hddennis Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 After my previous disaster from adjusting my Maxwell clutch I've got it all back together and have adjusted the bolts tighter in the hopes of getting a better feeling pedal. Since this was assembled originally by a previous owner over a half century ago I have no way of knowing what is and isn't correct nor do I understand how it works. My main concern is the clutch pedal seems to be connected solidly to the throw out bearing and has no free play at all and I have never seen a car with no free play but this is my first cone clutch set up.Anyone know if this is normal? Have any photos of how the throw out bearing and fork are attached to the bellhousing/transmission case?Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Layden B Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 These are from the Maxwell 1918 Instruction Book, no detail on clutch pedal to throwout connection, oil referred to is motor oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share Posted November 17, 2014 Thanks Layden, but the area I need to see is hidden in that picture. From what I can figure from the parts book it looks like the pedal, shaft and bearing are all linked with no free play. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazycars Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I just finished this work on my Maxwell after a motor swap. Your clutch adjustment is made by aligning the two grooved halves , one on the shaft of the clutch pedal, the other attached to the rod which runs thru the bell housing and connects to the throw out bearing fork on the inside, and rebolting them together after the adjustment. Loosen the bolt, realign the pieces to allow for free play, tighten up. These two grooved sections allow for the pedal free movement. Now, if someone can tell me why my clutch now slips like crazy after the motor swap, I will be really grateful. I tried adjusting the pressure plate finger springs but no luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 I just finished this work on my Maxwell after a motor swap. Your clutch adjustment is made by aligning the two grooved halves , one on the shaft of the clutch pedal, the other attached to the rod which runs thru the bell housing and connects to the throw out bearing fork on the inside, and rebolting them together after the adjustment. Loosen the bolt, realign the pieces to allow for free play, tighten up. These two grooved sections allow for the pedal free movement. Now, if someone can tell me why my clutch now slips like crazy after the motor swap, I will be really grateful. I tried adjusting the pressure plate finger springs but no luck.Gary, Thanks for responding. Could you run through this again using the factory part numbers from this page so I can follow this and understand what I need to do? The only bolt I remember is to tighten the pedal to the shaft?Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Gary, I just re-read your response and you mention pressure plate fingers? If you have a pressure plate, your clutch is NOT a cone clutch like mine???Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazycars Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Hi Howard, The adjustment for free-play is made by re-aligning the ridges on plate B5774 with those ridges on the pedal shaft. these run fore and aft and provide about an inch of adjustment. There are two bolts which, when loosened, allow for the movement of these surfaces. I guess "clutch fingers" was the wrong term. There ARE three clutch springs which can be tightened putting more pressure on the "clutch plate". My set up is definitely the oil bath, leather cone type.Funny story: I installed that motor you lined up for me ,started her up, and she ran pretty good. I then checked the oil which was FULL OF WATER! I took off the pan , drained the radiator, and removed the head to inspect. I discovered that there was NO HEAD GASKET on the motor!!! I assumed that everything was in place even tho I had found the head bolts somewhat loose and retorqued them. Can you imagine? It ran, and not bad either with no head gasket! Needless to say, I cleaned everything out and quickly corrected the problem with the installation of a head gasket. That qualifies as one "for the books"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Hi Howard, The adjustment for free-play is made by re-aligning the ridges on plate B5774 with those ridges on the pedal shaft. these run fore and aft and provide about an inch of adjustment. There are two bolts which, when loosened, allow for the movement of these surfaces. I guess "clutch fingers" was the wrong term. There ARE three clutch springs which can be tightened putting more pressure on the "clutch plate". My set up is definitely the oil bath, leather cone type.Funny story: I installed that motor you lined up for me ,started her up, and she ran pretty good. I then checked the oil which was FULL OF WATER! I took off the pan , drained the radiator, and removed the head to inspect. I discovered that there was NO HEAD GASKET on the motor!!! I assumed that everything was in place even tho I had found the head bolts somewhat loose and retorqued them. Can you imagine? It ran, and not bad either with no head gasket! Needless to say, I cleaned everything out and quickly corrected the problem with the installation of a head gasket. That qualifies as one "for the books"!Thanks Gary, at least we know we both have the same clutch. I couldn't wrap my head around your first reply and your second sounded good till I went out to my car and saw what B5774 actually did. I had previously adjusted this before when I put my transmission back in after my clutch was destroyed from me backing off the 3 clutch springs. The reason I adjusted it before was because I was making the final adjustments on my restoration of this chassis before test driving it. I had just finished adjustment of the brakes and noticed the clutch and brake pedal were out of alignment. After studying it I discovered the bolts you mentioned and found they allow you to adjust the clutch pedal in relation to the floorboard. They really don't have anything to do with the free play. Just to make sure I wasn't wrong I just loosened the bolts hoping you were right and my free play would magically appear, nope, pedal now moves freely in that slot but B5774 is solidly connected to the clutch fork with no free play even after loosening the bolt on B5774 hoping it would rotate on the shaft. It appears to me B5774 is keyed to the clutch pedal shaft with a woodruff key and the bolt just locks it all together.I'm at the point now where I believe I have two possible problems: # 1 scenario is the previous restorer assembled the clutch fork in between the bearing and it's race and that has eaten up all my free play.# 2 scenario is that the first restorer had the clutch relined with a material too thick and that has pushed the cone farther out of the flywheel and that has eaten up all my free play.I just ordered a digital inspection camera to see inside the cramped bell housing so I can see where the fork is hitting.Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazycars Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 That's a tough one. Although it's a lot of work, the trans can be backed off to allow access to the fork, or, if memory serves me correctly, there is an access panel which allows you to look inside the bell housing. Funny, I put this whole thing together a couple of years ago and it worked perfectly. After this latest motor swap, my clutch is a mess. As I recall, there are a couple of spacer rings which can be assembled in the wrong order on the trans shaft next to the bearing. Let me know what you come up with. Maybe it will give me some insight! One thing's for sure, this Maxwell is a tough car to get along with!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted November 22, 2014 Author Share Posted November 22, 2014 That's a tough one. Although it's a lot of work, the trans can be backed off to allow access to the fork, or, if memory serves me correctly, there is an access panel which allows you to look inside the bell housing. Funny, I put this whole thing together a couple of years ago and it worked perfectly. After this latest motor swap, my clutch is a mess. As I recall, there are a couple of spacer rings which can be assembled in the wrong order on the trans shaft next to the bearing. Let me know what you come up with. Maybe it will give me some insight! One thing's for sure, this Maxwell is a tough car to get along with!! Gary, you sure got that tough car part right! I'm 66 and have worked on antique cars since I was 12 but this car has done things to me I have never even heard of. Here's one for the books. When I first went to start this thing I bought non-detergent Shell 30w. The next morning the garage floor was covered with small puddles from every gasket and bolt on this newly rebuilt engine. Turns out I purchased mislabeled synthetic oil and it is known to leak where other oil won't. Add to that the fact that over these many years I have had so much trouble removing Permatex # 2 from parts others had assembled I vowed to never use it myself. Jump ahead to a Maxwell with a wet clutch and a gasketed bell housing and guess what I used on this assembly? SO now I may have to chisel the transmission off, make a new gasket and drop the transmission so I can wire wheel off the Permatex on both surfaces! This used to be a fun hobby but my fun meter's pegged with this car!Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazycars Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Hey, at age 67, I have to agree with you! I used that blue silicone gasket maker for the bell housing and it worked pretty well. Before this motor swap, I used the Permatex and it leaked and make a constant mess. I must have owned a hundred cars in my time and have to say that this one is a royal pain in the butt! It's beeb a hard luck car from day one.Funny thing is that I own a 24 Chrysler touring car and , despite being a close cousin to Maxwell, it is a much much better vehicle all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazycars Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Howard, After going thru my Maxwell, I have come to the conclusion that we both have the same, no free-play, issue. My clutch engages partially but slips no matter what adjustments I make on the springs. I recall a number of large spacer washers and one ball bearing washer in the assembly on the trans shaft and it's possible that I put them together in the wrong order or spaced incorrectly in relation to the front and rear of the fork. I guess I'll have to bite the bullet on this one and take everything apart again! I'll let you know how I make out. Right now, I'm getting pretty tired of redoing things on this car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 Howard, After going thru my Maxwell, I have come to the conclusion that we both have the same, no free-play, issue. My clutch engages partially but slips no matter what adjustments I make on the springs. I recall a number of large spacer washers and one ball bearing washer in the assembly on the trans shaft and it's possible that I put them together in the wrong order or spaced incorrectly in relation to the front and rear of the fork. I guess I'll have to bite the bullet on this one and take everything apart again! I'll let you know how I make out. Right now, I'm getting pretty tired of redoing things on this car.Gary, Boy do I feel your pain on this one! I just now finished taking my car apart for the second time and finding absolutely nothing wrong. I even took both shafts out trying to find previous damage or alterations and found it was in perfect condition and assembled exactly as Maxwell intended. From this last teardown I can only conclude that Maxwell engineers designed this system to have almost no freeplay. One thing I might add is unlike conventional clutches where the clutch fork pushes the throw out bearing to release the clutch this Maxwell fork PULLS the bearing and disc and you need to keep that in mind when assembling it.Good Luck,Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 Howard, After going thru my Maxwell, I have come to the conclusion that we both have the same, no free-play, issue. My clutch engages partially but slips no matter what adjustments I make on the springs. I recall a number of large spacer washers and one ball bearing washer in the assembly on the trans shaft and it's possible that I put them together in the wrong order or spaced incorrectly in relation to the front and rear of the fork. I guess I'll have to bite the bullet on this one and take everything apart again! I'll let you know how I make out. Right now, I'm getting pretty tired of redoing things on this car.Gary, I just re-read your post and you mention " A number of spacer washers". I'm hoping your memory is wrong. Here is the correct order from the back side of the disc: B5668 fork, B5624 race, B5669 bearing, B5625 race, and lastly B5244 lock ring.Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgb123 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I recently purchased an early automobile book from 1909. I do not know if this will help, but the author talks about 2 main issues with cone clutch efficiency. one item is sufficient friction surface an the other item is proper angularity of the cone. He states that the generally adopted angularity is between 12 to 15 degrees, as close to 12 degrees as possible. This would allow a friction surface of about 1/8 the flywheel diameter in breadth. The increasing or decreasing of the cone angle will affect the friction affect. At least, this is a guideline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulrace Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Howard; I hope you got your clutch problem sorted. If not I can probably get picture for you as mine is apart to put ne ring gear on flywheel. Clutch had free play and worked fine. I have another cone clutch disc with more lining but I think I am putting it back just like it was. Let me know.thanksbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 Thanks for the offer Bob. I found nothing wrong and reassembled it. Still no free play but I'll just have to live with it. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerolyuk Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I have a similar problem on mine and if anyone has photos or clear diagrams of how the set up should be in terms of the clutch arm and spacers that would be much appreciated. There was a circlip at the end which keeps falling off and results in the clutch being fully in or fully out with no "play" in between. I also need to know what size of clutch stud adjusting bolts to use and type/ size/ shape(cross-section) of the springs, and also where to get them, as I think I have the wrong ones in --- the previous owner I think has fiddled around and put wrong springs and bolts which resulted in the bolt tails and nuts to back off and to come up against the housing causing some damage. damage repaired but i really need (or at least my mechanic really needs) to know the exact set up of the clutch Any advice would be nice and much appreciated I'm based in the UK Cheers Peter B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 Peter, I've been rooting around in the garage to try and find anything that might help you out since you posted. First look at these parts book pages and see if you can give me an idea what keeps falling off? "There was a circlip at the end which keeps falling off" . Howard Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 Peter, here's what I found in my garage. Some where rusty and dipped in rust remover and the spider was damaged when I backed my nuts off too far. I'm no machinist so these measurements are just a rough guide. The studs are 5/16 x 24 TPI. They are swedged into the spider, notice in one photo you an see how they were damaged when adjusted too far out. The studs measure 2.551 long and are threaded 1.530 down. The nuts are 3/4 hex head and the head is .260 tall. Total height is 1.136. Below the head is .540 outside diameter. Top half of nut is not threaded to a depth of .580 and it is bored to .406. The rest of the nut I.D. is threaded 5/16 x 24 TPI. Next is a cup washer O.D. 1.205 I.D. .589 .222 tall I only have one spring and it is broken but I'm pretty sure none is missing and these should be the correct dimensions.2.388 tall1.012 O.D..626 I. D. Hope this helps,Howard Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Spent an hour rooting through the garage, boxes and cans rounding up parts, photographed them and measured each one, straightened out bent bolt, logged it all into computer and posted online and original poster can't be bothered to even acknowledge if it helps or not after viewing all my effort. No problem, just don't expect any other effort from me. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerolyuk Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Thanks very much Howard I'll get back to you once I've studied the attachments you sent Best wishes Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerolyuk Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Thanks very much Howard I'll get back to you once I've studied the attachments you sent Best wishes Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerolyuk Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 100_1920.JPG100_1923.JPG100_1929.JPGPeter, here's what I found in my garage. Some where rusty and dipped in rust remover and the spider was damaged when I backed my nuts off too far. I'm no machinist so these measurements are just a rough guide. The studs are 5/16 x 24 TPI. They are swedged into the spider, notice in one photo you an see how they were damaged when adjusted too far out. The studs measure 2.551 long and are threaded 1.530 down. The nuts are 3/4 hex head and the head is .260 tall. Total height is 1.136. Below the head is .540 outside diameter. Top half of nut is not threaded to a depth of .580 and it is bored to .406. The rest of the nut I.D. is threaded 5/16 x 24 TPI. Next is a cup washer O.D. 1.205 I.D. .589 .222 tall I only have one spring and it is broken but I'm pretty sure none is missing and these should be the correct dimensions.2.388 tall1.012 O.D..626 I. D. Hope this helps,Howard DennisHi Howard Thank you for these photos and the previous reply with diagrams. I also saw another post from you last night when I got home which I tried to put a full reply from my phone, but had trouble on the small screen, and which you suggested that I hadn't replied and acknowledged - sorry about that but I couldn't reply at all whilst I was away from home doing my volunteering work and didn't have access to the internet for 24 hours, which I perhaps should have said in my original post so I'm really sorry that you took so much trouble and it perhaps appeared that I was ungrateful. On the contrary - I am more than grateful. I'm away again most of Sunday again volunteering for the charity i support and the car is with a mechanic at the moment over 50 miles away so I will ask the mechanic tomorrow (Monday) to take a look at the pics and diagrams then come back to you. I'm in the UK so there is the time difference to take into account also. Once again sincere apologies and many thanks Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted January 24, 2016 Author Share Posted January 24, 2016 Peter, I apologize. After going to all that work I checked back and saw you had visited and I thought you couldn't be bothered to leave a comment and I just snapped. I was having a bad day and wasn't myself. Hope some little bit of this information helps, sorry I can't offer more. These Maxwell's can be trying projects. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerolyuk Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 No problem Howard - I know the feeling well - I'll speak to my mechanic in the morning and come back to you hereBest wishes and stay blessed Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerolyuk Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Howard The information you sent is brilliant - having conferred with the mechanic he confirms that the set up was totally wrong by previous owner in regard to the clutch arm and spacers. He has taken it to bits and re-assembled correctly. We have also discovered that the springs and stud bolts were totally the wrong size (3/8" too short) - so your measurements are much appreciated and we are now sourcing the correct sizes in the UK. The mechanic I am using is really good and photographing absolutely everything as we go along and once the car is completed I will put as much as I can up on the Maxwell forum page in order to assist others in the future. May I just ask a couple more questions?: 1) when you rebuilt yours, did you replece the bolts and nuts with ones that are locked with a split pin or have you left it without split pins or used an alternative method of locking such as loctite? 2) Now yours is set up ok - what grade of oil sae are you using in the clutch? and is it mineral or synthetic or a combination - difficult to know what to use as in my owners handbook it just says light motor oil. Once again thank you so very much for your help Best wishes Peter Page 41.jpgPage 42.jpgPage 43.jpgPage 44.jpgPeter, I've been rooting around in the garage to try and find anything that might help you out since you posted. First look at these parts book pages and see if you can give me an idea what keeps falling off? "There was a circlip at the end which keeps falling off" .Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) Peter, so glad that even after my tantrum I was of some help. Now the bad news. When I started this over a year ago I was getting the chassis to move on it's own for the first time in about 65 years. It moved but I wasn't happy with the clutch. After breaking it and repairing it again I got it to function but am still not happy with the adjustment. It has no freeplay and grabs at the very top of the pedal travel. I was disgusted and decided to leave well enough alone and finish the rest of the body and solve other problems not yet addressed. Now that it is almost finished I need to get back to the clutch and see if I can't get a better adjustment. I filled my clutch with 30W non-detergent oil and it seemed to work just fine. Since my car didn't have any provision for cotter pins on the clutch bolts I assembled them without any locking method as Maxwell didn't use any originally and with the spring pressure on each nut I doubt it will be a problem. Funny You should mention synthetic oil! I've been working on antique cars for over 50 years and have never used it. When I went to the parts store to get supplies to get the Maxwell running for the first time I bought 5 qts of 30W non-detergent and put it in my completely rebuilt engine. Long story short the next morning a good percentage was on the garage floor as if I had forgotten every single gasket in the engine. I later found out the oil was mislabeled synthetic oil. The internet is full of stories about how badly it makes an older engine leak. You'll also find people who say this is nonsense. All I can tell you is this is the only motor out of hundreds I've rebuilt that has leaked like a sieve! And after draining that crap and putting in the old school 30W non-detergent I have stopped most all of the leaking. Your mileage may vary. Howard Dennis Edited January 25, 2016 by hddennis (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icerolyuk Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Howard Thank you so very much for the information - you are an absolute star Seems like we will be sharing the same problem for a little while - I'll let you know how we get on and eventually see if there is a fix to this problem. Thanks for the oil advice - much appreciated Hopefully we will get our respective maxwells running good soon Cheers for now Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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