HELP! ID this 1913-16 chassis used under the 1917 Kelsey friction drive prototype

[George Albright]

Dear Friends My 1917 Kelsey prototype friction drive chassis arrived today! It was the basis for the production 1920-24 Kelsey friction drive cars built. Mr. Kelsey writes that he built this chassis in the latter part of 1916 and finished it in 1917. Since he used a second hand touring car body,the chassis was probably used as well,and is probably from a 1913-15ish car.Mr. Kelsey wrote in an article that the car was painted grey and had a used touring car body,which he disposed of off of this chassis in the 1930s and then stored the chassis. The fenders are still original paint grey.The chassis is originally from another production car and I need your help IDing the base car chassis that he modified with this rear friction drive mechanism,and probably installed this 1916 or 1917 Messnick Phipps 22 HP engine in. It is possible that Messnick Phipps was merely the foundary and the engine was actually made by Perkins of Detroit. The brass tag on the engine says Messnick Phipps Detroit,and is hand stamped Model B,Engine # 152. Anyway back to the chassis; It is either 100 inches or 100 1/2 inch wheelbase. The wheels have 30 X 3 tires on them,and are non demountable. Notice the front axle spring perches have a second unused hole,like the front axle originally had a wider set of springs on it than now.The radiator has a tag on the back of it that says Bush Mfg. Co. Hartford,Conn. with a high serial # stamped in it,that being 13,141. The radiator has the shape of a teens Overland,but has the wrong style radiator neck. This neck is round,and Overlands were oval necks.. The chassis is also not Ford Model T,and not 1911-17 Metz,and not 1916 Grant and not 1916-17 Woods Mobilette,even though the last 1916-17 Woods used the same MP 22 HP engine as this.The fenders drop down on the front and rear running board like those off of a touring car,not a roadster or speedster. Anyway we know from the builder it was a touring car with grey paint and red leather. It is possible that the radiator does NOT belong to this chassis,but was added by Kelsey. It has 2 springs in the front and one in the rear,but may have had 2 originally,but Kelsey may have gone to one in the rear when he added the friction drive rear. Your thoughts please? More photos avail. by email request to me. George Albright,Fla. cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

Edited May 6, 2010 by George Albright (see edit history)

[dl456]

George,

Radiator sure looks like Studebaker. Why are you sure the chassis is not Grant. It has

many characteristics but not sure of the wheelbase. Do you have the steering linkage?

Dennis

[Leif Holmberg]

This is what I found in AMERICAN CARS 1805-1942.

Leif in Sweden.

[George Albright]

Thanks guys for the tips. Yes the radiator looks like Studebaker but I went to the Standard Catalogue of American Cars and studied circa 1914-16 Studebaker small 4s. Wrong neck on the radiator and around 106 inch WB verses mine at 100 or 100 1/2 inch WB. It definitely not a circa 1916 Grant. Wrong wheelbase and front springs are totally different as is radiator shell. Thanks for the Messnich Phipps tip. Not one of their chassis either. Forgot to mention that if I can ID the chassis,then it probably carries the same touring car body that Kelsey originally had on this chassis and then discarded in the 1930s. I would like to remount a "correct" touring car body,or just put on speedster cowl, bucket seats,and oval or round gas tank like 1913-14 Overland,Metz,Hudson factory speedsters and leave rear friction drive unit exposed for display purposes. Anyone got any speedster components like I mentioned? Thanks,George

[George Albright]

Guys looking further,I think this chassis is earlier than 1914ish,as the front springs are fully elliptical and not semi elliptical like one many 1912-15 cars such as that period Studebakers,EMFs etc. In addition the flatness of the top of the fenders,and their drop down curves at the running board looks earlier too. Geo.

Edited May 7, 2010 by George Albright (see edit history)

[George Albright]

Can some of you Overland guys look at the radiator and the makers tag on the rear of it,and determine if at least the radiator is circa 1911-16 Overland? Notice the shell is NOT painted. Thanks,George

[Rust Rustler]

OVERLAND RADIATORS WERE BUILT BY KINWOOD, DEFINATELY NOT OVERLAND

BRISCOE MANUFACTURING MADE RADIATORS TO A NUMBER OF COMPANYS, IF YOU CAN DIG UP A LIST OF THOSE COMPANYS SUPPLIED THEN YOU WOULD HAVE A GOOD START TO ID. THIS ONE. THIS RADIATOR LOOOKS VERY SIMILAR TO THE EARLY PAIGE, [ I'M CHASING AN EARLY PAIGE RADIATOR BY THE WAY ]

FULL ELIPTIC SPRINGS WERE STILL IN USE IN THE LATER TEENS THOUGH RARELY. THE 1917 BRISCOE USED FULL ELIPTICS ALL ROUND.

ALL THE BEST.....NOEL

[George Albright]

Thanks for the response. However please note,that this radiator has a name plate on the rear that says it was made by Bush Radiator Co. Please see photo above, of the plate. Does anyone know what makes used Bush radiators like this? Thanks,George

[Rust Rustler]

AHHHHH YOU ARE RIGHT, IN MY DEFENCE I CAN ONLY SAY I MUST HAVE HAD THE BRISCOE FULL ELIPTIC SPRINGS IN MY MIND WHEN I REPLIED.

I HAVN'T HEARD OF THE BUSH RADIATOR COMPANY, ONE CONTINUES TO LEARN.

ALL THE BEST....NOEL

[George Albright]

Here is a factory photo and info on the back of it,of a 1922 Kelsey production model. It is thought several hundred were built with various 4 and 6 cylinder engines from 1920-24. This car has friction drive in the rear,like my 1917 Kelsey prototype has. Notice how appointed this car is,with a tinted green glass sun visor,Ks on the hubcaps,fancy radiator crest,etc,etc. Any one know where any of these are or parts of them are? Thanks,George

[slightmiss]

The front frame horns looked to be choped off and a upper cross member put on to mount full eliptical springs, I bet they were originaly half elipticals. that would set them in a little so you could pick up those narower holes in the front axle. Also the frame is stright, not many manufactors were using stright frames in 1914 most had drops to lower the body on the chassis it mabe a earlier chassis. that and the non demountable wheels.

[George Albright]

Your comment about the frame front ears being cut off is an interesting observation. I will be at my garage where the Kelsey is stored this weekend. I will look and see if the frame rails in the front were in deed cutoff and report on Monday. Thanks for your thoughts! George

[George Albright]

Dear Friends I inspected the Kelsey chassis this weekend,and the writer is exactly correct! The front frame rails have been cut off in the front,probably to eliminate the frame horns. In addition a cross member has been bolted across the frame in the front from side to side,so that in turn the front fully elliptical springs have something to bolt onto. I think this chassis is from a circa 1910-1913 car now that I have looked at the chassis, fenders,non demountable wheels etc. It is currently a 100 1/2 inch wheelbase,but since the frame horns have been cutoff ,we may never know the original wheelbase of the chassis and thus in turn who built it. Our only solid lead is the fenders and the radiator to try to ID the chassis. AND those might not be original to this chassis! Please keep studying! George