacs. Then once I realized what I was looking at "the rest was history". So apparently it was ment to be.

Also here locally in Colbeskill, NY was Lewin Oldsmobile and I believe that was an exclusive. One of the owners had a small 442 collection I saw one, one day in the shop and commented and the mechanic said it was the owners and he has others. Also speaking of funny how things work out. About 3 yrs ago I was there at Lewin to see if they could find 75-76 Royal tailight lenses when this car called an LSS caught my wifes eye. We looked it over and said someday - ya right. But golly gee whats in our driveway now.

Good luck Oldscarnut ! and with the Alero !

Is there still a link to those Special versions of the Alero ,Intrigue , Aurora? I forget the year and the letters they were called. Seems most of them were red and had a ground effects and handling package. I want to down load some pictures if their still around. Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[86 2dr.ltd]

Thats anonomously me above.

[Steve Moskowitz]

The cars were called OSV's as in Oldsmobile Specialty Vehcicles or Special (I forgot). They were the brainchild of Dick Balsley and I think they may be on the Oldsmobile webiste still but have not checked recently.

Walt Otto actually used to work for Olds as a District Sales Manager and I was on the service side in Chicago . I know Walt for a lot of reasons not excluding that I was born and raised in the Berkshires and still have a favorite aunt in Albany, Anyway, I digress...

To all you anonymous user's out there...why don't you at least number yourself as anonymous #1, 2 etc.! Just kidding, this has been a discussion on the AACA site and I understand why some people feel the need but it sure would be better if we all knew each other.

There has been some pretty interesting and thoughtful discussion on this thread and that is great for the club. It is closing time here at my store and I am staring out at my 1908 Model X Oldsmobile and thinking about better times. I did just purchase a 1902 and 1903 Curved Dash which will be arriving in about a week. Still can't stop myself....I will always be an Olds guy despite the fact that GM has taken the living from me and my great staff.

I drove 4-4-2's as company cars, owned them, have helped a lot of people buy them and they are great cars for the most part. We did make a few that did not do justice to the original heritage. However, enough people have contacted me about the ability to purchase one of the last cars that, Oldsmobile as we now know it, will produce. They all want something DIFFERENT,UNIQUE that strongly makes a statement about Oldsmobile. There are only a few dedicated employees left at the marketing division but hopefully we can find a way to make the last Alero's worthy of the great name and heritage.

[Steve Moskowitz]

As promised: thru the end of August Oldsmobile is -48.0% from last year in sales. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

-48% ouch ! Well they could hardly expect people to buy a car they decided wasnt good enough to keep .