Show Car or Hot Rod?

[Thriller]

Derek, "restore" for cars would be the same as for computer software which might have attracted a problem. The computer uses a "restore point" which is of a particular earlier date, just as to restore a car would be to do similar with condition and other aspects of the vehicle . . . without regard to what the starting point of the "restore" process might be. NOTHING about "making it better than original", just "as good as original" . . . or in the case of the compute software, as good as it was at a particular earlier point in time.

That is reasonable, but "restore" should not mean, say, putting disc brakes on a drum brake car, or putting in a transmission that wasn't available for the year / make / model of car. Unfortunately, some of our local (I can't speak for other locations) automotive writers have taken to using the word restore or restoration to discuss those types of items. I'm not particularly fussy if say stainless steel brake lines are used in place of steel, even though it is an upgrade in material, but it doesn't really impact the originality of the vehicle overall. Of course, when using materials that aren't authentic, it should be judged accordingly, but if a vehicle is used primarily for driving rather than being judged, upgrades are reasonable. Just don't tell me you "restored" the brakes if you completely changed the character of the system.

[SBRMD]

This is a fascinating conversation. There are infinite variations and decisions involved in the car hobby (avoiding the use of the word "restoration", Derek!). And NTX, I always look forward to your posts and their sophisticated understanding of what happens in the automotive world.

But my question still remains, and is not so much concerned with gray areas where people/judges may debate what's "correct", i.e. where correctness may have more than one answer, based on variations in the circumstances of the original builds. I would like to know what people think about obvious inauthentic (but sort of factory) modifications (like Keith's example of Buick road wheels on an Electra that was not originally available that way) and their effect on a car that everyone would unanimously accept as "correct". Make the example two identical number one level '72 Electras, both absolutley virgin, with no miles, and unquestionable provenance since new, but one has been treated to a set of road wheels, and the other has the original hubcaps. Does vehicle one "destroy the authenticity" of vehicle two? And should the owner of vehicle two somehow hurl the claim that what the owner of vehicle one did has actually hurt vehicle two?

Thanks again in advance,

Steve

[JohnD1956]

Nicole and Jason, I found the reference to the custom interiors for the Super. The small 1956 catalogue has two pages with pictures of the model interiors. for the Super it says " Three color combinations of nylon and cordaveen (in addition to three custom interiors) await your choice in the Sedan, four in the Rivieras and four all cordaveen selections in the Convertible."

None of the other model descriptions includes the parenthesis, only the Super.

SDRMD, as to your question, I have to agree with Keith. I remember being surprised to learn you could not get chrome Road Wheels from the factory on a 69 Electra. I've seen so many that way and they looked natural in that application. Had I not sold my Electra, I would have put a set on it as well. However, I always point to my vehicles incorrectness when someone asks me if it is all original.

But I think the major differentiation is the type of judging the vehicles would be undergoing. I doubt that in the BCA 400 point judging a correct vehicle would be harmed by the shiney chrome road wheels on the car next door. Meanwhile in a local show, I fully believe that those same chrome road wheels would make the correct car next door look dull by comparrison and cost the correct car some points.

[SBRMD]

JohnD: You know, on the hypothetical about the local show, you are probably right. Although if such a show were using judges, that would obviously require ignorance on the judge's part. Of course, the local shows that you mention are often popularity contests rather than objective competitions, as other entrants in the show are the judges, typically voting for the car they "like the best", for whatever reason. So maybe the "inauthentic" car, in that scenario, gets the award. But regardless of awards, which are really not the thrust of my question, how does this "destroy the authenticity" of the hubcap car? Is the authentic car any the less authentic because a modified car right next to it looks a little flashier, or better, or people like it more for any reason? Isn't that really addressing a separate point?

Perhaps a modified (say, road-wheeled) car steals thunder from a "frumpier" (say, hubcapped) authentic car. But does it actually "destroy the authenticity"?

[JohnD1956]

Good point. The authentic car is still authentic. Perhaps what is compromised is the human perception of authenticity. And if it is compromised enough times then you have people arguing that modifications are correct. Of course it takes two to argue, and the only time I can see this being a real detriment is when you want to sell a vehicle, or win that trophy. This is why I won't be worried about authenticity when/if I ever redo my 56.

[Guest 54fins]

wow, neat thread. I know of a Skylark Judged by AACA as a senior that probably wouldn't get a Bronze at a BCA! The judging standards can, and will be debated indefinitely and will vary greatly. But that is the beauty of it, so us car geeks can have good conversations in forums. I do think this helps preserve some history.

I did attempt to use all NOS parts on mine. I even saved even the most insignificant washer. I even keep old shards of interiors. Sometimes my wife starts taking everything to the trash, so I have to lock it up.

. To me, a senior would have to use original coatings and virtually all NOS parts. But then there would not be many senior vehicles! you can tell differences in the original hardware and the repops. A true original class would be interesting, but imagine the debates that would set off! Think about it, a really nice time capsule but some paint peeling, a few pits etc- but wow, the real deal. Now does that car beat another time capsule car, but Joe had the chrome redone and the paint redone-plus new fastners and soft components

So then, you go back to BCA judging. As time goes by, there are less NOS parts and coatings so you can see that the judging has evolved and will continue to do so. I built mine to please me so I'm really quite content with how the judging went. Sadly, there are also lot's of scammers out there. I felt the BCA judging offers an independent assesment of the car. You don't have to be in complete agreement with the standards, but I appreciate having a scorecard so that I can also represent my car honestly. I also don't mind pointing out where I did deviate from the standards, and some of the things I actually have changed to comply with the standards. Even if I don't get judged again, things like a not notched fan belt can seem insignificant but then become interesting later.

There was a wide range of cars and conditions at the nationals. If everyone did a senior, I think it could get quite boring. Don't believe I'll make the nationals this year although it is a cool venue. I do recomend that you go if you get a chance and I'll also say that you should try the judging if you are a bit of a car nut (most of us are). Also, don't push yourself to make your car for someone else. My only advise would be to avoid modifications that are not reversable if your car does have some true time capsule elements.

[NTX5467]

The "original class", I believe, would relate to the "Archival Class" in the BCA? With guidelines for how many things might have been repaired/repainted during the life of the vehicle, which is good.

Again, "original" gets to be a point-of-reference situation. Back in the later 1980s, in the Mopar club I'm in, we put in an "Original" class to help reward those who'd taken pains to massage the paint (rather than repaint), clean and rebuild (rather than replace), and such with their cars. My '67 Newport fit into that criteria. I was also on the judging staff.

One member had a '66 Belvedere 2-dr hardtop. He'd brought his kids home from the hospital in it (after they were born) and the car had significance in his family (he was in his later '50s at that time). He entered it in the "Original" class, claiming it was "all original" . . . although it had a muffler shop dual exhaust system for the 2bbl standard V-8. The car was yellow and looked pretty good, until we got to looking at it up close. The car had acrylic enamel on it from the factory, so all of the "spot repairs" he'd had done (in acrylic lacquer) were evident to us. There was not ONE panel on that car that hadn't had some "spot repairs" for the paint. Our cummulative judgment was that too much paint work had been done, plus the exhaust system, to be classed as "original". We advised him of our determination. He was "upset" and initially refused to move his car to the normal B-Both Stock class. He was about 6'2", but his 5'3" wife finally requested that he comply with our request. He did, but didn't like it. He still got an award, but not in the "Original" class. We tried that class for another year or two and deleted it -- it was not fully understood and there were really few vehicles which would qualify . . . "restoration" abounded.

To him, keeping the paint looking good was "keeping it original", but with the many spot repairs over the years, it was getting to where it would have been a piece-meal repaint, spread over about 10 years. Even some places in the engine compartment, too! As he kept the vehicle garaged, the paint matches were still good, generally, but the texture differences between the acrylic enamel (factory) and acrylic lacquer (body shop) were obvious once we started looking closely. A few years later, he'd gotten him a 1940 Ford coupe and did a nice job of "period correct" restoration on it . . . even finding the correct-for-Fort Worth dealer's plate for around the rear license plate. I believe that was the year he and his wife married? First car? Or similar. Never did see the Plymouth much after that.

Just like any other class, there needs to be definite guidelines and definite definitions of what is what, what's allowed, and how much.

As to the question of the Road Wheels vs correct wheel covers . . . those of us in the Buick side of things would know what models the road wheels might have been equipped with (I believe there's also information in the Judging Manual, too?). By "default", the road wheels were considered "sporty" and would have only been available on "sporty" models, of which the Electra would not be one.

In theory, IF there were no other deductions for the road wheel car, it's possible that it could score the same number of points as the wheel cover car if the latter had had a few other deducts. BOTH could possibly receive a Gold level award? BUT, by observation, if the road wheel car's owner took the liberty of adding the incorrect Buick wheels, there are probably a few other indiscretions he also allowed to happen, which would mean other deducts which most probably would make the particular vehicle receive a Silver level award.

The real STICKY thing would be IF the road wheel car's owner purchased it from the original owner who swore the road wheels were on the car when he bought it new from the selling dealership! And it's possible that that COULD happen! How? The purchaser of a Wildcat didn't want those chrome wheels, but liked the wheel covers on the Electra instead, so the dealership swapped them for the Wildcat's buyer. If the tire size might have been different, then they would have swapped the tires on the wheels, to keep the correct tires on the respective vehcile, in the wheel change mix, too. The ONLY places these things would be documented would have been on each vehicle's Sales Folder at the dealership and on the Wildcat's sales invoice where that owner paid for the swap, partially, as part of the deal.

So, you can see the scenario developing as the wheel cover'd car's owner tells the road wheel car's owner that he's got the wrong wheels on his car, etc.. Doesn't matter that the road wheel car's owner recounts the information from his car's original owner who swore those wheels were on the car when he bought it. From there, it can't be a "pretty scene", typically, especially if the road wheel car's owner is a new Buick owner/enthusiast and has not fully researched his car and such.

NOT unlike an article on a '62 Buick 2-dr hardtop which was featured in "The Bugle" in the later 1980s. The accompanying article mentioned that the car's owner didn't like the untrimmed luggage compartment in the LeSabre (I believe), so he had the dealer make "trunk linings" similar to what the Electras had, for his car as a part of the sales deal. The Editor was careful to notate that such was not correct for the car and could result in some deductions in the BCA 400 Point Judging. But if that same car turned up at a BCA National Meet, purchased from the prior owner's estate (without the "history" information), the new owner might well think it was a "factory option" when it was a very well done dealer add-on in order to "make the deal". Seems like there was a copy of the sales invoice which noted the additional cost of the "trunk lining".

In those earlier times, many dealers would swap bolt-in parts from one vehicle to the next, IF that was what it took to get a vehicle sold. Blackwalls for whitewalls, different wheels, cloth seats rather than vinyl, etc.--it all happened at one time or another. As long as the vehicle they ended up with in their inventory was still decently saleable, they'd probably do it, back then. Add-on vinyl roof packages, plus the "cap" twill-covered roof packages, were popular, but not always "correct" or "authentic". And stripe packages . . . another dealer add-on!

Luckily, the BCA has almost all of these things covered in the Judging Manual and elsewhere!

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest gunjeep444]

I am just fixinh up mine the way I wanted. Will never get it judged. Just drive it and have fun.