PreWar Mercedes Benz

[roadster36]

Hello Craig,

this one is in the 1953 book

Hans Liska-Mercedes-drawing-book-1953.jpg

I have the 51,53,55 en 2004 Liska Skizzenbooks

The blue specialroadster is not printed in one of them

Tis book is high on my wanted list.

so maybe its is printed in this book.

Hans Liska: Skizzen, Szenen, Situationen - Mit Mercedes-Benz in aller Welt Gebundene Ausgabe – 28. Februar 2008

I know a collector here in Holland with a lot of bigger paintings from Hans Liska.

I have seen his collection 6 years ago.

so that wood be an other option.

Greetz Jan

Edited August 7, 2015 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[540K]

Tis book is high on my wanted list.

so maybe its is printed in this book.

Hans Liska: Skizzen, Szenen, Situationen - Mit Mercedes-Benz in aller Welt Gebundene Ausgabe – 28. Februar 2008

Greetz Jan

 The book you are looking for is on Amazon.de for 30-40 Euros.

 

Thanks for your help identifying the source of one of the Liska drawings. I have not been able to find the 1953 book for sale yet.

[Davlet]

I'd like to update the forum on some developments since I posted about the replica 320 Cab A long bodies. One of the specialists from RM reached out to me after seeing that post here and I provided him with a synopsis of what to look for on these cars, plus some additional pretty conclusive documentation. The result was that the 320 in the upcoming RM Pebble Beach auction has been withdrawn. As I said earlier, the blue one at Amelia, sold at Bonhams by Arthur Bechtel last year I'm convinced is a replica. Have a look at http://arthur-bechtel.com/en/classic-cars/current-vehicles/.

The 290 Roadster they admit was built from scratch. However, the 290 Cab A long, and 3 320 Cab A long are also replicas. The dark blue one I believe is the one at Amelia Island, although I suppose it could be another in the same colors.

 

So I notice with interest this so called "320N Cab A" at the upcoming Bonhams Frederiksen auction. Firstly it's misidentified as a Cab A when it's really configured as a Combination Coupe. SInce the Combi Coupe is extremely rare, last I knew only three existing, mine, the museum car, and a third car from Lithuania I believe, I'm surprised that, if the auction car is real, why it wouldn't be identified as a combination coupe. 

 

I met the owner of the Lithuania car in my shop some years ago. His car did not have a hardtop and we discussed copying mine for his car. I have a few pictures of this car and I believe it was real, since it was too rough to be fake.  But it was intact enough to see that it was a real car, not just a pile of parts. I did hear that possibly a copy or copies of this car were being made. Interesting that it says this car was restored in Lithuania.

 

I really haven't studied the pictures of the auction car enough to say anything conclusively, but I do notice that the door windows appear to be the wrong shape giving a heavier look to the hard top.

 

I might know who you talk too.

Not everything I can Say publicly

 

But can say too many,

Too many replicas And cars in the world with double or triple numbers of chassis and bodes

[roadster36]

Yesterday i bougt this model 540 K cab B for my collection.

only 299 pieces

http://glmmodels.com/ProductShow-94.html

Edited August 12, 2015 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[540K]

 The book you are looking for is on Amazon.de for 30-40 Euros.

 

Thanks for your help identifying the source of one of the Liska drawings. I have not been able to find the 1953 book for sale yet.

 The book is now on ebay. http://www.ebay.de/itm/Vieweg-Hans-Liska-Skizzen-Szenen-Situationen-MIt-Mercedes-Benz-in-aller-Welt-/141743517174?hash=item2100926df6

 

This was directed to Jan "Roadster36"

Edited August 12, 2015 by 540K (see edit history)

[Davlet]

Hello 

Is anyone going to Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance at 10:30 a.m. on Sunday, August 16 ???
Anyone know the list ofthe cars wich will be ther?

Last year they had a list on website.

Did not found cars this year.

Thansks

Dav

[Davlet]

320 One more cab A for sale Found on line

 

[Henry Magno]

This is the RM auction car that was withdrawn. Where is it online?

[Henry Magno]

I see it's on Hemmings and being sold at Mohr Imports. No admission that it is  a replica body.

[Davlet]

http://www.mohrimports.com/view_inventory_details.php?car_id=767

.Have not ever seen that kind a bad photos. 

[540K]

Hello Craig,

this one is in the 1953 book

Hans Liska-Mercedes-drawing-book-1953.jpg

Greetz Jan

 

Jan,

I cannot find the 1953 book for sale anywhere. Could you possibly email me a high resolution scan of this one page? Even if the page will not fit on the scanner, two scans I can put together with Photoshop. Thank you.

Craig

[roadster36]

Craig,

Sorry i was on vacation for a few days.

i send you a private message with my email adres.

I made the scans already in jpeg,tif and pdf.

Jan

Edited August 25, 2015 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[540K]

The cream colored 500K Spezial-Roadster that was in the Kemp Museum in St Louis, rebodied by Prahl, is for sale in St Louis now. That will make four rebodied roadsters this year:

 

Artcurial by Prahl - unsold, alleged high bid of $1.9M

Auctions America by Nawrocki - sold $1.87M

Bonham's Fredericksen by Prahl - coming up in September

The "Kemp" car by Prahl - advertised for private sale, asking $1.996M

Edited August 27, 2015 by 540K (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Wheels look good.  I of course like your tire selection.   Remind me again how much those go for?

[540K]

Wheels look good.  I of course like your tire selection.   Remind me again how much those go for?

Yes, no ww for me either! I had a deal with the wheel maker for a discount if I ordered two sets at once. I don't know what the price would be now, but I could check and see if they would still honor it if you're ready to order. Maybe somewhere in the neighborhood of $1750 each. They can prep for powder, paint or plating, or do any of that for you at a reasonable price. But then you're risking damage in shipping. I had mine powder-coated in Portland.

 

A couple of years ago I tried to buy the set of 6 original wheels  that are still for sale, but the guy was asking about $40 grand. He has come down to about $35 grand, but that's still almost 4X my cost. Yes, his are allegedly original wheels, but I don't have to worry about rust, out-of-round wheels or difficulties in restoring them. I laugh every time I see his ad, but maybe he'll have the last laugh.

 

By the way, I'm learning that plating companies are going out of business due to the ever-increasing regulations. If any of you have procrastinated on plating, you might consider doing it while it's still relatively convenient and affordable. A shop in Portland recently closed after the better part of 100 years, I'm told. Now Jim is taking his stuff all the way to Seattle.

[alsancle]

That is not a bad price.  I think my plan of having a painted set and a chrome set will need to pass as I have other issues to deal with.  The problem with the original set of wheels is that I know of at least one set on a 540k (original) where you could not take the car over 30mph because the wheels had gone out of round.  I have never hear of that before but it was an issue with this particular car which now has a new set of wheels on it.

[540K]

That is not a bad price.  I think my plan of having a painted set and a chrome set will need to pass as I have other issues to deal with.  The problem with the original set of wheels is that I know of at least one set on a 540k (original) where you could not take the car over 30mph because the wheels had gone out of round.  I have never hear of that before but it was an issue with this particular car which now has a new set of wheels on it.

Two sets is a really good idea for anyone struggling with the question of which looks better. I think the body color wheels really set off the chrome balancing weights, and with bw tires give the car a more masculine look. The chrome wires are definitely good looking too though. I'm hoping the powder coating holds up better than plating, and easier to touch up. I had chrome wires on my E-Type and they were a pain in the butt.

[Davlet]

Not sure If I did share this wheel but I know the person who make them. If needed please let me know will help with write contact

[alsancle]

I was thinking about painting the weight covers black.  The chrome will hold up forever unless you are driving in the winter .

[540K]

Henry - read nice comments about you in the current edition of The Star magazine.

[Davlet]

Any links? Can we read too?

[alsancle]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221882732424

 

Genuine 500K Chassis restored and rebodied by Franz Prahl! Now sporting the highest quality Special Roadster coachwork! Absolutely stunning in every way with Concours provenance! A must see for both Mercedes-Benz and classic car collectors!

In the eyes of many, the Mercedes-Benz 500/540K embodies the true forward-thinking prowess of pre-war Germany! A successor to the almost instantly famous S/SS/SSK/SSKL models of the late 20s, the 500K (internal codename W29) bowed its head in 1934 in both chassis-only and one of thirteen different factory bespoke bodystyles. Assembled in Sindelfingen, the factory Mercedes cars were built on one of two wheelbases with three configurations. Featuring a 5.0L Inline 8 with a Roots supercharger and standard four speed manual (five speed optional!), the 500K was a truly ferocious car. The chassis consisted of a fully independent double wishbone front end and double-joint swing axle in the back, allowing a sporting but very comfortable ride! Aesthetically perfect, decades ahead mechanically and ultra rare, the 500K represents one of the finest motorcars to ever come out of Germany!

We couldn’t be more excited to offer this 1935 Mercedes-Benz 500K Special Roadster! The car comes finished in a beautiful and period shade of Ivory White over sumptuous Tan leather interior with matching Tan soft top! Under the hood is the original 500K 5.0L Inline 8 (dated March 5th, 1935) and supercharger that are mated to a standard four-speed manual transmission. The car has exquisite details and many standard features that include rear rumble-seat, auxiliary soft top, fully enclosed rear-mount spare tire, fully backlit gauges, dual cowl vents, front fog light, safety glass, vacuum-assist hydraulic brakes and 12V charging to power the power locks, windshield wipers and side indicators! The car rides on chromed wire wheels with Ivory Mercedes-Benz knock-offs wrapped in Dunlop Fort 7.00-17 blackwall tires!

The previous owner of the car, Mr. Fred Kemp, found this example in 1993. Having already owned a 540K, he had spent 30 years looking for a 500K Special Roadster, which he considered to be one of, if not the prettiest, Mercedes-Benz in their history. After some researching and scouring of enthusiast communities, he was pointed to the Carrosserie Kong restoration shop in Basel, Switzerland, where they had started on the restoration of a 500K Cabriolet B. Chassis number 123686 was delivered new to a Mr. Brenninkmeyer of England in 1935 as a black right-hand-drive model. Its whereabouts are scattered until 1974, when Bud Cohn helps Kalle Karlström of Los Angeles purchase the car. It was returned to Europe when Kalle sold the car to Peter Haverton of Sweden. Not long after, the car was sold to another Swede, who placed it in the Drottningholm Collection, where the restoration first began at Rohdins Automobilservice in Trollhättan. Fast forward to 1992, the car had disappeared to Germany and started a restoration at Kong. The new owner, a Dr. Harald Alfers, had disassembled the car and was just starting to put it back together when Mr. Kemp found him. After admitting that he was searching for an authentic chassis, negotiations started. They would continue until 1995 when Mr. Kemp was finally able to secure the unfinished project for himself, while also establishing a relationship with a new carrosseie to finish the custom Special Roadster body. Franz Prahl Klassische Automobile GmbH & Co. KG was responsible for the completion of engine, chassis, body and interior and documented this process in great detail and with many pictures. The final receipt of purchase was dated January 13th, 1999 and the car was to be finished before the beginning of the new millennium but as with many projects of this magnitude, there were delays in the completion of certain tasks. The car was finally finished in June of 2000, where it was test driven and any post-restoration bugs were worked out. It was appraised at 2,000,000 deutsche marks before Mr. Kemp briefly toured Germany in it and then sent it stateside. It cleared customs on September 1st and arrived in St. Louis two weeks later.

Since restoration, it has been proudly displayed at many prominent shows and concours events that include but are not limited to: 2001 Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance, 2008 Amelia Island Concours d’Elegance, 2009 Ault Park COncours d’Elegance (Awarded Jack O’Conner trophy for Best Style & Elegance) 2009 Hilton Head Concours d’Elegance (awarded for “Automotive Design Excellence”), 2010 Meadow Brook Concours d’Elegance and the 2012 Amelia Island Concours d’Elegance (awarded the John North Trophy for “Best New Coachwork or Recreation”/First in Class). For over ten years, this 500 K Special Roadster has been the “crown jewel” display at the Kemp Auto Museum until the museum closed in June of 2015.  Along with several other dozen collectible antique Benzes, this was perhaps one of the most interesting looks into the marque’s history, receiving positive reviews from both well-studied purveyors as well as the average old car enthusiasts.

Today, the car presents just as it was restored. It will show only the most minor wear from occasional use and is nothing short of Concours-ready! All Mercedes-Benz markings and stamps are visible and in line with production dates in the first part of 1935. The engine and chassis numbers match and enough of the car’s history is known to paint a picture of the ownership timeline . Included with the car is a box of labeled folders with receipts, history, documentation, correspondence, concours invites and photographs documenting the car in graphic detail from 1992. Each of the photos below of documentation is from a different year from 1992-2000. Even the most discerning enthusiasts will find it hard to fault the amounts of records, from the earliest restoration receipts that are now well over 20 years old, to the 100+ photos taken by Prahl of the most minute restoration details. It becomes immediately clear that the craftsmanship was at least as finite as that of the original fabricators in Sindelfingen. The painstaking attention to detail resulted in a ground-up refurbishment and restoration that cost upward of $1.5 million.

Showing only 1369 kilometers (~851 miles) since restoration, this 500K has been driven enough to get all post-restoration bugs worked out. The vehicle is quite literally ready for any driving or concours event and would even be up for a nice afternoon of cruising. This car presents a very unique opportunity to own not only one of the most beautiful Mercedes-Benz models but also one of the most stunning pre-war cars, and one that has made many “most beautiful cars of all time” lists. The car is eligible for almost any prestigious car collecting event and is among the most top-notch CCCA full classics that money will buy. With prices of the remaining 500Ks pushing over eight figures in price, it is our opinion that this is a fantastic entry into the automobile collecting elite. In addition to the 200+ pictures, we would be thrilled to answer any additional questions you may have on this exquisite automobile and would encourage interested parties to call with additional questions! Thank you for taking the time to look!

[540K]

I was quite surprised to see that the Kemp car was shown at Pebble, Amelia and other major concours since they claim to prohibit cars that carry bodies different than what left the factory - even if the car is an accurate representation of a body available when new.  I guess it pays to have deep pockets. A few weeks ago I researched about 50 concours in the USA, and the majority prohibit rebodied cars unless it is how that car left the factory.

 

They can have their rules any way they like - I have no problem with it. However, in the coachbuilt era it was not uncommon for cars not only to be rebodied once but several times. Many of those cars have been shown at the major concours. Why is one car rebodied in 2000 unacceptable compared to one that was rebodied in 1940? Either way, it's not how the car left the factory. And why is a car with a completely new body like it left the factory considered a restoration, and an alternate but correct body style called a replica? I think it is splitting hairs. If it is an accurate representation of a 1936 car, who cares when or by whom the body was fabricated? If it's going to be judged, either take off an appropriate number of points or have a separate class rather than prohibit the public from enjoying it.

[MAXWEDGECHARLIE]

Any comments on the 230 CAB on the Gas Monkey show?

[alsancle]

Must have been a very recent episode?  Can't find any internet references to it.

[MAXWEDGECHARLIE]

It was on last night. I think it was a 1938 230 Cab A. Restored in the Seventies. Kind of bright green. They paid $85,000 for it. I think the interior color is wrong. It needed, or so they thought, a head gasket. They put the gasket in and it smokes a lot so they decided to "Stick a fork in it". I am looking at it and saying to myself; OK it needs rings maybe and a valve job. Send it to Henry or whoever and $5,000 or $10,000 and you get a good one back.

[alsancle]

I think it was this Cab B.  Prices are up but this is a tough car to dump money into.

[Davlet]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-Mercedes-Benz-Other-/271506637462?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

Last year link  

[Davlet]

Craig 

I think you was looking for that kind a part 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271983259467?item=271983259467&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

[alsancle]

Dav, I don't think those two are the same, are they?

[alsancle]

Speaking of the 230 Model.  My dad owned a 230N beetle back racer in the 1950s. I think I must have posted pictures in this thread somewhere.  It had a HUGE gas tank and twin carbs.  Anways,  we found this Solex carb (3 bolt) in the garage and will be bringing it to Hershey.  Henry thinks it is 230 MB.   Does anybody else have any comments?

[Davlet]

yeah you might be correct that 2 dif. cars

 

Dav, I don't think those two are the same, are they?

[MAXWEDGECHARLIE]

Gas Monkey had a detail guy come in and spiffed up the 230 Cab and they got $125,000 for it. They kept harping that the motor was bad and unrepairable but they never told us why.

[alsancle]

That must have been the world's greatest detail guy.

[vintagerodshop]

Did he polish it into a different car?

[alsancle]

A rare 320N coming to auction.    You always need to be particularly careful with the cars that came from eastern Europe.   Any comments Henry?  My comment is that the copy writer should say "Pocket sized 540K Cab A"  not special roadster.

 

In many ways, the Mercedes 320 two-door Cabriolet A really is a pocket-size 500/540K Spezial Roadster. The elegantly slanted split windscreen, the smooth sweep of the front and rear fender lines, as well as the gradually sloping rear deck with its continental-style spare wheel all manage to evoke its larger and hugely expensive sibling.

A query to the Mercedes-Benz Classic archives has elicited the response that chassis 172289 was produced in the Daimler-Benz Mannheim plant. Unfortunately, all purchase order books of the Mannheim plant were destroyed during World War II. As a result, as with all chassis laid down in Mannhiem, there is no data available concerning chassis and engine numbers and the Kommissionsnummer.

The noted German dealer in luxury classic cars, Eberhard Thiesen, discovered 172289 in Russia about 15 years ago. Under Mr. Thiesen's supervision, the car was restored in Lithuania. As Mr. Thiesen has also pointed out, since the Mannheim Mercedes factory records was lost during the war, it is unknown if the car had this body type from new. However, remains of the original body were with the car as found, and they suggested that the car did indeed have the special Cabriolet A bodywork with a vee windshield and sporting fenders. Furthermore, this 320 is built on the short W142/l or N type chassis. After the discovery, the body was reconstructed and a complete mechanical restoration was performed. All work was done under the supervision of Mr. Thiesen. A hard top comes with the car; a rare factory option for this era of motor car.

The car has seen little use since its completion. The restoration presents near-fresh and reflects the quality of work that Eberhard Thiesen so adamantly insisted on. The silver livery complemented by soft saddle leather is very inviting, as are the white-faced classic instruments with silver bezels set in an elegant semi-oval surround in the thoughtfully polished wooden dashboard. Any red-blooded collector will be excited at the thought of getting behind the wheel of this rare car, settling into the comfortable seat and contemplating the unique view to the famous Mercedes tri-star along the length of the shapely bonnet.

Edited September 17, 2015 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Davlet]

Are this tags are brand new???

Edited September 17, 2015 by Davlet (see edit history)

[roadster36]

replica or not

i love it , what a beautyful car.

And did you see the other cars in his collection?

http://www.bonhams.com/video/19519/

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23234/lot/28/

And there is an other one for sale

http://www.coys.co.uk/auction.php?itemID=6602&auctionID=58

Edited September 20, 2015 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[Henry Magno]

AJ I did comment on the short wheelbase car earlier:

 

 

"So I notice with interest this so called "320N Cab A" at the upcoming Bonhams Frederiksen auction. Firstly it's misidentified as a Cab A when it's really configured as a Combination Coupe. SInce the Combi Coupe is extremely rare, last I knew only three existing, mine, the museum car, and a third car from Lithuania I believe, I'm surprised that, if the auction car is real, why it wouldn't be identified as a combination coupe. 

 

I met the owner of the Lithuania car in my shop some years ago. His car did not have a hardtop and we discussed copying mine for his car. I have a few pictures of this car and I believe it was real, since it was too rough to be fake.  But it was intact enough to see that it was a real car, not just a pile of parts. I did hear that possibly a copy or copies of this car were being made. Interesting that it says this car was restored in Lithuania.

[alsancle]

Thanks Henry. I should have noticed the missing landau bars.   Do you think this is the Lithuanian car?   If so they should definitely post some pictures of it in the its unrestored state.