No TEVES ABS system on the ebay TC, just booster and master cylinder.

[ghostymosty]

I seem to remember a few posts from people wishing to have a TC with a regular brake system, well here is your chance.

I went to buy it today and left it there. The high bidder never contacted the seller so I went to get it, took all the stuff like oil, coolant, etc that I thought I might need to drive it home. Got there, looked at the outside and it was good enough for what I wanted, opened the hood, saw labels on the top radiator hose and generally thought it would get me home. I looked over to the accumulator spot and saw NOTHING, turns out the car has a power booster and regular master cylinder on it which was a deal breaker for me-I want the antilock system on my TC and don't want to worry about whether someone else has changed over the brake system correctly. The VIN on this one is zc2fs1208mb208509 and I updated the database to show that the Teves is gone.

My overall impression of the car was pretty good for an average TC, some tearing in the leather on the driver's seat at the normal spots that get holes by the doors, missing the handle for the fuel door lever, had the umbrella but was missing the toolkit and the spare was flat. The passenger headlight has what looks like a BB hole in it, could be covered by the plastic protectors that are available. Still has TC emblem on the windshield but water spotting made it hard to tell if there were any stars in it.

I never started it up, no need to waste the dealer's gasoline when I knew I wasn't getting it at that point. I also didn't look at whether it is a repaint but nothing jumped out at me except the lack of a stripe on the sides.

The inside leather has a little shrinkage but not rock hard yet, or supple either. The defroster area has enough shrinkage to be pulling threads apart and distorting a little bit.

I got home and the dealer had relisted it on ebay but added two shots of the engine compartment and one shows the booster.

[ghostymosty]

I guess nobody else is interested in a TC already converted to regular power brakes either.

[Hemi Dude]

I seem to remember a few posts from people wishing to have a TC with a regular brake system, well here is your chance.

I went to buy it today and left it there. The high bidder never contacted the seller so I went to get it, took all the stuff like oil, coolant, etc that I thought I might need to drive it home. Got there, looked at the outside and it was good enough for what I wanted, opened the hood, saw labels on the top radiator hose and generally thought it would get me home. I looked over to the accumulator spot and saw NOTHING, turns out the car has a power booster and regular master cylinder on it which was a deal breaker for me-I want the antilock system on my TC and don't want to worry about whether someone else has changed over the brake system correctly. The VIN on this one is zc2fs1208mb208509 and I updated the database to show that the Teves is gone.

My overall impression of the car was pretty good for an average TC, some tearing in the leather on the driver's seat at the normal spots that get holes by the doors, missing the handle for the fuel door lever, had the umbrella but was missing the toolkit and the spare was flat. The passenger headlight has what looks like a BB hole in it, could be covered by the plastic protectors that are available. Still has TC emblem on the windshield but water spotting made it hard to tell if there were any stars in it.

I never started it up, no need to waste the dealer's gasoline when I knew I wasn't getting it at that point. I also didn't look at whether it is a repaint but nothing jumped out at me except the lack of a stripe on the sides.

The inside leather has a little shrinkage but not rock hard yet, or supple either. The defroster area has enough shrinkage to be pulling threads apart and distorting a little bit.

I got home and the dealer had relisted it on ebay but added two shots of the engine compartment and one shows the booster.

The VERY BEST thing anyone who wants to have trouble-free brakes on a TC can do is REMOVE the Tevis ABS brake system!

The way it was done plays a very large roll as to the dependability of the brake system.

If you go to ALLPAR.COM, you can read the article I wrote on 'How I did it' in the Chrysler TC section. Pictures are included of all the steps and parts needed. Just find a qualified mechanic to do the work.

I just finished a 7,200 mile drive around this country, through the Washington DC area, down to Tampa FL., back up through Charlotte NC., and home. My brakes work just like on any car without ABS, it stops dependably and I don't have to worry about the failure of the pump, the hydraulic assembly or the accumulator.

So, just what's wrong with the brake system that ALL the other Chrysler cars in that era were equipped with?

[ghostymosty]

The problem with this one is that the dealer had no idea it had been changed over and therefore no idea what parts were used on it. One of the great things about the TC is that it had antilock brakes, they work great as long as maintenance is done and they are not just ignored. Now if this conversion were done by you, I would have brought the car home confident that it was done correctly, but wondering if an ABS could be added from some more modern Chrysler. After a lot of years in Inland SoCal I doubt that pumping the brake pedal would be a first reaction to wheels locking up, and I don't like to think about the result of driving behind someone doing a panic stop with ABS and me not having it.

The car has since been removed from its relisting on ebay due to 'no longer available' and also removed from craigslist the next day so I have to assume someone bought the car.

[TCParts]

Removing the ABS system from a TC is not a smart thing to do. Even my 1990 Chrysler Imperial has ABS, so Chrysler was already putting ABS systems in their cars in 1989. IF you do remove the ABS you are required to tell your insurance agent the car has been significantly modified and you may not be able to get it insured. If you are in a collision and the insurance company finds out you removed the ABS without notifying them, they could deny the claim. This was verified at the TC America National meet in May by one of the largest TC insurers in the country. I have an unusually high number of salvage TCs without ABS and totaled because of a front end collision. Grundy and Haggerty will not insure a TC with the ABS brakes removed. I have never had a TC brake failure in scores of cross country trips. Most failures are caused by lack of maintenance by the owner. I have one with 322,000 miles and the original ABS system still works just fine.

[Hemi Dude]

Removing the ABS system from a TC is not a smart thing to do. Even my 1990 Chrysler Imperial has ABS, so Chrysler was already putting ABS systems in their cars in 1989. IF you do remove the ABS you are required to tell your insurance agent the car has been significantly modified and you may not be able to get it insured. If you are in a collision and the insurance company finds out you removed the ABS without notifying them, they could deny the claim. This was verified at the TC America National meet in May by one of the largest TC insurers in the country. I have an unusually high number of salvage TCs without ABS and totaled because of a front end collision. Grundy and Haggerty will not insure a TC with the ABS brakes removed. I have never had a TC brake failure in scores of cross country trips. Most failures are caused by lack of maintenance by the owner. I have one with 322,000 miles and the original ABS system still works just fine.

And how many TCs do you have that have front end collision damage due to a failure of the ABS system? In either case, it would be difficult to verify.

It is obvious that Larry Carlson and I differ 180 degrees on this issue. Maybe because he is interested in selling you his rebuilt ABS parts. I'm glad that I'm retired, so you won't have to deal with me.

May I add, we own other Chrysler built cars, one that was built in the mid 90s without ABS. They all stop just fine without it!

Is everyone such a wimp that they have to depend on ABS braking systems in order to stop their cars? And what, oh what, will you all do when your hydraulic assembly or the pump fails? That is the question.

I do agree, the ABS system on the TC works real well, considering it was Chrysler's first attempt at ABS, as long as it is maintained, the system flushed regularly and the accumulator is in good operating condition among other things. The day will come when you have a major failure of the system, I have merely suggested and demonstrated one way to overcome the lack of quality replacement ABS parts when that time comes.

[TCParts]

Hemi,

I recall you wrecking your TC in a front end collision on your way to Arizona. Did that car have ABS? There is a reason insurance companies give discounts for vehicles with ABS systems and airbags. They have less claims. Out of the 200 salvage cars I have, not one of the owners said they were in a collision because the ABS system failed. Two of the last ones without ABS did, and regretted being conned into a hack job non-ABS system which in the end cost almost as much as having a proper high-quality remanufactured unit that would last another couple decades. With the ABS system the car can still stop with additional pressure from the driver if the pump fails - basically two levels of safety. With a basic non-ABS system if the master cylinder goes out the pedal goes to the floor and that's it. Having two levels of safety, ability to properly insure the vehicle, having a system that was designed, built and sold with the car seems like a much better set-up. Of course I have passion for the TC, and unlike you who made money off the cars and installing non-ABS systems, I have never taken a draw from TC parts. IRS considers us a "hobby". Every dollar is spent acquiring wrecked cars or finding ways to keep our cars on the road. I find parts for owners and only warranty items installed by an ASE certified mechanic to assure they are properly trained and proper installation is warrantied. Never having been in a front end collision and having ABS on all my cars but my Citroens and 1980's Imperials and 1964 Imperial (which I have replaced the master cylinder on) either makes me a real good driver or using the ABS to stop in rain and snow a real benefit. I don't consider not being in a collision being a wimp. Professional drivers have proven that stopping in a non-ABS system equipped vehicle can actually have shorter stopping distances, but most TC owners are not professionals and are in a panic situation when the ABS kicks in. That is where the ABS is the difference between damage or no damage - to the car or the occupants.

[Hemi Dude]

Hemi,

I recall you wrecking your TC in a front end collision on your way to Arizona. Did that car have ABS? There is a reason insurance companies give discounts for vehicles with ABS systems and airbags. They have less claims. Out of the 200 salvage cars I have, not one of the owners said they were in a collision because the ABS system failed. Two of the last ones without ABS did, and regretted being conned into a hack job non-ABS system which in the end cost almost as much as having a proper high-quality remanufactured unit that would last another couple decades. With the ABS system the car can still stop with additional pressure from the driver if the pump fails - basically two levels of safety. With a basic non-ABS system if the master cylinder goes out the pedal goes to the floor and that's it. Having two levels of safety, ability to properly insure the vehicle, having a system that was designed, built and sold with the car seems like a much better set-up. Of course I have passion for the TC, and unlike you who made money off the cars and installing non-ABS systems, I have never taken a draw from TC parts. IRS considers us a "hobby". Every dollar is spent acquiring wrecked cars or finding ways to keep our cars on the road. I find parts for owners and only warranty items installed by an ASE certified mechanic to assure they are properly trained and proper installation is warrantied. Never having been in a front end collision and having ABS on all my cars but my Citroens and 1980's Imperials and 1964 Imperial (which I have replaced the master cylinder on) either makes me a real good driver or using the ABS to stop in rain and snow a real benefit. I don't consider not being in a collision being a wimp. Professional drivers have proven that stopping in a non-ABS system equipped vehicle can actually have shorter stopping distances, but most TC owners are not professionals and are in a panic situation when the ABS kicks in. That is where the ABS is the difference between damage or no damage - to the car or the occupants.

Thank you for your somewhat informative personal update. Maybe you could elaborate on your perception of my "front end collision". Take a good shot at it so everyone will be entertained.

[TCParts]

Since I have never been in a front end collision and was not there to witness yours, your version would be much more entertaining than mine. I don't speculate, I prefer to use facts and evidence to back my statements, like insurance claim data to show ABS systems and airbags cause less damage to vehicles and their occupants.

[Hemi Dude]

Since I have never been in a front end collision and was not there to witness yours, your version would be much more entertaining than mine. I don't speculate, I prefer to use facts and evidence to back my statements, like insurance claim data to show ABS systems and airbags cause less damage to vehicles and their occupants.

Well sport, that incident you are jawing about happened in May of 1999 while I was still on medication after almost dying from a botched surgery when I had major prostate surgery. I probably shouldn't have attempted to make it that year, but at the time, our club president was depending on me to be there.

I was driving east early in the morning, into the sun, on I-10 at 605 FWY on my way to the Palm Springs TC Meet, not to Arizona as you mistakenly assumed. Brakes were not involved in any manner. I never touched the brake pedal until AFTER the incident. I never saw the clown that pulled in, in front of my car.

The conversion from ABS was in 2011, before I closed my shop and retired.

So that's 2 strikes against you! Here comes the next pitch... swing and a miss! You're out. Now keep your mouth shut!

We are here to assist other owners with their problems, not to have a pissing contest.

You are entitled to your (mechanical ?) opinion and I am entitled to mine. I have over 52 years in the auto repair field, how many do you have?

You get the last word, if you wish.... Have fun in Florida.

[TCParts]

Hemi,

Just because someone does something for a long time does not make them good, honest or successful. I rebuilt my first engine in 1978 after taking college level power mechanics classes at Northern Arizona University. The fact that I have worked on cars for 35 years does not give me the privilege to call myself a mechanic. I have never charged labor for assisting friends, family, co-workers and other TC owners for the services I provide, as I am not ASE certified. For full disclosure, I have been given gifts in appreciation for some of the work I have done after TC owners had bad experiences with others who have worked on their TCs. As you are well aware, the reason I started my TC parts hobby is because you ripped me off as well as many other TC owners who unknowingly took their cars to you for simple repairs that you had convinced were major items that only YOU could work on. 15 years ago I wasted over $500 for a simple fusible link repair and botched vacuum leak that you never fixed - I (a non-ASE certified mechanic, like you) had to repair it myself after being disgusted with your astronomical charge for a TC that came in with a working turbo and left without it because of the improper vacuum line placement. It was a 10 or 15 minute job for me to repair what you botched and charged me several hours labor for. After hearing similar stories from scores of other TC owners, a few of us banded together and purchased salvage cars and started diagnosing and repairing TCs ourselves. I don't have to go on forums under aliases like you do, using your "Uncles" name and George W like you do. Instead of spreading borderline misinformation I write to folks privately and write articles for the TC America club newsletter about their cars and how to maintain them. My articles are proofed and collaborated with REAL ASE certified mechanics who own legitimate businesses and are familiar with the TC as well as countless other cars.

As for your collision, that is not the same as what you said at the 2000 meet in Arizona when you discussed the $2,000 right headlight. (and no, I have never charged $2,000 for a right headlight) Your lack of judgement in driving a car while impaired (no matter what your excuse may be) has apparently not changed.

We do not differ in *opinion* on the ABS system which this thread was started about. I am letting owners know the facts about the consequences of being misled into doing something that is being presented to them by someone who apparently does not care about the safety of owners or their cars. If you can provide FACTUAL evidence that driving a vehicle without ABS is consistently safer than driving a car with ABS, I invite you to. If not, I encourage any owner that is in a collision because of your advice as "a professional mechanic" to personally sue you for giving such advice that could cost them their life. My insurance company will not allow me to sell used brake parts off the hydraulic system because the liability is so high. Converting a system would fall under that category. I send ABS units to a company who uses professionals that warranty their parts in writing and have more experience working on cars than your and my ages combined. I think the expertise of insurance companies to determine the appropriateness, risks and cost/benefits of having an ABS system or not is far greater than any single individual on this forum.

For owners that may consider switching their factory ABS brake systems into a non-ABS system, please check your insurance policy to see if your car currently has the endorsement for "ABS discount". This not only applies to the TC, but to most modern cars and major insurance companies. Most insurance companies will give the discount to policy holders automatically if the cars VIN number indicates the presence of ABS.

I invite forum members to read the article I wrote regarding this subject in the March 2013 TC America newsletter which was vetted by ASE Certified mechanics. It explains the ABS system in simple to understand language and explains how to assist in the troubleshooting of your ABS system, or to assist your mechanic if they are not familiar with the Chrysler version of the Teves system. The TC service manual refers to the 6500 Miller tool which is not necessary to diagnose the system. I have walked dozens of mechanics through the diagnosis process over the phone after they wasted a lot of time unsuccessfully trying to figure the system out. This has saved many owners hundreds of dollars and countless hours of aggravation by mechanics. Many times a $2 fuse can restart the system so the owner or mechanic can determine what is wrong to correct the problem quickly.

[Hemi Dude]

Hemi,

Just because someone does something for a long time does not make them good, honest or successful. I rebuilt my first engine in 1978 after taking college level power mechanics classes at Northern Arizona University. The fact that I have worked on cars for 35 years does not give me the privilege to call myself a mechanic. I have never charged labor for assisting friends, family, co-workers and other TC owners for the services I provide, as I am not ASE certified. For full disclosure, I have been given gifts in appreciation for some of the work I have done after TC owners had bad experiences with others who have worked on their TCs. As you are well aware, the reason I started my TC parts hobby is because you ripped me off as well as many other TC owners who unknowingly took their cars to you for simple repairs that you had convinced were major items that only YOU could work on. 15 years ago I wasted over $500 for a simple fusible link repair and botched vacuum leak that you never fixed - I (a non-ASE certified mechanic, like you) had to repair it myself after being disgusted with your astronomical charge for a TC that came in with a working turbo and left without it because of the improper vacuum line placement. It was a 10 or 15 minute job for me to repair what you botched and charged me several hours labor for. After hearing similar stories from scores of other TC owners, a few of us banded together and purchased salvage cars and started diagnosing and repairing TCs ourselves. I don't have to go on forums under aliases like you do, using your "Uncles" name and George W like you do. Instead of spreading borderline misinformation I write to folks privately and write articles for the TC America club newsletter about their cars and how to maintain them. My articles are proofed and collaborated with REAL ASE certified mechanics who own legitimate businesses and are familiar with the TC as well as countless other cars.

We do not differ in *opinion* on the ABS system which this thread was started about. I am letting owners know the facts about the consequences of being misled into doing something that is being presented to them by someone who apparently does not care about the safety of owners or their cars. If you can provide FACTUAL evidence that driving a vehicle without ABS is consistently safer than driving a car with ABS, I invite you to. If not, I encourage any owner that is in a collision because of your advice as "a professional mechanic" to personally sue you for giving such advice that could cost them their life. My insurance company will not allow me to sell used brake parts off the hydraulic system because the liability is so high. Converting a system would fall under that category. I send ABS units to a company who uses professionals that warranty their parts in writing and have more experience working on cars than your and my ages combined. I think the expertise of insurance companies to determine the appropriateness, risks and cost/benefits of having an ABS system or not is far greater than any single individual on this forum.

For owners that may consider switching their factory ABS brake systems into a non-ABS system, please check your insurance policy to see if your car currently has the endorsement for "ABS discount". This not only applies to the TC, but to most modern cars and major insurance companies. Most insurance companies will give the discount to policy holders automatically if the cars VIN number indicates the presence of ABS.

I invite forum members to read the article I wrote regarding this subject in the March 2013 TC America newsletter which was vetted by ASE Certified mechanics. It explains the ABS system in simple to understand language and explains how to assist in the troubleshooting of your ABS system, or to assist your mechanic if they are not familiar with the Chrysler version of the Teves system. The TC service manual refers to the 6500 Miller tool which is not necessary to diagnose the system. I have walked dozens of mechanics through the diagnosis process over the phone after they wasted a lot of time unsuccessfully trying to figure the system out. This has saved many owners hundreds of dollars and countless hours of aggravation by mechanics. Many times a $2 fuse can restart the system so the owner or mechanic can determine what is wrong to correct the problem quickly.

Well readers, you can easily see that this is a very bitter and vindictive person.

I initially gave you my opinion as to the ABS brakes on the TC automobiles. Being nearly 74 years old now and having given up my shop, the place I earned my living, back in 2011.

Prior to that closing, I decided to do my car as described so that in my old age, I did not have to be concerned about any failure of a system only used on this model of Chrysler Corporation built cars.

I wrote about how I did it and presented that to you all.

Unfortunately we live in a country where anyone can SUE someone else for just about anything, even looking at them the wrong way.

Mr. Carlson has brought before you allegations that he is unable to substantiate and proof of the digging into my background which is none of his business.

He reminds me of all that which we so despise about our current government, that of looking into every nook and cranny of our lives.

The email address using my uncle's name is a private email address, however he has been looking there and elsewhere apparently. It shows how desperate he is to find some "DIRT" on me.

I have presented my opinion and even the facts on the 1999 accident that Mr. Carlson brought to light.

Now, let me ask you. Is that anything that should be brought up in this forum?

I had a business in California. The Bureau of Automobile Repair in California is very efficient in bringing charges against shop owners who have been accused of anything shady or illegal.

In the 21 years that I had my own business, I had only one charge leveled against me be a customer. That was that I had not done the labor operations that I charged for on the repair order. (I spare you the lengthy details) When the BAR investigated it, at my facility, they went away telling me "Don't do such a perfect and clean job that the customer cannot see that you worked on his car."

There is a pole, not originated by me, that you may participate in. Let us have your vote for all to see. I am totally able to accept the vote either way.

I rest my case!

[Bill Reichert]

I'm with Hemi. I am 69 and still kicking. I learned how to avoid locking the brakes. Drift corners before radial tires. I don't tailgate. I drive an automatic with 2 feet. When someone is waiting to pull out, my left foot is over the brake pedal. I still drive a 5 speed also. I think the Teves system is just a fancy gadget. ABS lets you choose WHAT you are going to hit. Something else I don't like is the electronic stability control on my 2010 Sebring along with the crummy rotors that overheat and hot spot. I'm getting back to restoring 3 turbo Chryslers after a few years of weather disasters kept me busy elsewhere. I know how to counter steer in a skid. My two scariest skids were on black ice at 70 (just sit back and enjoy the ride?) And wet blacktop with gasoline on it from previous accident. Heck I had a Renault Dauphine on 2 wheels at 50 and brought it back down on all 4 while taking a curve.

I think Larry is providing a service to the average driver of these cars though. Larry you just missed a steal in St. Louis! I paid $3,000 for a red TC with 40,000 miles that is mint. Even the driver floor mat looks like no shoe has ever touched it. The po's mechanic missed the Fuel pressure regulator when chasing down a code 13. Now I have to fit some carpet to cover the carpet!

Everyone can have an accident. I talked to one of the stunt drivers from "The Italian Job" and they totaled 30 cars filming that movie.

Soo I guess both of you are right in your own view. Correct that. I guess both of you are correct in your own way. I don't want to start another confusing battle over the right left difference between Italy and the US.

Bill Reichert aka the Looneytuner on TurboDodge and Turbo-Mopar.

[TCParts]

Bill,

You are a good driver and know how to use a non-ABS system. I stated in one of the notes above that professional drivers have proven that they can stop faster in a non-ABS equipped car than one with ABS, and that the panic stops are where ABS helps. It is nice to know that an enthusiast got the car in St Louis. There still are a lot of cream puffs out there which are starting to surface. A red/black 5 speed with 700 miles not too long ago was shipped from CA to the east coast.

As for Hemi and his personal attacks: Bitter and vindictive - he was writing to the man in the mirror. I *am* a bit bitter that I have spent years cleaning up the messes he made for TC owners. But vindictive he has confused with honest and factual. I write what I know of as factual and what I can back up with empirical data. He has not provided any verifiable evidence to the contrary.

His aliases are common knowledge on the forum. His inability to take personal responsibility for his words, actions and lack of judgement is inexcusable. People that won't take personal responsibility for their own actions is a problem in this country and why people sue.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. After the incompetence I encountered dealing with Henning when he botched the job on my car, I have never asked for or needed anything from him since.

I have invested countess hours and energy towards the preservation of the TC because of my passion for these cars. It is my hope that saving the salvages from the crusher will keep more of the good cars on the road. While others brag about "sending another to the crusher" to further limit availability of parts, I go through the proper process of obtaining salvage titles or certificates of dismantlement for my TCs which are beyond repair. Hopefully this thread will result in those interested to engage themselves to investigate to the fullest extent what the benefits and consequences of making the decision to repair or modify their brake systems.

[Bill Reichert]

I think it's time for a cease fire on both sides. Holding a grudge harms the person holding it and those around them. That includes this group. I have had someone snipping at my heels also on 3 forums. Both people need to understand that nothing is gained and all is lost by continuing. Does the Middle East ring a bell? I also have had several people screw up on my turbos. One mistake resulted in a blown head gasket. I calmed down and went back and told him of the mistake and explained that I would not be returning but understood that he didn't know the car. The other didn't know to put sealant on one stud on the intake or exhaust manifold when reinstalling on the head. I had left the car 130 miles away to have him do the job and rented a car to get home and back to pick up the car. When I picked up the car and had steam under the hood after 10 minutes, I was a raving lunatic for 2 hours driving back to St. Louis.

My recent purchase had a bad fuel pressure regulator and the mechanic replaced everything he could think of in chasing a code 13. The Ais was also hanging up. Even the mechanic that has helped me 56 years has stumbled at times. He is stubborn though. When he did a free engine rebuild on a Shelby Charger and didn't like the way it idled, he gave the owner another car and tried to get it right for two years. He even tried to find a Weber carb at a reasonable price to solve the problem.

EVERYBODY MAKES MISTAKES!!!!! There was a good Commander I worked with in the Navy. An enlisted man tried to tell him he was making a mistake. The commander replied that his was "not to question why, but to do or die". After making the mistake and having it broadcast to all the ships in the Gulf of Tonkin, the enlisted man told him why it was wrong. The commander humbly joked that this was only the second mistake he had made in his life. I mumbled loud enough for him to hear that I must be really lucky because in 6 months I had witnessed BOTH of his mistakes. All 30 people there including the commander had a good laugh. He was a good leader because he could accept that he was not above learning from those under his command.

Let's enjoy our cars and accept each other as they are. I now step down from the soapbox. Peace to both of you. I respect you both for your knowledge.

[4 Peaks]

Amen!

[Guest My TC Toy]

Well that was a fine pi**ing match! I just got back from holidays and missed it all. I am surprised so few decided to comment. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that any major change to the vehicle, and certainly removal of the original ABS system would meet this criteria, would nullify the Department of Transportations approval for the vehicle, whether it be in the US or Canada. It seems to me that whatever your "opinion" might be, the legal ramifications would take precedence. You can certainly do anything with a car and not have trouble, but keeping the car legal and insurable is another matter. Certainly the insurance companies and the DOT would have a definite opinion on this matter. Now lets all shake hands and move on, please.

[ghostymosty]

TCToy, someone, or more, may have had a bit of your 3 basic food groups. I think the issue self corrected. It did make me look to see if the post could be deleted by the original poster but no such luck. I put in a vote for both (yes I set it up to let you do that) because of multiple valid points on both sides.