Charging AC. A no go.

[doity]

Tried charging the AC system yesterday. Had 2 cans of freon with new hose. The CRT had been giving the message "Climate Control Low Refrigerant" message off and on for a few months. When I released the valve to begin recharging the system would not take in the freon. My question is this.....will the system accept a charge when that message is showing or should I have cleared all codes first before doing this? I don't remember any problems before and I have done with this twice with this car.

I brought it in to a certified AC tech who will look at it Monday. I am aware that this is probably best left to a professorial but I guess I wanted to know for my own curiosity and if I attempt to do this again in the future.

thanks

doity

[Ronnie]

This would probably be a solution to your problem:

Compressor Kicks Out When Adding Freon - Solution - Reatta Owners Journal

[doity]

Thanks. I should had thought it out before doing it. Sometimes I tend to rush into things thinking nothing will go wrong. Must be a male trait.

[padgett]

Yes, compressor must be running to add freon. Must cycle the battery to clear if past LOW and into VERY LOW.. It will run for 15-20 seconds after clearing before the code will set again unil enough is added.

[doity]

Yes, compressor must be running to add freon. Must cycle the battery to clear if past LOW and into VERY LOW.. It will run for 15-20 seconds after clearing before the code will set again unil enough is added.

Well the shop said that there was a leak in the compressor and that it would need to be replaced. They quoted me about $1100 for the whole job which includes a new compressor (Harrison?), receiver/drier, some kind of tube, freon, and to clear the codes and rest of labor. This includes a year parts/labor warranty. I figured since this is my summer car and I couldn't do it myself to have the work done. Is this a reasonable estimate for the job? The place is reputable (Mac's Radiators in Portland).

[SeanR]

Well the shop said that there was a leak in the compressor and that it would need to be replaced. They quoted me about $1100 for the whole job which includes a new compressor (Harrison?), receiver/drier, some kind of tube, freon, and to clear the codes and rest of labor. This includes a year parts/labor warranty. I figured since this is my summer car and I couldn't do it myself to have the work done. Is this a reasonable estimate for the job? The place is reputable (Mac's Radiators in Portland).

That sounds about right. I'm going through the same DIY with my Fiero. If the system is discharged, you or Mac's should immediately look at the Orifice Tube and see what condition it's in to check if the compressor died from black death. That will help you make an informed decision on what to start replacing. In my case, the R134 retrofit from prior operators didnt add enough lubricant so my compressor burned up. The flow is compressor > condenser > orifice tube > evaporator. So the orifice tube helps protect the evaporator and compressor from getting this black gunk of metal shavings. At minimum, you should replace the accumulator (contains dessicant lasts 7 years max) "thermos shaped thing", and orifice tube (since the system is empty anyway).

Worst case scenario, they should also throw in the condenser since that can clog prior from the gunk first in the flow path. Don't really know till the orifice is inspected first.

You should also confirm they will be replacing the HIGH and LOW pressure switches on the back of the new or reman'd compressor. Mine blew out of the snap ring plug. Or they are too brittle to transplant to the new compressor. They range around 15-29 each. You should also replace the accumulator pressure switch (think Reatta has one too). I also hope the quote includes a thorough flush of the lines.

ACKITS.com Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment.: Auto AC Compressor Failure (Black Death)

[SeanR]

BTW, what kind of freon cans were you trying to add to the system? I hope you weren't mixing R12 and R134? Also, R134 capacity is 80-90% LESS than R12 sticker amount. You also have to suck in proper oil. The pressure switch will have to be tuned to adjust for the lower R134 pressure or it will kick off early and/or also cause that low freon warning.

[doity]

Sean, they might have quoted me for the condenser also, not sure. It was early in the morning when I talked with them. I most just heard the $$$$$. Anyway, he said some part would also need to be replaced as it would be exposed to air for a certain time frame and would render it bad after that. Not sure if that was the drier/receiver. I was using R12 to refill. No, I know better than to add anything else but freon to the system. BTW, the guy at the counter quoted me about 2 grand to convert the Reatta over to the new stuff. And then made a comment that people who did were not happy as the old stuff blows colder. For the money I am paying I hope it blows cold for quite awhile

[padgett]

Considering what they have to do anyway, if anything R134 should be less expensive, not more, the latest 134 oils can handle a bit of the old for over a grand there should be a flush included.

Currently, only the Judge still has R12 and 134 has no problem cooling in a central Florida summer (of course my cars are garaged and I always seek shade).

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Just to prevent possible confusion going forward, there are no pressure switches mounted on the Reatta's compressor. The switch is mounted into the return line from the evaporator to the accumulator drier and is mounted onto a Schrader valve so it can be replaced without requiring evacuating the system. No need to replace it unless it is not working.

It would be wiser to worry about the temp sensors particularly the low temp sensor since they can only be replaced while system is evacuated. They are not available new anymore, so good used ones need to be found. The testing procedure via diagnostics is documented on Ronnie's site.

There are no R134a specific parts available for the Reatta at this time. It would be nice if a new style high efficiency condenser were available, but like most other things, I doubt there would be any effort for a commercial vendor to market one to us. I expect one of our junkers may come up with one by looking at later model R134a cars and finding one that would fit on our cars and can be converted to hook up to our system. That would go far in improving the efficiency of our system with R134a as the less efficient condenser is the main reason a R-12 system is less efficient when switched over to R134a.

The high efficiency condensers are not able to be flushed properly and would be better to replace if black death is experienced. But, since our condensers are just pipes with cooling fins attached, they can be flushed effectively, so there is no need to replace it unless damaged.

If we ever get the capability of reprogramming the BCM, tweaking the low side temp that causes the compressor to cycle off, and the temp it cycles back on, could also increase the cooling capability of the system. Also reprogramming the fans to bring the high speed fan mode on when the AC is on helps a lot. This can be done via reprogramming the ECM, or by wiring modifications. This improves the cooling efficiency of the condenser when driving under 50 mph or so.

A harder item to flush is the manifold and flex hoses coming off the compressor. There is a strainer/filter built into the muffler that keeps the bigger particles of gunk coming out of the compressor from getting to the condenser. This has to be back flushed well to remove all the contaminates if black death has taken place. New replacements of this assembly are available.

The other hard part to flush is the evaporator as it is too difficult to remove from the car, and since the inlet and outlet pipes are above the coil, gravity fights the attempt to flush it.

You can opt for a variable orifice tube vice the standard fixed size that is OEM. There are about as many people that swear by them as people that swear at them to show a clear preference. In theory, they should improve cooling when engine speed is below 1500 RPMs or so. This would be the case in around town stop and go driving so if that is what you encounter mostly, it is worth looking into. At speed, there is no advantage to a variable one over a fixed one to justify the higher cost.. Also, not aware of any car that comes with one installed stock. You pay your money and take your chances.

[Machiner 55]

The pics included in this post will show why I always recommend changing out the condenser in our older cars when changing over to 134a and or replacing the compressor especially if a "Black Death" event preceded the change. One reason is, why risk messing up a new $250.00 compressor due to stuff that may or may not still be lurking in the coils. The other reason? These pics show a condenser pulled from my '89. After charging the system (including UV dye) I still couldn't maintain pressure in the system and try as I might, I couldn't find the leak. I'd convinced myself that it couldn't possibly be the condenser but, it was the only thing I hadn't looked at. When I did. I was amazed. Even more so after I pulled it and took the photos. Under the UV light you can see the leaks along the vertical piping running along the side of the condenser. With 20 plus years of God knows what being thrown up at the condenser (the first thing that gets hit) it's a wonder they don't fail more often.

So... if your going to replace all those other parts, spend over a grand and you want a worry/trouble free system, spend the extra 80 - 100 some odd bux and change out the condenser. You and your technician will be glad you did. With the radiator and condenser out of the way, the compressor is easily accessed as well as the muffler and associated hoses. If it were me, I'd replace everything except for the evaporator and the high and low pressure lines that run along the firewall and the left side of the engine compartment.

http://forums.aaca.org/attachments/f116/174332d1359166190t-r12-r34a-components.jpg

Edited May 1, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

AC condensers, compressors and most other AC parts you will need for your Reatta can be found in The Reatta Store at reasonable prices. Most include free shipping to your door.

AC Compressors & Parts for Buick Reatta

[Machiner 55]

As far as condensers go, Ron's site got 'em beat. Beats AZ's price by almost ten bux, delivered to your door. Wow!

John F.