Lead fuel additive

[Guest heftylefty]

Buick V8 engines '53 to '66 (264, 322, 364, 401, 425 nailheads) are NOT candidates for valve seat hardening. The water jacket for those engines are too close to the valve seats for further grinding.

I agree with earlier posts recommending Marvel Mystery Oil fuel additive for valve lubrication.

A high octane fuel of 91 (or higher) along with well set timing will cure detonation issues.

I didn't know that. I knew that some Bugattis could not be done that way because of tooling issues, but the old nailhead...I wonder if they will make new heads for them now that they seem to be popular with the Bettie Page-image rod set. What are those guys called-not rat rodders, people who build 50s style rods? Anyways, run a few tanks of fuel with some avgas in there and after that unleaded is fine.

[bhambulldog]

I didn't know that. I knew that some Bugattis could not be done that way because of tooling issues, but the old nailhead...I wonder if they will make new heads for them now that they seem to be popular with the Bettie Page-image rod set. What are those guys called-not rat rodders, people who build 50s style rods? Anyways, run a few tanks of fuel with some avgas in there and after that unleaded is fine.

The nailhead is very popular with hot rodders. Due to the relative narrowness compared to other V8s.

The later Buick V8s (1967-1978) do have aftermarket heads available (including aluminium)

Maybe these manufacturers will make an after market head for the nailhead.

It is my experience that lead is not necessary, if some other top cylinder lubricant is available (Lucas or Marvel Mystery Oil added to the fuel).

I agree that AvGas with lead would be advantageous. AvGas is not readily available to everyone (me).

I have good results with 91-93 octane 10%ethanol with marvel mystery oil.

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[Guest heftylefty]

The nailhead is very popular with hot rodders. Due to the relative narrowness compared to other V8s.

The later Buick V8s (1967-1978) do have aftermarket heads available (including aluminium)

Maybe these manufacturers will make an after market head for the nailhead.

It is my experience that lead is not necessary, if some other top cylinder lubricant is available (Lucas or Marvel Mystery Oil added to the fuel).

I agree that AvGas with lead would be advantageous. AvGas is not readily available to everyone (me).

I have only had one airport that absolutely would not sell me avgas without an airplane to put it in. That was in Emporia, Kansas. Everywhere else a clean five gallon jerry can was happily filled by the line boys or I was directed to walk over to a self serve credit card pump. if they ask what it's for tell them race car, boat, spark engine model airplane, gyrocopter, anything at all, just not a road driven car.

Some marinas sell it ostensibly for airboats, as well.

[bhambulldog]

I have only had one airport that absolutely would not sell me avgas without an airplane to put it in. That was in Emporia, Kansas. Everywhere else a clean five gallon jerry can was happily filled by the line boys or I was directed to walk over to a self serve credit card pump. if they ask what it's for tell them race car, boat, spark engine model airplane, gyrocopter, anything at all, just not a road driven car.

Some marinas sell it ostensibly for airboats, as well.

The large airport near me is very secure. Perhaps owing to the fact that, The small aircraft side of the airport is shared with the US Army NG and the US AirForce Ng

There are are two smaller airports near me. Perhaps I could try them

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Edited April 23, 2013 by bhambulldog (see edit history)

[Guest heftylefty]

The large airport near me is very secure. Perhaps owing to the fact that, The small aircraft side of the airport is shared with the US Army NG and the US AirForce Ng

I'd just call the FBO and explain your situation. Usually they want to sell fuel and will work with you. The jerks in Emporia were a city owned facility and had no incentive to sell anything, in fact they would have been happy if everyone except their one corporate customer they politically pandered to went away. I know aircraft owners who base in Wichita or Olathe because the Emporia crew are how they are.

[Dave@Moon]

I don't know if it's legal or not but the Fuel Police haven't been over to bother me and probably never will.

It's illegal as hell, and there are fat fines being risked by both you and (especially) the retail outlet for virtually no reason. There is pitifully little tel lead in avgas these days anyway, and it does nothing that any sodium-based substitute doesn't do legally, more safely, much more economically, and probably better (due to the very low lead concentration in avgas).

[Guest heftylefty]

It's illegal as hell, and there are fat fines being risked by both you and (especially) the retail outlet for virtually no reason. There is pitifully little tel lead in avgas these days anyway, and it does nothing that any sodium-based substitute doesn't do legally, more safely, much more economically, and probably better (due to the very low lead concentration in avgas).

100LL avgas is "low lead" only in comparison to automotive leaded fuels as they were offered before the EPA put the kibosh on leaded auto fuels. In fact, the substantially HIGHER level of lead in 100LL (Blue) as opposed to 80/87 octane fuel (Red) has caused operational problems in low compression aircraft engines such as the pre-O-200 Continentals (the A65 and A75) and in several vintage radial and inline engines. That was what caused the auto gas STC to be issued on these engines. Before that it was a matter of received religion you could not operate an aircraft engine on auto gas or the earth would smite you. I'm not kidding. Farmers did it for decades, but all the old training manuals and official doctrine was that it was inherently unsafe and impossible. It WAS illegal until the STC was issued for certain aircraft. If you are a movie buff, watch "The Misfits" (Gable and MM double swan song, black and white) where Eli Wallach bemoans the hard starting of his engine on "lousy car gas". Actually cold engines started easier on car gas because it vaporized better.

You have to understand what avgas is. It is an inherently low octane, low RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure) base stock that depends on having a LOT of TEL for octane improvement. This was necessary when B-17s and B-29s and Connies flew at FL 350 but most light airplanes have no oxygen systems and fly under ten thousand feet all the time. The only difference between all the different grades of avgas is the amount of TEL and the dye used to indicate what it is. There were five grades at one time, red, brown, green, something else and purple, going from 80/87 to 115/145 tested aviation octane rating. Aviation octane ratings are established differently than automotive and 100LL is actually about 92 to 94 octane by the (R+M)/2 automotive index.

It is NOT illegal for them to sell avgas unless they know or have reason to think it will be burned in a road going vehicle, and even then only because of road tax. If you are using it as an additive I doubt the state cares too much and even if they do they have to see you putting it in to do anything. My neighbors put red dyed diesel in their Mercedes and drive it on the road and the state doesn't bother them, the chances they will bother me for putting ten percent avgas in a bike or straight avgas in a lawn tractor are less than zero.

[Dave@Moon]

It is NOT illegal for them to sell avgas unless they know or have reason to think it will be burned in a road going vehicle, and even then only because of road tax.

NOT CORRECT!

I am not a lawyer, so no one should interpret this as legal advice. Section 80.22(a) of the Clean Air Act Amendments specifically states that "gasoline retailers and wholesale purchaser-consumers are prohibited for introducing or causing or allowing the introduction of leaded gasoline into motor vehicles requiring unleaded gasoline only." (All motor vehicles used on public roads are legally in that category today.) That quote is from EPA's legal memorandum regarding civil penalties for the illegal use of leaded fuels ( Civil Penalty Policy for Administrative Hearings ). In order to avoid the same legal penalties (up to $250,000 for the first offense in small "Class 1" retailers in small quantities) that the purchaser is subject to for doing this, it is incumbent on the retailer to institute it's own reasonable controls to avoid "allowing" this activity.

(Many airports will require buyers to input a tail number as their control, forcing the fraudulent user to invent one which may be criminal on several counts as well (especially since 9/11). Should it become an issue that too many buyers are listed as having all zeros or some such nonexistent number, I can assure you the establishment will have a very hard time in an environmental hearing.)

This has nothing to do with road tax, which in my opinion would be a smaller but likely second exposure to liability.

It is my opinion as a former state environmental enforcement officer that what you are doing and recommending is a violation of Federal law. Proceed at your own risk. Others should follow at their own risk.

Also this and other web sites should expose/promote this activity at their own risk.

And all of this is just to avoid using lead substitute and (possibly) octane booster?:confused:

Edited April 23, 2013 by Dave@Moon (see edit history)

[ted sweet]

most lead subites are labeled for off road use only

[Dave@Moon]

most lead subites are labeled for off road use only

Also not true. After 1/1/1996 the ones still available that contained lead instead of sodium or other compounds legally had to carry that admonishment. The VAST majority of those still available do not contain lead in any form, and are therefore perfectly legal on-road.

[Guest heftylefty]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]189790[/ATTACH]NOT CORRECT![ATTACH=CONFIG]189790[/ATTACH]

I am not a lawyer, so no one should interpret this as legal advice. Section 80.22(a) of the Clean Air Act Amendments specifically states that "gasoline retailers and wholesale purchaser-consumers are prohibited for introducing or causing or allowing the introduction of leaded gasoline into motor vehicles requiring unleaded gasoline only." (All motor vehicles used on public roads are legally in that category today.) That quote is from EPA's legal memorandum regarding civil penalties for the illegal use of leaded fuels ( Civil Penalty Policy for Administrative Hearings ). In order to avoid the same legal penalties (up to $250,000 for the first offense in small "Class 1" retailers in small quantities) that the purchaser is subject to for doing this, it is incumbent on the retailer to institute it's own reasonable controls to avoid "allowing" this activity.

(Many airports will require buyers to input a tail number as their control, forcing the fraudulent user to invent one which may be criminal on several counts as well (especially since 9/11). Should it become an issue that too many buyers are listed as having all zeros or some such nonexistent number, I can assure you the establishment will have a very hard time in an environmental hearing.)

This has nothing to do with road tax, which in my opinion would be a smaller but likely second exposure to liability.

It is my opinion as a former state environmental enforcement officer that what you are doing and recommending is a violation of Federal law. Proceed at your own risk. Others should follow at their own risk.

Also this and other web sites should expose/promote this activity at their own risk. [ATTACH=CONFIG]189790[/ATTACH]

And all of this is just to avoid using lead substitute and (possibly) octane booster?:confused:

In part you are reiterating what I said. Airports will not and should not put avgas in a motor vehicle's propulsion fuel tank. That's entirely different from filling a jerry can or a pickup's bed mounted equipment filling tank that is not plumbed into the fuel system and is for fueling equipment, such as....airplanes!

I have never been asked for a N number. If I were I would use the one on the Bensen Gyrocopter sitting in pieces in my shed of which I am the FAA registered owner. Since when it was airworthy it was a NORDO aircraft it was never operated out of controlled fields and was operated off the farm strip.

A car made before 1975 and some thereafter was not a motor vehicle "requiring unleaded gasoline only". The law you cite is for people putting leaded gas into cars designated "for unleaded fuel only", i.e., those with catalysts.

I am not telling anyone what to do. That said, I have to admit I love the smell of an old car or bike running on avgas, although running straight avgas is financially and mechanically not a good idea most of the time. Then again, I love the smell of a vintage racing bike or road racing car on methanol (with a dash of nitrobenzine like the W196 Mercedes racers!) with castor oil in the crankcase too. Neither is good for you in excess.

[Jim Bollman]

I am not telling anyone what to do. That said, I have to admit I love the smell of an old car or bike running on avgas, although running straight avgas is financially and mechanically not a good idea most of the time. Then again, I love the smell of a vintage racing bike or road racing car on methanol (with a dash of nitrobenzine like the W196 Mercedes racers!) with castor oil in the crankcase too. Neither is good for you in excess.

I run 100LL AvGas in my old tractors, chain saws, generator, lawn mowers and I run my old cars down to almost empty and dump in a couple of gallons and drive a few miles before I put them away for the Winter. All start and run better than the 10% stuff. We luckily have a few stations in our area that sell Ethanol free high test that I run in my old cars the majority of the time at about a 10% premium over regular with Ethanol.

HeftyLefty you imply I may be causing problems to my engines that I run 100% AvGas in. Could you expand on that. I have done it for several years now and other than the exhaust smelling better I have not notice any problems.

[Guest heftylefty]

I run 100LL AvGas in my old tractors, chain saws, generator, lawn mowers and I run my old cars down to almost empty and dump in a couple of gallons and drive a few miles before I put them away for the Winter. All start and run better than the 10% stuff. We luckily have a few stations in our area that sell Ethanol free high test that I run in my old cars the majority of the time at about a 10% premium over regular with Ethanol.

HeftyLefty you imply I may be causing problems to my engines that I run 100% AvGas in. Could you expand on that. I have done it for several years now and other than the exhaust smelling better I have not notice any problems.

Plug fouling would be the main concern. This happens when engines are run on the stuff at low loads for extended periods of time particularly on liquid cooled lower compression engines. This is unlikely to cause permanent engine damage unless the plug deposits get red hot and cause glow-plugging but usually the engine runs so bad before that the plugs get changed.

If you aren't fouling plugs you need not worry.

If you are there is an additive called tricresyl phosphate that helps to prevent it. It must be used very conservatively.

Also, if you are running carbureted or open loop fuel injected engines at high sustained power (i.e., tuning race cars) keep in mind that aviation gas has a stochiometric power point that is 1) constant and 2) different, slightly, than most pump automotive gasolines. What that means is if you are tuning race cars by adjusting jets, pills, etc., if you have it set up "just right" on pump gas and then switch to avgas you could be in trouble. Avgas burns hot because it's a lower fraction base stock and has a lot of TEL. This doesn't matter for normal use in a road vehicle or small engine, just a note for racers. I didn't want someone saying they burnt a valve or holed a piston because they listened to me.

[Dave@Moon]

The law you cite is for people putting leaded gas into cars designated "for unleaded fuel only", i.e., those with catalysts.

No. That situation existed before the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990. Due to that law, after 1/1/1996 ALL road going vehicles fell under the ban.

[Jim Bollman]

Thanks HeftyLefty for what to look for. The old tractors I add a little Marvel Mystery oil every other tank full, just for the magic it does. Of course the 2cycle application have oil added also so this may change things a little to but I will continue my approach. Before I switched to AvGas in all my small engines and tractors I had to run something like Sea Foam through them every spring to get the gunk out so they would run smooth, no need anymore. I did drop to a slightly cooler plug in the 8N Ford tractor from looking at the plugs after the first year on AvGas, sounds like it may have been the wrong direction but I was running a hotter plug than standard in it when I checked. I use he 8N year around and it starts on 6 volts at below freezing temperatures when it almost doesn't turn over since switching. Use to have to jump it with 12volts in real cold weather.

[ted sweet]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-60202