electronic ignition vs points

[Guest]

64 skylark 300 4 barrel<BR>I'm considering moving to an electronic igniton(lobe sensor ignitor),and would like to hear from some who use it. I have no problem with my present points system, but I'd like to know if the change lives up to the marketing claims.

[YellowLark]

I have a '66 340-4. Changed over to Pertronix Ignitor two years ago. Best $80 investment you can make for your car. I understand that a new version is even easier to install. Buy it!!! <P>------------------<BR>

[Guest]

I have a 64' 300-4 and I replaced the points for a Unilite Mallory and it works fantastic and I also replaced the original carb. for a Holley. Might consider downsizing the primary jets though!!!

[rocketraider]

The one drawback to the lobe sensor Pertronix Ignitor is that it requires a "wait to start". You'll have to switch on the ignition and wait a few seconds before spinning it over. Otherwise it "takes a lotta zoo-ing" as my parents' neighbor says. I have a lobe sensor type in a 74 Olds 350. I turn the key to "on", count five, and start the engine. A friend has a 64 Pontiac 389 with the air gap type Ignitor which doesn't require the wait to start, but I think is a little sensitive to its air gap dimension.

[rocketraider]

Baah- forgot the important stuff. After putting the Ignitor in the 74 Hurst/Olds, was able to bump up initial timing by 4 degrees and gas milage increased from 12 mpg on 93 octane to almost 16 on 87. Worth it for that. Noticed a little more butt feel too.

[Guest]

I have been driving old cars for eight years and I have never once replaced or adjusted breaker points. That's because they are the first thing I chuck when I buy an old car. I didn't notice much of a difference with the HEI systems that I have installed, but it is the most trouble free upgrade you will ever make. Its basically free horsepower.

[YellowLark]

I had a good experience with the Petronix, although I had the old version that required messing with the distributor to install it.<P>Certainly was a great value, as it seemed to improve starting and ran very smoothly.<P>Have since installed a complete MSD system (6A box, distributor, coil, wires) and love it. But, that's more bucks than just the Pertronix. With just the Pertronix, the engine can still appear original, which is important to many owners.<P>I think your 300-4 has higher compression than a 1974 Olds 350, so your octane requirement may not change as rocketraider's did.

[Guest]

Where can one get a Pertronix set up?

[Guest]

<A HREF="http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/search/search.d2w/report2?searchphrase=pertronix&smartsearch=on&ns=Y" TARGET=_blank>http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/search/search.d2w/report2?searchphrase=pertronix&smartsearch=on&ns=Y</A> <P>I found two different Pertronix ignitor systems at the Jegs site.

[JUSTIN]

excuse my ignorance, but there are too many choices. What exactly do I need for a 65 401 riv?

[Guest]

Would you say the second version is the best for me (I have a 66 300-2). In addition to the kit, should I pick anything else up?<P>The whole reason for purchasing this is to reduce misfires in the upper rpm range.<P>Anyone have similar difficulty? I have a VERY free flowing exhaust, and I feel like I lost a lot of power due to next-to-no backpressure.<P>Thanks.<P>-e

[The Old Guy]

It is a fact that when you reduce back pressure ,to make the engine perform,you shuold go up 2-3 jet sizes. Then you car will really come alive.

[Guest]

I am an idiot when it comes to carbs... I should get bigger jets for my two barrel?<P>How big of a deal are they to get, and how do I install?

[Guest]

the guy at my local speed shop said that I ought to locate another carb, check the current jet size with a drill bit, then using the second carb as a tester, gradually drill it out until it feels right.<P>That sound legit to anyone?

[Guest]

Oldskool<BR>I would get the ignitor 1 or 2 kit. But I have had a problem with my distributer misfiring above 4500 RPM. HEI's are notorious for this, so I installed a high performance module and it made no difference. I think I will need to rebuild my distributer to fix the problem as the shaft is slightly worn.

[Guest]

I have both Ignitor (I and II) systems and am using the Ignitor II currently. I also have the correct FlameThrower units for each as well. Everything works like they say and is fairly easy to install with no added 'tune up' sessions afterwards. If you have the option and money, I suggest the II Series as it is better then the Ignitor I units (LSC unit at least). If anyone needs help with installation feel free to ask or email me. Cheers!

[Guest]

This ones for "the old guy". I just had the timing on my 85 LeSabre set to factory specs<BR>at 20 degrees BTDC. Before that, the timing was 15 degrees retarded. Now it misses at idle speed, occasionally stalls when put in gear, and my engine computer tells me I am running rich. These symptoms are occuring no matter what octane fuel I use. I bought 8 new spark plugs and made sure they were all gapped at 0.060"(stock specs). I even put in a new oxygen sensor. Nothing helps! I have a very free flowing exhaust just like Oldskooln and I wounder if that could be to blame. Now my question is, what should I do to tune my engine so it purrs again, and is rejetting my carburetor the best idea even though I am running rich? Please Help!

[Guest]

hmm

[The Old Guy]

20 degrees is a BUNCH .Are you sure it calls for that much initial?? Usually a Buick runs best with about 32-36 degrees total advance at 2500-2800 RPM. It may be you have so much advance that you are not burning the fuel properly. Split the difference between what you had and what you have and see what happens. 8-10 degrees at idle should get you in the ball park.

[ronvb]

85 2 NV,<BR>On that model the engine fuel mixture and timing is controlled by the computer.<BR>It sounds like someone set the timing without disabling computer.Look up specs for your year as 20btdc sounds wrong and follow instructions to set timing by disabling computer or spark advance coupling 1st.<BR>ronvb

[NJVetteGuy]

I swapped out the points in my last GS (a cortez gold '72 350 car) with the Mallory Unilite conversion w/infrared pickup. Never a problem again with ignition, I used a Mallory super stock coil also. My plugs lasted longer and I was able to use 4 degrees more base timing. I recurved the distributor after I swapped over and it made a BIG difference in throttle response. I read above that there is a "wait to start" with the Pertronix, I never had that with the mallory. Just my $.02

[Guest]

Thanks for the help guys!! <BR> New member,<BR> 85 2 NV

[Guest]

Jegs is charging a heck of a lot more than CARS. I paid 69.50 for the ignitor and 29.50 for the hot coil. It made a world of difference in my 70 Stage 1 motor. Try CARS: <A HREF="http://www.oldbuickparts.com" TARGET=_blank>www.oldbuickparts.com</A>

[NTX5467]

Key thing--that '85 LeSabre probably has the Olds 307 (5 Liter) V-8 and not a genuine Buick V-8. <P>I concur that the timing needs to be set to factory specs using the approved factory procedure to set the BASE TIMING so the computer can do the rest.<P>Sounds like a case of "lean misfire" from the newly advanced timing there. Advancing the timing will effectively lean the mixture, which when it gets too lean that the computer can't compensate for, will be too lean to fire (hence, lean misfire) that will probably tell the computer it's too rich from the unburned fuel (even though it was too lean to start with). With the rich code in the computer, it's still trying to lean it further and you see where that's leading.<P>Low backpressure exhaust systems typically don't affect idle issues at all as there typically isn't enough back pressure at low speeds to affect anything anyway. High performanc exhausts on a 2bbl probably help only marginally as the smaller Rochester 2bbls only flow about 250-275cfm, with the larger 1.69 versions hitting closer to 450-500cfm. In many cases, the larger Rochester 2bbls "drove" as well as most of the Q-Jet motors did (but without the "secondary sound"). On the larger ones, it might be beneficial to go up a jet size or so, but nothing serious. Drilling jets is a "no-no" according to Holley, although that was a given practice in the '50s and '60s. You can still buy new jets from GM in many cases. Check out the HP Books book on Rochester carbs as it tells how to retune 2bbls too.<P>Enjoy!<BR>NTX5467

[NTX5467]

Back to the electronic ignition conversion issue . . .<P>Considering that many aftermarket electronic ignition conversion kits (typically capacitive discharge units, if I recall correctly, some which still used the points to make/break the circuit too) were available in the early 1960s and that GM also had a similar AC-Delco system optional on may Chevrolet, Pontiac, and maybe even Oldsmobile motors in the approx. '64-'69 time frame, plus the precursor to the HEI on 1972 Pontiacs, just why did these systems NOT receive universal praise from the high performance contingency back then? Any of y'all remember those things?<P>As things progressed into the early 1970s, there were many name brand electronic conversion kits that seemed to mimick the later 1971+ Chrysler systems PLUS all of the other previous systems. If point ignition systems were really as bad as y'all talk about, those things should have been on every hot rodder's engine--but they weren't.<P>Back then, high performance distributors from Ford, Chrysler, and some earlier GM applications typically had dual points for approx. 40 degrees of dwell and a hotter spark, while GM stayed with their single point distributor at 30 degrees of dwell. One test was with a dual point Corvette distributor and the other one was with the single point Chevy distributor--not the significan difference that would have been suspected all the way to 7000rpm.<P>One key thing here--the distributors were new and in good condition. This was back when the "trick" magnetic suppression wires had just come out and point gaps were still .035" for most everything. Or hard core people still used "wire" wires.<P>If the higher rpm power increases that have been mentioned were happening back then, there would have been articles in every car magazine extolling the benefits of electronic ignition, but such things were not that common. There typically were mixed results in many cases (except in the J. C. Whitney catalog where everything caused a massive power increase).<P>At those earlier points in time, it was common to do tune ups about every 12,000 miles or more. The ignition points (when properly gapped and the rubbing blocks lubed) typically had "metal transfer" or "pitting" issues than anything else. There were some HD point sets with heavier springs for higher rpm capability too. Everyone typically knew how to replace points and the GM setup was dreadfully easy to do with their external adjustments.<P>One thing I remember seeing in a Hayes Ignition brochure mentioned that all electronic systems typically retarded the spark about 1 degree/1000rpm compared to a similar point system. This was due to the switching transistor, it mentioned.<P>Another thing that surfaced with the Chrysler electronic systems was the minimum voltage requirements to even fire the system. The Orange box was notorious for needing a solid 11 volts to work whereas the MSD box only took about 5.5 volts. I've seen instances where the starter would certainly spin fast enough, but the engine would not start without a boost (with the Orange box).<P>The Mallory UniLite conversion kit came out in the early 1970s. The main thrust with it and the other factory electronic ignition systems were maintenance issues rather than higher peak horsepower -- but then Nitrous wasn't used for non-medicinal purposes back then either. But compression ratios certainly were above 11.0 to one in many cases. And hard core drag racers (and some street guys too) used the venerable magneto.<P>With all of that history, it sounds to me like the ones that are trashing the point ignitons could well be using distributors with worn contact lobes and bushings instead of distributors with good guts. I've seen some cases where a weak battery on a point system car will start the car that would not start if it'd had an electronic system of stock configuration.<P>I know from experience that point grease was deleted from many replacement point sets in the 1980s. This would well explain decreased life from the points and such. It seems that if they worked so well for so many years, even at higher rpms, that they could do the same again--if the wear issues are addressed. How many of us drive their vintage vehicles over 10,000 miles/year now anyway?<P>I like electronic ignition as much as anyone (due to the maintenance issues), but I know the point systems were not total "pieces" when they were new and not worn out too. I know there are high performance/high output situations where they are necessary too. But I highly suspect there are many stock applications out there that can still exist just fine with a good point distributor.<P>With respect to the HEI, the higher rpm output dropoff was documented from its earlier times. It was also mentioned that an MSD system with an HEI was the optimum system. Now, there are newer versions of that deal that work well past the 4500rpm dropoff. <P>The HEI was designed to fire a .100" gap plug, but the condition of the wires got critical about the .070" gap range. The larger gaps were necessary on many emission controlled engines too. Naturally, there was mention of the more accurate firing of the electronic ignition systems, but Dr. Jacobs mentioned several years ago that even the factory elecronic systems did not fire every plug each time it was supposed to--but his would. <P>I, too, would feel safer with an HEI conversion instead of an aftermarket conversion due to the parts availability thing out in the boondocks. The larger cap mimized misfire under high output conditions too. Plus, it's production based.<P>I know the Pertronix kits maintain a factory look, but the HEI is probably the best option from what I've seen.<P>Just my thoughts and I respect yours too.<P>Enjoy!<BR>NTX5467

[Charles Johns]

This is an old thread but here is my 2 cents. I am an ASE certified mechanic (retired) and my degree is in electronics (20 years a TV repairman - degree from Elkins Institute). I spent 50 years building Street Rods frame-up to include building my own motors. Points are OLD...but not bad. The spark from electronics is hotter but much shorter than points. That is why MSD or Multiple Spark Discharge was invented to simulate the spark we get from points. By using todays best parts (points, condenser, rotor, cap, wires and plugs) we can improve our old points system. BWD Select is a little more expensive but uses the best available materials in their components. I use ACCEL copper wires (not recommended with electronics) because they have almost zero resistance to the flow of currant. With a tuned points system Hot Rod found points worked as good as HEI up to about 4,000 RPM, then HEI/Points would swap positions as best up to 7,000 RPM. If not racing, points are fine and easy to service every 10,000 miles.