2000 BUICK NATIONALS: Disappointing

[Guest]

I was expecting better. Albeit, I was there the first day. <P>I travelled from Delaware...5 hours of anticipation. What a let down. Did GM (BUICK) ever show up? The quality of cars was embarassing. Don't get me wrong, I was blown away by one or two pre 1945 models. <P>I was the youngest Buick Lover by a good 30 years! Why doesn't BCA and Buick cater to a younger crowd??<P>I have a 73 Riv and a 51 Special. <P>Please let me know if you have a BCA club for the sub retirement types! Maybe I should join the GS Club?<P>pwilkens@herc.com

[adoldfield]

Dear pwilkens: Sorry you couldn't stay longer for the BCA Nationals! The Blackhawk rolled out of its trailer Wednesday morning, and was the hit of the show. It is an awesome machine. The Buick guys and AAT guys who built in even gave rides! The Blackhawk also participated in the Buick drag race Friday night.<BR>My wife and I have often felt we were the youngest ones in the BCA, but everyone we've met over the years has been terrific, and now we have some very good friends who are a few years older than us, but from whom we have learned a lot about the cars!<BR>I really hope you stick with the BCA a little longer. The club is great, and so is nearly everyone we've met. Plus, we need some younger folks to guide BCA into the future. <BR>In the past few years, things are changing. The Grand Nationals, like mine, which were once dismissed by many as simply a used car, are now eligible for Senior awards. So some of the newer cars and performance cars of the 70s and 80s will become more visible.<BR>Sorry to be so long winded. The Richmond National was a good show, we had a ball.<BR>By the way, we're in the GSCA too and we enjoy both clubs, but in different ways.<BR>Thanks<BR>Alan Oldfield<BR>#15140

[Guest scott mich bca # 6619]

Sorry you were dissapointed. We drove 900 miles each was from Chicago. Yes it was a smaller turnout then normal, but you have to make the best of it.<BR> Did you know that the host chapter only has 22 members? I also heard the whole show<BR>was run by about 12 of them. Not bad considering. They were delt a bad hand with the parking situation, and the hotel being sold 1 week before the show.<BR> I think they did a wonderful job despite the circumstances. Better luck in New York.<P>Scott<P>------------------<BR>

[Guest]

If you take the whole week of the National it was pretty good. Two things really turned me off though. First I am relatively young also ,late 20's I am paying a mortgage and trying to save money for my childrens education at this time so I do not have thousands of dollars to restore my car like it should be, it would do well in the archive class though. Was gonna take it next year to New York, but I heard 3 guys say the BCA shouldn't have archive class cause them cars are just dirty pieces of junk. That really took me back that people feel that way if you don't have a restored car dont bother showing it. Also at the general membership meeting people were complaining of the dues increase. How can someone spend 50 to 60 thousand dollars on a car and complain about a 5 dollar dues increase. I dont get it or am I missing something here. Someday I will have a restored car and I just hope I dont forget were I came from.

[Guest]

i also felt that the turn out was low. i thought the show was poorly run, but there is no way that 12 people could get a national show together. so they did ok with what they had. also no one has stepped forward for the 2002 meet, so this club tried hard but just was overwhelmed with the scope of a nationals. my chapter (minuteman chapter) hosted the nationals in 1998 so i know how hard they worked and we have quite a few members.<P>anyway, i think that the younger members of this club have to assert control over the direction of the club. i am 27 and i have been showing my 1973 riviera (the bamboo cream one at the show) since i was 18. i was one of the youngest, if not the youngest, member of the minuteman club when i joined. i have been working hard on my car and have been winning awards for my efforts since the first few shows that i have attended. <P>WE NEED MORE MUSCLE CARS! GSs, GNs, T-Types and such. guys in their 20's and 30's for the most part, don't get charged up over cars from the 1920's-50's. some do, most do not. we like performance and cars that we can relate to. i was appauled to see that my father's 1971 GS stage 1 was the only stage 1 ANYTHING at the show. the GS club has hundreds of GS's but there were only a hand full at the show (especially in the 1970-72 years). <P>i have heard many people say that late 60's and 70's cars are not "worthy" of the nationals. screw them! the archival class is great for people to show off what they have. if those people in this club that are stuck in one era, then people such as myself and others are going to feel significantly less welcome in this club.

[Don Caithness]

I agree with Scott that considering everything, the host club did a bang up job and should be congratulated for the interesting and enjoyable week they set up. Without some of the smaller chapters willing to take the challenge there wouldn't be a National meet every year( 2002 is an example). A National meet is MORE than the Saturday car show! If that's the only reason for attending then you will be disappointed. Diversity is what makes the old car hobby what it is! BCA, AACA it doesn't matter. The hobby, and yes it is a hobby, is intended to be fun. Let's enjoying the cars and events!!

[Guest]

To PWILKEN and others: no show is perfect! I did like this show because the weather was cool for a change and because of the smaller size I did get to look at more cars closely and meet more people and that is what it all about: People!! I love all Buicks but I like people more!<BR>The only time all the cars will be out is Saturday because many people drive their cars when sightseeing around the city and coutryside; some stay at hotels other than host hotel and many people drive in the day of the show; and of course there are those who bring their cars in closed trailers and are only out for the show. Some cars come 'as is' whether archival or drivers or in the middle of restoration; others are professionally restored (even over restored) still others are restored by people like me who still have a 'day job' and a hobby (obcession??). Some are shown and not judged while others are judged and the award is not as high as expected or maybe surprised that others think your car is better than you think it is. Some think only a $80,000 restoration on a car brought in a trailer can get a senior award but some cars driven long distances have achieved that status. Again it is the people who make a show!!! My advice: enjoy the show...cars and people and if you thinks it could be better then you should put on the next show which would be perfect!!<BR>Willie

[Dave@Moon]

I just missed going the the Nationals this year (family illness), but after going to Columbus last year and a few other clubs' Nationals I've noticed a few things. I've seen shows that were well run, shows where people dropped the ball, and shows where areas were visible where both happened. Regardless which is the case, you can't reasonably criticize people who have been working on your and your club's behalf for no more gain than to say they picked the shirt pattern or menu. I owe those people a great debt for promoting my club in Richmond, and I didn't even attend. We all do.<P>One thing I've noticed that might've held attendance down is an unfair prejudice on some people's parts against attending shows in areas south of themselves during July and August. Apparantly 98 degrees and humid is OK in OH (remember Columbus), but not in VA or (God forbid) TX. I think it's ridiculous, but a lot of people seem to allow fear of the heat interfere with their enjoyment of events such as this (& life in general). <P>As regards to the age of the participants, every National of every club I've ever attended looked like a geriatrics ward to me as well (I'm currently 42). The reasons for this are very simple to understand, mine are named Peter and Julia (as well as Larissa, their dark overlord)! People who are of an age where making a living and keeping kids fed are still an issue just don't have time and moolah to trek 2000 miles in an old car and spend 4-5 days at a hotel. This will never change. Look for the future of any club in it's local events. <P>I'll be in Buffalo in 2001 for sure. Let's hope that the 2002 show outdoes them all!

[Bill Stoneberg]

Just as point of reference Dave,<BR>It was 104 with 90 percent humidity down here in Texas today. Too hot to do much of anything except work in the garage on my new car. <BR>I wish people would accept a meet int Texas or Louisiana again. The one in Plano was a good meet.

[Guest]

As far as Texas and coventions go in 1999 the Oldsmobile Club of America was located in Irvin Tx. between Ft Worth and Dallas. Also 1998 Studebaker convention was held in Austin Tx. I attended both, 4 days at OCA, 1 afternoon at studebaker convention and every one seemed to enjoy the cars and people in attendence. Never had a desire for a Studebaker, still don't be it was still fun to view and mingle with other car nuts like myself.

[Guest]

Dear Pwilkins:<BR> I do not know what you mean about the quality of the cars.The upper lot had lots of beautiful 30,s 40,s and 50,s cars and the rear lot in the back had quite a few GS and GN,s.I drove my 69GS from Pgh. and was able to get my 1st senor award,also i did not spend thousands to have it profesonaly restored as my wife and I did it ourselves.<P>------------------<BR>Phil Dayen BCA# 32981<BR>1969 GS350<BR>1989 Regal GS<P><BR>

[Centurion]

I attended my first Buick National Meet at age 24 (75th Anniversary Meet in Flint, 1978)and have loved each one that I have had the good fortune to attend. Even as a young person in the BCA, I was able to find others my age who shared my passion for old Buicks. Some of the people I met at BCA Nationals have now been good friends for 20-plus years. As is the case with any organization, the degree to which you build relationships and gain satisfaction is directly proportional to the effort and initiative you invest. I guarantee that there are other BCA members out there who share your interest.<P>Dave@Moon is entirely correct about the impact of other life priorities on our ability to participate in the Nationals. Marriage, children, career, resources and distance have made it impossible for me to attend a National since 1991, but the whole family understands that attending in 2003 is an absolute must.<P>We'll be driving our '59 Buick from the Seattle area, and, although it is far from perfect and has no prospect of winning any awards, it will be rewarding simply to participate and enjoy the comraderie of other Buick hobbyists. And for those of you with original, unrestored cars -- please do not be discouraged by the negative comments of a few people who believe that restored cars are the only cars nice enough for a National. I have seen too many misguided restorations, and would always opt for an original car if given the choice. There will always be people whose point-of-view may offend us, but, thankfully, the Buick Club leadership has recognized the value of original cars and created the Archival Class. Please know that there are others out there who appreciate your original cars!<P>--Brian Laurance, BCA #5168<BR>'59 Electra, '71 Centurion, '89 LeSabre

[Guest]

Thanks for all the comments. I have seen a picture of the 455 custom Buick Black Hawk. It is awesome. Will Buick build it for the masses. Hardly. That is one of my problems with Buicks. They wonder why the average buyer is 67!!! They build cars for 67 year olds!!! The premium ($) Buick could charge on specialty cars for the minority consumer (under 67...way under 67)would pay for the development investment.<P>I guess if there would have been a more detailed schedule for the Nationals, I would have adjusted my travel plans to see the cars Buick brought. Also, If I had known the "real" car show was on Saturday, I would have been there.<P>As for participating in the BCA, I would love to but at my age, my career development, and the restoration of my 51 come first. I have had to learn alot about my 73 Riv and my 51 Special on my own. I am trying to move from DE to MN in the near future. I will likely join the Gopher Club and become more involved.<P>Thanks again,<BR>pwilkens@herc.com

[AK Buickman]

Don't sweat it, if you are younger!! I attended my first BCA National meet in 1971 when I was 17 years old. Although I participated in BCA National & local events with the newest Buick in our local chapter, my 1955 Roadmaster, the other older members always seemed to act young (they still do), and best of all, we had a common interest-BUICKS!!!! I still have the same '55 Roadmaster & plan to drive it to Buick's 100th birthday celebration in 2003. See you there!!<BR>Gary Klecka, BCA #1955

[Guest]

I think all those who attended the Richmond meet owe Phil Strassner and his "lean" committee a real round of thanks. The meet was really enjoyable, the activities like the paddlewhheler cruise were excellent and I thought the entire affair was well-run and everyone was eager to help with any difficulties. I was one who got caught in the trailer parking fracas on Weds. but the committee members got right on the phones and arranged alternative parking so it was no big deal. I found that those attending who had similar cars were very helpful in suggesting parts sources and answering any questions I came up with. The weather was outstanding and I was glad we made the trip from Mich. to attend.<P>------------------<BR>

[Guest]

I attended the Nationals for the first time and drove my unrestored 1928 Buick 150 miles each way to the meet. We arrived on Friday and stayed through Sunday. It was great seeing and meeting so many people with shared interests. My 28 was the only unrestored car in its class and is by no means perfect, but it is 99% original. I was amazed at the friendliness of the other participants considering the "fresh off the showroom floor" condition of their cars. All were great and came over to chat. I was also "bolled over" by everyone who came by on Friday night that came by and kept us there talking and showing our car until it got too dark to see. <P>Bottom line, I had a great time in my unrestored, 72 year old Buick, and am looking forward to driving to New York next year. BTW, I had no problems with the 28, we chugged along at about 35 to 40, and got a lot of friendly waves and honks. Now, gas milage is another story, how about 10 mpg.

[Guest]

All I can say is be thankful you got to go. Ever since the Buick bug bit me almost 3 years ago, I have been dying to go to the GS Nats, but couldn't (all together now...awwwww). Would you rather go to a Chevy or Mustang show? I think we know the answer to that one. Count your blessings. <P>------------------<BR><BR> 70 Skylark W.I.P.<BR> 69 Skylark W.I.P.

[Guest]

I have a different take on the BCA Nationals. I, like most have attended many national gatherings. Be it work, church, socially or a hobby. I always try to do other things than the actually event. This time I visited Colonial Williamsburg, Jamestown and York Town. I took a drive up the Colonial parkway in my Convertible. I toured the battle fields in Richmond and had time to visit friends in DC.<P>I had a great time. The BCA Nationals was a large part of that.<P>I look forward to next years BCA Nationals.<P>The BOBMAN<BR>

[Dave@Moon]

<I> THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CHEVY AND A MUSTANG SHOW??? </I>

[Guest]

O.K. , you got me. I can't tell. I think the badges are different.<P>------------------<BR><BR> 70 Skylark W.I.P.<BR> 69 Skylark W.I.P.

[Dave@Moon]

Pat, Chevy's order from the front of the Summit catalog, Mustangs order from the back. Mopars have to find their stuff scribbled in the margins.

[Guest]

i am sorry you missed the rest of the show.<BR>i to was unsure of the event schedule, so i called the guys for the host club, and they were more than helpful.<P>of course, i could throw a stone from my house to the hyatt/sheraton in richmond, so i went by every day!<P>i too am young (23) and definately felt out of place with most of the participants _VISUALLY_, but they we all very approachable and entertaining. i dont think the _MENTAL_ age gap is quite as large as the physical one.<P>i do have one problem though. i love buicks, studebakers, 50's chryslers... i have a list a mile long of cars i will own before i die. But, almost everyone of these cars has problems from the factory: too little power, just an AM radio, expensive lever shocks, unconnected subframes... this list is also long <P>i firmly believe that the engineers of all mass-produced automobiles make choices about material selection, design, shape, color, etc. based almost wholey upon financial considerations. not to say that all cars alike. if your target market expects a certain level of fitand finish, you build to that and NO MORE.<P>I, as the end owner of the vehicle, refuse to accept that logic. This car is MINE. the factory got there money a long, long time ago, and i only owe them thanks for building something i enjoy, i dont owe them a restoration to the way they built it. i owe it to myself to make the car the way _I_ want.<P>now, some of you might think i am headed down a path of intollerance here, saying that i hate restorers. quite the opposite is true. one of the cars on my list is a 49 roadmaster sedanet 2dr. that car would be basically factory stock, as that is the way _I_ want it to look. i can extend this philosophy to other people's cars in a way that some BCA members have trouble doing to my cars.<P>This is the only gripe i have with bca so far, and it has little to do with the national meet, other than this is where i met people who felt this way.<P>apparently there was a modified '50 on the cover of the bugle recently, and the first issue of the bugle that i ever read (they we giving them out when you register at the show) has a pair of letters to the editor, and a nice response from the editor. i new that the bca was mostly restorers, but i never, ever thought i would see the club publish a letter where one man calls another man's car a 'junk heap' in its national monthly.<P>well, that made up my mind. the man who sent that letter, a Mr. Vair bca#21647 had better look the hell out. cause with an attitude like that, your beloved buicks and this club are going to dry up and blow away. New members, and supporting the new interests of old members is a REQUIREMENT for continuation of this hobby.<P>i am not saying that you have to like my car, or that you have to modify yours. HELL! you already make it so modified cars cant win any awards at your meets, and i am fine with that, why cant you guys live with a single modified car in your rag once every few MONTHS?<P>the gentleman and some of the folks i talked to at the show need to pick up my philosophy on old cars, which is a funny thing to say considering my age. BUT, the owner owes it only to HIMSELF to make the car exactly what he wants.<P>in 2003, i will see you in michigan, and i will be driving a suede black, 1950 special sedanet with the floorpan, electrics, powertrain, steering, frame and suspension from a 1973 riviera, cause that is what i want.<P>it has mercury tail-lights and rear bumper, cause they are what i want.<P>it will have widewights and a modern cd player, cause that is what i want.<P>it has a one-piece windshield and modified vent windows, cause that is what i want.<P>This is MY car, it should do what i want. This is MY club. it should share what i want with what everyone else wants, not tell me to get lost cause i dont have a desire to do my car like a few of its members want.<P>I am here to stay. so are modified buicks. get used to it, you are going to see alot of me...<P>man<BR>anoah@pfeiffer.edu<BR>www2.pfeiffer.edu/~anoah/buick/

[Guest]

KINTO,<P>For 23 you are a wise man. I completely agree with you. There will always be room for the restored "Show Cars" in this club. We need to be more open to the though of what a car is. I have a '66 Cat Conv that I drive everyday to work. I get grief from people who think that is stupid. I bought the car to enjoy on sunny days in the summer. I HAVE FUN WITH MY CAR. That is what a car club should be. To refer to anyone else's car as a piece of junk or because it is modified it is inferior is completely intolerant of anyone else's outlook. I guarantee that person has fun with their vehicle or they would not keep it or show it to the public. Wake up BCA, KINTO is the next generation of automotive enthusiast.<P>The BOBMAN<BR>

[Guest COMPACTBC]

Kitno, I admire your philosophy regarding car restoration/modification, and I agree with what you said in your comments. The BCA has come a long way since I joined in 1982. It now has a Perfomance Division, a Driving Enthusiasts Division and I'll bet that in the near future it might even have a Modified Division and class for same at the National Show. It is people like you, with your determination, that could be the catalyst to get such a Division started. I was on the BCA Board of Directors for 12 years and there are a LOT OF MEMBERS who would support such an effort. Believe me people like Mr Vair, are in a minority regarding their opinions about modified cars. There is a member in my chapter who was a BCA president and has restored many cars himself that were Senior Cars in our 400 point system, one of which made it to the Concourse de Elegance at the Pebble Beach car show. He now has a very fine 1934 Buick nailhead V8 street rod, with a 4 on the floor T-10 tranny. You are correct about the mental age of a lot of our members, we are recycled teenagers in recycled cars, and WE ARE HAVING A LOT OF FUN. BTW I will be 69 my next birthday and I will be looking forward to seeing your modified Buick when you bring it to the National Meet in 2003. Did you know that the chapter who puts on a National Meet can have a Modified Car Class if they want to, they just can't compete in the 400 point system for obvious reasons.<BR>Bruce Andren, BCA 12658 <P>------------------<BR>

[The Old Guy]

I agree with Bruce. The club has a few people who are resisting change , but they are in the minority! I have been in the BCA since 1969 and seen it change from a group of people who enjoyed their cars to a club that thought that perfect cars were the only thing worth having.The pendulum is swinging back ! The Driving Enthusiasts and the performance Division are bringing fun back to the BCA. You will find that there is now a small group of BCA people who have cars other than show pieces. I have a 40 super convert that has been to the Meadowbrook Concours and the Eyes on the Classics show at the Ford mansion, but I also have a 72GS that I drag race at the GSCA meets and a 37 Special Coupe that has 455 Buick power and all the usual street rod toys, and I,m 67 ! The young peop[le are going to save this club and I hope you will join them and help!

[The Old Guy]

I agree with Bruce. The club has a few people who are resisting change , but they are in the minority! I have been in the BCA since 1969 and seen it change from a group of people who enjoyed their cars to a club that thought that perfect cars were the only thing worth having.The pendulum is swinging back ! The Driving Enthusiasts and the performance Division are bringing fun back to the BCA. You will find that there is now a small group of BCA people who have cars other than show pieces. I have a 40 super convert that has been to the Meadowbrook Concours and the Eyes on the Classics show at the Ford mansion, but I also have a 72GS that I drag race at the GSCA meets and a 37 Special Coupe that has 455 Buick power and all the usual street rod toys, and I,m 67 ! The young peop[le are going to save this club and I hope you will join them and help! <BR> Joe Taubitz<BR> BCA-1308<BR> BDE- 001<BR> GSCA-3800

[Dave@Moon]

You guys should be reading and posting on the AACA forum. You'd have a <I> lot </I> of fun with them. <P>Modify and enjoy your car all you'd like (I'm making a street rod out of the 1979 Cutlass with my brother myself), but whatever you do don't waste irreplacable pieces of automotive history to do it. In the last 2 years on TNN I've seen a 1933 International and a 1937 Terraplane coupe chopped. Both cars (OK, the car and the truck) could've just as easily been restored stock. Now they're lost to us.<P>I can hear the howling on that line already. <I> "What do you mean, lost! It's in my garage isn't it!!!" </I> Well what I mean is this; if you've been around this hobby long enough, you know what happens to old hot rods. After the first owner/builder dies, the dream of that car is dead as well. Noone has the same hot rod dream as anyone else. They generally become neglected white elephants within the family, preserved in memory of it's owner until disrepair sets in and it must be sold to save it. It then is either raw material to be remade by someone or a parts car. <P>And before anyone starts praising the collectibility of old hot rods, remember that the hot rods being collected all are well into <I> their </I> antique years. People are paying a lot for well done (origional 1950's) lead sled Mercs with 3 vintage dueces on a flathead, but what could you get for a 302 Pinto with a nice 1977 lace/sparkle paint job? Unless your first name is Boyd, you get squat! <P>There are worse fates for cars. In those same 2 years I'm scared to tell you what I and my 8 year old son have seen run through demolition derbies. Here's a hint: IF IT'S MORE THAN 25 YEARS OLD, IT WILL LOSE! Somebody tell these clowns to get a 1975 Impala wagon and stop wasting what are at worst 1950's and 60's parts cars! <P>We have many 1950 Buick sedanettes and 1979 Cutlasses to play with. Losing a few to customizing isn't so bad. But I've seen Huppmobile Skylarks, 1931 Caddys, Edsel convertibles, 1953 Lowey coupes and the like sacrificed thus. I'm glad our club has the forsight and diversity to incorporate modified cars. I'm more glad that our hobby is stronger by their enjoyment. I hope that we can educate the owners and builders of these cars and thereby not lose more to temporal pursuits than we should.<P>We don't own our cars or our land, we rent them from the future. A car is only origional once, it can be restored stock infinately, but it is customized until it dies.

[Guest]

BLAH! a 53 stude coupe is on my list. it would be an aluminum floored, 19 inch billet wheel, rubber band tire all wheel drive road warrior.<P>the 53 stude coupe as designed, we supposed to FLEX to absorb more shocks from the road. guess what about 10 years of that stupid idea does to the car?<P>somethings were not done right from the factory due to poor design or cost considerations. if you fix those things, but you dont alter the strong points of the car (for the lowey coupes, the outer body shell) then you have NOT relegated your vehicle to being the white elephant of your family.<P>i agree that a heavily chopped ford three window is one of the ugliest things i have ever seen. i would not build one, and i am not advocating that you all build one. infact, since you dont like it, i am saying you should _not_ build a modified car.<P>but you _DO_ need to get off your damn high horse about MINE. i love the hupmobile skylark/cord 81x/grahm whatever, and i might own one someday. <P>does the oil in your car original? is the oilfilter NOS? how about the air or fuel filters? have you ever put hardened valve seats in your car so you can run straight unleaded? why not? the car was designed to be driven everyday, and the 'day' has changed, so some minor updates to fix things might be ok for some people.<P>the important (and only) point i am trying to make here, is that that coupe, or my sedanette, or the corvair are MINE. if i want AWD,455,or mid-engine respectively, that is MY problem. go find your own car to restore. <P>in the end, i will be happy with both my car and yours, and it will be only you who has a frown. these cars are supposed to be fun. we should work together fighting things like OBD and crusher programs instead of bitching at one another cause i saved an old car from the brink of death, when YOU were not there to buy it.<P>funny thing that i dont see restorers buying up every car that goes into one of california's crusher programs before it becomes a tin can. every one of those that that gets saved by a guy like me, does not end up holding pork and beans.<P>besides, while i am ranting, how do you know what quality of car a guy started with. i decided to replace the floor pan and frame of my sedanet when i lifted the replacement sheetmetal and saw how bad the swiss cheese was.<P>next time, i will call you and you can come to my house and fix it for me, since you seem to think you know better.<P>allan noah<BR>anoah@pfeiffer.edu<BR>www2.pfeiffer.edu/~man/

[Guest]

Dave, you need to chill out and/or shut up. It seems every thread that you get involved with you make these statements like you know what is best the car collecting public. You are not the restoration police. A totally stock car might be fine for someone and a chopped car is someone else's dreams. I don't know about when you get older but I could care less about going to a car show that has nothing but stock cars.... Even though they are beautiful. To him who pays for the car let them decide what they want to do with it. Spend the summer looking for that missing hubcap or slam it down 4 inches and put some new chrome on. Whatever makes you happy! Its your car have fun with it!<P>Quit shoving your views down everones throats on this board. Its ok to have an opinion but you talk like your statements should be taken as gospel.<P>-b

[Guest]

i am 29 years old and that 79 cutlass that you are building (or destroying in your statement) is the car of my youth. because you are 'removing it from us' my children will never be able to see that car in all its glory. maybe it will never be a classic but you are as guilty of the crime you are accussing everyone else who chops a car up. try stepping out from behind the biased window you are always looking and see things from another perspective. you may be suprised.

[Guest]

Reading through all these posts I have seen mentioned something called the Archive class. Forgive my ignorance, but I am only 20 years old and have only owned my 225 for about 2 months now. What exactly is the Archive class ? Is it for the unrestored daily driver that may even have some light rust in spots and a few mods done to it? <BR>Thanks to all who reply.

[Dave@Moon]

Wisdom awaits us all! <P>I love it. In one foul swoop every negative point about hot rodding is born out! If anyone actually read what I wrote, it was pro-modification. It's knowledge that's the problem, in addition to the easily observed problems with tolerance and perspective. To equate modifying a 21 year old Oldsmobile with a production run of 750,000 to the butchering of a 60 year old Hupmobile with a production run of about 300 is silly. And it is symptomatic of a culture where the owner's ego is more important than the owner's interests.<P>There is a famous true story in the stamp collecting world. The owner of one of the most valuable stamps in existance found out that the only other surviving example of that stamp was goin on auction. He bought it (well over $100,000.00, then the highest price ever paid for a stamp), and met with the seller over dinner that evening. They exchanged the money and stamp at the dinner table. The seller remarked "Congratulations, you now own the only 2 examples of this stamp!" The buyer lit a cigar and burnt the stamp. He said, "The only <I> one! </I> ". He later made a fortune selling the other stamp, but he was a pariah in the stamp community for the rest of his life.<P>What if it makes you happy to paint a moustache on the Mona Lisa? What if it makes you happy to eat condor omlets? What if it makes you happy to run Bugattis in demolition derbys? <P>The guy who burnt the stamp knew what he was destroying and that he was destroying it. If he wanted to make it better he could've re-engraved the portrait of Queen Elizabeth, hightened the colors, regummed it, chemically treated the paper to improve its appearance or printed Neve Campbell's picture on it to make it look better. But he would've done all of that with the full knowledge of the rarity and irreplacability of his raw material. <P>Making your car better for you is all well and good, God knows I've done it in one form or other to all of mine. But don't pretend for one minute that because it's better for you that it better for anyone else, or that anyone else will appreciate those changes the way and to the degree that you do. <P>And don't forget that the body of material we have to work with shrinks daily, no matter what kind of car we're building. Do you <I> really </I> want to be known as the guy who used the last NOS 1953 Studebaker grille in the world for a chopped, monotone yellow big-block street rod? And if that doesn't bother you now, how long from now will it?<P>The funny part of all of this is that the guys on the AACA side of this forum hate me for being <I> much </I> too pro-modification for their tastes (I really got slammed by Sal G over there today, in fact). It's the tolerance and perspective issues that needs to be continually addressed here to keep our hobby strong. This is a community and needs to be treated as such, not just something you selfishly do to make yourself happy. <P>And if all of this sounds too smug to you, then you're probably critiquing and looking for self-reinforcement rather than trying to digest the content. Sorry! <p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 07-27-2000).]

[Dave@Moon]

By the way, 73Electra, I'm not the judging expert here but I believe that the in archive class a limited amount of rust might be OK (w/ point deductions of course), but the mods are definately out.

[Guest]

Dave, you are what is wrong with the hobby today. You are an old man that pushes his beliefs on the next generation of car collectors. I am guessing you are 55 years old+ because you cannot remember what it was like to be 25 years old. How would you react to yourself 25 years ago? This hobby is about fun and enjoyment, not about resposibility to the next generation. My children will not car about some 1945 Ford that is in mint condition. Face it, the love for those cars dies more and more as that generation passes away. Just as the love of musclecars will fade away with generation after.... <P>Is it a shame that a very rare care gets chopped up? Yes, but it is not my place to tell that person what is right. Dave, are you listening?<P>As for you stories. Value is not a constant. I love hearing stories about something that someone bought for $100 but they say it is worth $2000. No, it is worth $100, when you sell it for $2000 then it is worth $2000. The value of a car differs greatly from person to person.<P>This is not the place for another 'Dave vs. the World' debate so I am finished. My apologies to all the good people on this message board that have to continue to put up with this guy. Do you ever help anyone or just start conflict?<P>-b

[Guest]

dave dont know if you are familiar with the term 'troll', but you are one <P>i think stamp collecting is about as far from car _building_ as you can get. the analogy is quite poor.<P>if i got my hands on a beautiful, fully original cord l-29, i would not cut it up, cause i _DO_ feel the appreciation for these old vehicles that you do. however, when i buy a POS 53 stude that has a crappy grille, i WONT buy the only NOS one around and paint it yellow, i will use silver solder to fill the one i have and paint it, cause that is what rodders do, man.<P>just cause i am a hotrodder, does not mean that i am a. stupid, b. willing to by nos equipment just to paint it, c. malicious.<P>hell, i dont even like monochrome cars. the fact that you assume that i have no love for old cars, and want to paint every piece of chrome just shows that you did not read MY post.<P>allan noah<BR>

[Dave@Moon]

I just have to.<P>A: I'm a <I> LOT </I> closer to 35 than 55. Someday neither one of us will. And to be honest, the vast majority of serious hot-rodders I know are over 55 anyway. <P>B: I once saw an L-29 Cord with a 428 Ford in it (it rhymed, somebody thought it was cute!), so there really are people in the world who appreciate the inherent value of rare iron less than you!<P>C: If car collecting doesn't exist, why are there two major magazines with the name in the title (Car Collector and Collectible Automobile)? If it exists, then the stamp analogy stands.<P>D: Why do so many people buy one of the major antique car value guides regularly if the cars don't have constant values? And if interest in the cars wanes so badly over the years, where's my valuless (and therefore free) brass-era touring car?<P>E: Rare, even unobtainable pieces go to street rod projects every day. Ever try to find nice 1956 Packard tail lights. You could walk Carlisle all day. I saw 2 sets at a car cruise Wed. night, but they weren't on Packards.<P>F: Help can only be given when it's requested and accepted. Do you guys read any of the other threads?<P>G: No body tells anyone what to do with their cars, that much is true. But as a community there is a social framework to what we do, and some things will be seen as unacceptable by a majority of the members of that framework. It is nebulous, but there are guidelines that can be discerned (otherwise you wouldn't be wasting your time soldering that Stude's grille). Also those guidelines change over time. That was the only point being made, if anyone "conflicts" with that, sorry (see point F).<P>H: Nobody cares what you're going to do to modify your street rod the way you care, that's why I didn't bore anyone here with the details of the Cutlass. Specifics aren't the point of the discussion, don't look for solace in them.<P>You can enjoy your car (stock, rod or custom) and be an asset to the hobby and it's future, or you can just be as a$$. You can do the same collecting knives, guns or fine wines. It's not cut and dried or a total hedonistic free-for-all. <p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 07-28-2000).]

[Guest COMPACTBC]

73 Electra, the Archive Class is another name for an all ORIGINAL car that has not been restored in any way and with NO MODIFICATIONS of any kind. Hope this helps you to understand some of the terminology that appears in this site from time to time.<P>------------------<BR><p>[This message has been edited by COMPACTBC (edited 07-28-2000).]

[Guest]

When were the 2000 nationals? I am soon to be a member of the BCA, but here where I live in Illinois, I am one of a very few Buick lovers, most of evryone else here are for "Mushtangs", and Camaros. I am 20, and soon to be 21, so I might be one of the younger members. I have just really gotten into going to shows, and I am very happy with the consistancy of my 68 Skylark, but with some of the local "car clubs", they don't know how to judge Buicks, I have looked, and there are usually only 3 Buicks at the most counting mine that enter. Does anyone know where the 2001 Nationals are going to be held and when? Also can anyone tell me when or if there is an all Buick show down in Bristol, Tennessee?

[Guest]

well dave, i can definately see where you are going, with this 'community' stuff, but honestly, the point i was trying to make in that last post is: some folks look at my car and see what might have been. they see it totally stock and hate the fact that i sawed it up. <P>well, guess what, rodders and customizers like myself are often relegated to patching dented, rusty, shot-up, bashed in tin cause all the good cars are sitting in some rich guy's 40 car garage in neat little rows.<P>when you look at my car, make sure to ask to see the pictures of how bad it looked when i bought it. that is car building. stamps most definately do not work that way.<P>cars can be fixed, parts can be found, stuff can be fabbed, stamps, NAH! <P>oh- btw, pretty sure they make repro 56 pack. taillites, so dont get your panties in a wad. the ones you saw at cruise night may not be original <P>and, i DO care about what you do to modify your car. if you are thoughtful, you might have some neat ideas i can use <P>the only thing i am asking for here is for this community of yours, and esp. BCA, to turn its head around and actually look at its members. i sincerly doubt that the 'majority' you so humbly speak for are as unwilling to accept my buick as a few i have met.<P>i want to get together at the next nationals, (def. the one in 2003) and park my modified special in the sun next to a restored 50 sedanet, and talk buick lore with the owner all day. i will love his car for the history it represents, and for how it highlights the changes i have made to mine. the big question is, will he be pissed of at me for being there with a modified car?<P>for the sake of this 'community' i hope he leaves his attitude problem at home.<P>allan noah<BR>anoah@pfeiffer.edu<BR>www2.pfeiffer.edu/~anoah/buick/

[Bill Stoneberg]

As an owner of a 47 4 door (modified), a 49 sedanette (original), and a 50 Estate Wagon (being restored stock) I applaud your choice of custom material. <BR>Come park by me if you want to, I will be happy to talk about your car, my car, or cars in general.Dave, you are welcome too.<BR>I like your ideas and the picture of your future custom and I am SOOOO happy you are not putting a small block (borrrring) in it.<P><BR>Bill<P>[This message has been edited by Bill Stoneberg (edited 07-29-2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Bill Stoneberg (edited 07-29-2000).]