Buick Nailhead help

61 bubbletop · September 4, 2013

I'm in Los Angeles and my 61 Buick with a 364 Nailhead is at my friend’s house in Van Nuys. The car was running fine until it was backfiring through the carb. It had 4 bad lobes on the camshaft and was still running. I have changed my camshaft, cam bearings, timing gears, chain, lifters, rods, and couldn't get my car started. I did not degree the cam when I put it in. I was told by Elgin and the guy I bought it from that I should not have to.

I got the right firing. I put the timing chain and gears in tdc and according to the manual. I have checked the timing, it has good compression, firing stroke, correct firing order and can’t get my car running good. I then changed my carter carb with an Eldebrock 1406 and it started but the rpms are too low, It will idle with the carb held wide open and the valves are hardly moving. The stock nonadjustable rockers are in it. Some of the new rods from Egges seem too loose against the rocker arms. The valves don't look like they are moving very much.

I have been trying to get it going for over a few weeks. I made sure all the cam bearing holes lined up. I put in a stock 401 cam E-564-S from northern auto parts, Vl-3 lifters, 364 push rods from Egges. Cylinder 1 on the passenger side is on the firing stroke, the rotor is facing 1, and timing is at 12. I got a 1406 Eldebrock carb. Flame thrower coil, Petronix points which were in the motor before and worked. New plug wires, distributor cap and ac 45s plugs. I soaked the lifters in oil first but did not pump them. I thinking maybe the lifters are not pumping up but I don't know why they wouldn't by now when the car has started. They lifters are VL-3 's according to the box.

I tried again to get it going with no luck. It will turn over but it will barely idle. I looked at it with the valve cover off and they are barely moving. I have read so much at this point but I don't where to go from here. I thought I did everything right, timing, firing order, etc. Everybody has a different idea but nothing is working so far. My next step is to tear it apart again or find a shop. I haven't been able to find a shop that wants to work on a nailhead or is familiar with them.

I took the valley pan off, the cam is still good. I turned the oil pump shaft with a drill and screw driver. And there is pressure of 45 to 50 on the oil sensor but I don't see any oil coming up through the engine. I'm not sure what the oil path is on the nailhead. Do I need have an old distributor shaft to move the oil through the engine? Also the push rods are loose against the rockers. There seems like there is too much play. I feel like the none adjustable stock rockers should be tighter against the rods, I’m wondering if the rockers are worn but again the car ran before with a bad cam. Some of the push rods are very noticeably loose. I pulled a new lifter out and there was no oil in it.

This is a daily driver and you know what it's like not having a car in LA. I'm becoming very desperate and grasping at straws I need help or someone that can come look at it with me in Van Nuys to figure it out or a nailhead knowledgeable mechanic that I can bring it to in southern California close to Los Angeles area.

Steff Garletts 323-605-3795

JohnD1956 · September 4, 2013

I don't have the answer for you but I am certain it is not the rockers. If they were good before the initial tear down I don't know how they could go bad if the engine has been barely run after reassembly.

You indicated you had a manual to show how to orient the timing gears and chain. The manual should have the oil galley paths. It sounds to me like something is blocking the oil path. And early on in the oiling process. I would not run the engine again till you are certain you have some oil flow to the main bearings.

Let me throw out a few other things I'm reading in your message.

Loose push rods against the rockers? I'm sure you checked the new push rods against the originals for length?

I'm also sure you checked those loose pushrods to see if they were bent?

Un primed lifters? I'm sure you checked with the lifters removed to see if oil flows into the lifter galley? If not, back to square one. If so, do the lifters have to be oriented a certain way to get the oil into them? PS: I know some say the lifters should not be primed. I don't know what the science is behind that but it would seem to me that if a lifter is primed as the engine is rotated then you stand a big chance of damaging a pushrod in that process.

Pertronix: Willie just posted in another thread that he found the pertronix meant he had to change the timing setting to get it to run good. I don't have a pertronix so I am not familiar with them. But I assume you marked the distributor before it was removed including the position of the rotor as well as the position of the housing? Maybe you are one or to teeth off in the distributor gearing?

Edited September 5, 2013 by JohnD1956 (see edit history)

TexasJohn55 · September 4, 2013

Steff, did you have oil pressure on the guage while cranking? It sure sounds like no oil pressure. If it is building oil pressure while cranking, it would have filled the lifters and fired off by now........unless of course it is not getting to the lifter galleys.

jackofalltrades70 · September 4, 2013

Seems to me that Mudbone had problems with push rods and such when he rebuilt his engine. I think that length was an issue, but not completely sure. If your lifters aren't pumped your valves aren't going to open and close correctly. You should be able to pull the coil wire and cranking should bring oil to the top.

It also seems that you have no fuel flow so you may have an issue there with the cam and fuel pump alignment.

NTX5467 · September 5, 2013

A few things make my forehead wrinkle . . . and it already has plenty!

First thing . . . why were the cam bearings replaced? Normally, unless you do a complete rebuild and vat the block, cam bearings are a very low wear bearing in the engine so no real need to replace them for just a cam change.

Second thing . . . I might not know everything about Nailheads, BUT I'd want to verify which cylinder is #1! Most GM engines have #1 cylinder designated as on the driver's side. Again, I'm not sure about Nailheads, BUT I'd check the service manual on this small point of interest. What that might mean is that the distributor is 180 degrees away from where it needs to fire!

A related bit of information is that, with Chevy V-8s, when the dots on the cam sprocket and crank sprocket are "close", #6 cylinder is firing, NOT the presumed #1 cylinder. When the dots are aligned vertically, but apart, that's when #1 cylinder fires. Again, not sure about Nailheads, but some other Nailhead people might verify this situation, one way or another. Also, it's IMPERATIVE that the dots be EXACTLY lined up, when together -- period. Just a little bit off is not close enough. Has to be exact. Just as your determination of true TDC has to be exact . . . from piston movement rather than a timing mark on the crank balancer/pulley.

Third . . . many engine builders like to soak their hydraulic valve lifters over-night prior to putting them in the engine. This lets the lifters' inner chamber fill with oil rather than relying upon engine oil pressure to fill them AND purge any air from them as the engine starts. Usually, there's already some assembly oil in the lifter, but that's not enough for them to function correctly right off the bat. Unless they get fully filled with oil, the resistance from the valve springs will collapse the inner spring in the lifters and the valves will not open as much as they should.

On the issue of oil pressure . . . I'm not sure why that if you've got good oil pressure when priming the pump with a drill motor, that oil is not gushing everywhere. There should be something, somewhere, with a graphic of the oil flow in the motor. Either the oil goes first to the crank or it goes first to the lifters, then to other places in the engine. This oil flow can be influenced by the oil holes in the cam bearings and their positioning in their bores. Crank bearings are more dedicated in this respect. Research this aspect of things from known credible Nailhead resources -- only -- looking at several different sources for concurrance.

As for the pushrods . . . they DO have to be a certainl length with particular types of ends on them. They should be FIRMLY seated in the valve lifter and also firmly against the bottom of the rocker arm -- period. Make sure you were sent the correct pushrods for the model year of the valve lifters AND engine. In some cases, running changes can result in what was correct for one year NOT being correct for the next year's engines. AND don't presume the vendors who supplied these parts to be "the experts" you might desire them to be . . . usually, they are just looking in a catalog and that might well be the extent of their knowledge of what they're selling, by observation. Valve lifters and pushrods do have to be a "matched set", of sorts.

As for "transportation in LA", you might consider getting a weekly rental vehicle from one of the name-brand national car rental companies. This way you're not relying upon others and/or public transportation in the mean time.

Since you're in the LA area, you might seek out the Los Angeles Chapter, BCA, chapter president for possible places to find credible and reliable information on Buick Nailhead V-8s, with respect to replacement parts and such, plus possibly some engine builders in that area who know about Nailheads. He might be more attuned to the middle 1950s cars, but hopefully he might have some contacts who could help determine just how correct some of the replacement parts you have might be for your application.

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Regards,

NTX5467

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