R-12 verses Freeze 12

[Robert G. Smits]

My 81 Mercedes is low on Freon and I used my last can of F-12 a year ago. My local mechanic suggests using Freeze 12. Any thoughts on the use of Freeze 12 verses converting to R-134 would be appreciated. I have been told that R 134 under performs in foreign automobiles. Thanks, Bob Smits #2426

[ted sweet]

BEEN Using freeze 12 in my 73 dodge dart for 10 yrs, no problems

[Guest bkazmer]

the refrigerant has no idea of the nationality of the system it's in. R134 will underperform in a system designed to run on Freon 12 because it's not as thermodynamically efficient. Later systems designed for it can compensate to some degree with different pressures.

[MikeC5]

There is an EPA site somewhere that has a table showing various R-12 substitutes and what they are composed of. Sorry I don't have the link handy but iirc, Freeze 12 is 80% R-134a and 20% R-22 (?) I'm not 100% sure what the 20% component was.

[Guest pfloro]

As stated above, Freeze 12 is 80% R134a. The other 20% is R142b. The R142b is able to carry the mineral oil which R12 uses. R134a can't carry mineral oil. This is why ester or PAG oil is needed with straight R134a... Ester & PAG oil is incompatible with mineral oil.

My research (not experience) has revealed that cooling performance using R134a (in a system designed for R12) is quite variable based on the system. If the R12 system has a condenser (and airflow over it) which was 'over engineered' for R12, then R134a provides good cooling performance. Poor cooling performance generally occurs at idle when airflow over the condenser is less and compressor o/p is lower. More condensing capacity/efficiency is needed to change the state of R134a from a vapor back to a liquid.

The R134a molecule is smaller than the R12 molecule. R134a can leak through 'non-barrier' type hoses which were used for R12. Does this really happen? I don't know from experience.

I would strive to find virgin R12 & I believe it's still available from old inventory.

My ace mechanic gave up on retrofitting R12 systems with straight R134a for this and other reasons. I don't know how Freeze 12 (again 80% R134a) holds up... His advice: 'If the system was designed for R12, stay with R12'.

Hope this information is helpful.

Paul

[MikeC5]

Agreed Paul. R-12 is not too difficult to come by on fleabay either. I've paid around $20 - $25 a pound (not including shipping).

[Robert G. Smits]

Thanks to all. I was quoted $100/pound here in College Station. I will take the time to search for R-12. Bob Smits #2426

[Dave@Moon]

Agreed Paul. R-12 is not too difficult to come by on fleabay either. I've paid around $20 - $25 a pound (not including shipping).

If it's real R-12, you'll need to comply with federal law. This ( Dupont IG Lo Freon Refrigerant R 12 Lot of 2 Cans 12 Oz | eBay ) is the first listing for real R-12 I found just now on eBay. Note:

Per eBay regulations to all bidders: A copy of your EPA "609 Certificate" or a signed statement of resale will be required at payment (signature must be hand written). You need to be EPA Certified to purchase Freon, or, if you intend to resell the Freon to an EPA certified technician for installation, please either, email a copy of your "609 Certificate" , or, print out the statement below, fill in the blanks, scan the document and email it through eBay message system or through PayPal at checkout.

It does sell for a lot less than it used to. Given the restrictions needed to buy the stuff and lowering demand with the cars that use it aging, that's not surprising.

[Robert G. Smits]

Art the listings for "Refrigerant 12" the real thing? Thanks, Bob Smits #2426