Gary_N Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 OK, again. Yoda (my '50) is killing me. This time it's the front end. I have new shocks and replaced the king pins; etc. Seems the parts I get are never exactly correct....but that's another complaint. Anyway, please look at the picture attached. First look at the top of the knuckle (upright for you MOPAR people) and the distance on both sides of the shock yoke. And yes, I ripped one of the seals. Now look at the alignment of the lower portion of the knuckle to the lower control arm. It's at least a 1/4" off. Now I guess I could move the top of the knuckle over a little bit but it seems like that would make the position of the knuckle in the shock yoke wrong. I thought it should be centered so to speak.All I can think is something is bent. There's no wiggle room with the lower control arm. Maybe the shocks? Should I keep the shocks loose while setting this up? Maybe I should re-read the manual???Anyway, can someone illuminate me? At this rate, Yoda ain't gonna be visiting Hershey in all his lack of glory.Time for a Manahattan (or two)!Thanks in advance for your help. You guys are great!!!Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Please don't tell me I have the knuckles mixed up. That would be a disaster of disasters.I made sure that was not the case (I hope). The grease fitting on the knuckle should be facing the grill. And, the pinch bolt on the top of the knuckle should face the frame. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 By the way, the pic is of the passenger side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete O Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 The top positioning is adjustable. That's how you set the caster and camber. If I remember correctly, loosen the locking bolt, and use an allen key to turn the bolt that goes through the bushings. I'm kind of remembering that you take one of the grease fitting out to access the allen head? You're going to need to bring it to an alignment shop after you're all done anyway (good luck finding one that knows how to do a '50 Buick!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
special55 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Hi Gary,Sorry to hear you are having such difficulties. I just finished my 55 and they look to be about the same. I to struggled with the replacement parts.Lets start with a couple of items that might have gotten you here.1. I'm sure you probably have this correct but I will ask anyway. When you installed the inner bushings and shaft did you make sure the shaft centered in the control arm? Everything starts from there and if that is off you will not get the outers to go in the correct placement.2. I don't recall mine being so tight but I installed the lowers first and then the uppers. You may want to give that a go and see if it helps correct the situation.3. My shocks were the very last thing installed. Not sure if those can make that big a difference but I would disconnect them and see if that gives you enough freedom to center things in the control arm.Good luck and remember this is a fun hobbie Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Rich, the manual said to center the shaft so I measured from the inside of the lower control arm yoke to the mounting tabs on the shaft. They are easy enough to move though and that may be a good place to check. I think I'll also loosen the shocks and see what happens as well. Maybe I can get everything lined up before installing the springs.This is crunch weekend if I ever expect to get to Hershey. And yes, this is a fun hobby.....but frustrating from time to time. Thanks for the help!!!Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
special55 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Hi Gary,It sounds like you did the inners properly so you should be good there.I would disconnect the shocks and remove the upper pins. Then install the lowers with the knuckle centered. Leave the lower pins loose but install them all the way through the bushings.Then install the uppers with the knuckle centered in the control arm.I don't know if this is the prefered method but doing it in this order might help get you where you need to go.The other option I have used is to unbolt the lower control arm from the frame, set up all the outter hardware and then bolt the control arm back up.Good luck. I hope one of these options works for you.Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Rich, will be working all weekend to get it together. Thanks for the help!Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 GaryRich has done this more recently than I have so he is the resident expert. Did you ever get your front shocks rebuilt; if so, some rebuilders cut the arms where they join near the pin and then weld back together...if not done correctly it can be deformed enough to cause problems.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Willie:I bought 'new' (rebuilt) shocks from Five Points in Southern California. They don't look like they have been welded. Still have the same looking cast 'slag' that the originals have. Rich: The front spring cup bolts to the front shock. So the shock is held by three bolts. There's no wiggle room at all. I've measured and re-measured the lower control arm distance from the mounting bolts to the arm. Maybe a 1/16th to work with there. I think I'll take the 1/16th and Install the knuckle to the lower control arm first and see what happens.Thanks again!Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 Well in case anyone is interested, I managed to get the passenger side steering knuckle relatively lined up. Had to move the lower control arm about 3/16ths. I hope these cars have some wiggle room. Anyway, I find that as you tighten the upper pivot pin bushing, the steering knuckle support moves and changes the alignment to the lower control arm. It seems like it shouldn't move but it does. I guess its supposed to do that but makes for a hard time to get things aligned...that is....if you want everything centered. Driver's side was much easier until I discovered that the replacement lower control arm I bought is the wrong side. Now I'm pretty much dead in the water. Unless....(the original lower control arm is bend in at shaft side about a 1/4 inch) I can somehow 'press' the original lower control arm into shape. Can that be done?? Would it be safe? I was going to try heat and a hammer and was talked out of that. A mechanic friend told me that could make the arm brittle. Of course, if I wasn't trying to rush it all together to get to Hershey, none of this would have happened. Ah well....maybe I still have a shot if I can find a not very busy machine shop on the way to the office tomorrow. I'm really thinking you need to be retired to ever get an old car together. All this working for a living stuff is getting in the way!Thanks for the ears!Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trp3141592 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Hi Gary,I would very STRONGLY advise against heat-altering your steering parts and suspension parts as a very real safety issue. Remember, everything you need for your car is available or rebuildable. Your life and others' lives are not.Auto workers put these things together at the factory on an assembly line, so it certainly can be done without altering the parts. If you have incorrect parts or have them in incorrect orientation, then stop, investigate, see what fits, and remember that it was done originally in a matter of less than a minute or two. You have more time available--take that time to get it the way it was built to be. If need be, find another '50 Buick owner and get photos or an in-your-face inspection.And--if you want a really memorable suspension and steering adventure, just try aligning front end parts on a Cord!--Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 Tom, I get that. Not going to heat anything. I was trying to drive to Hershey on Thursday. Looks like the wrong control arm will kill that deal. But, control arms are easy to find. I assume the car that gave me the wrong side had the other waiting for me.Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
special55 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Hey Gary,What luckIt's bad enough half the new parts that are manufactured to supposed factory specs don't fit but to get the wrong side control arm? YIKESI don't have any experience with your shock set up. Mine has tube front shocks. I can't believe the trouble you are having getting these things centered. Mine were a pain but they lined up with minimal agrivation.I hope things work out for you so you can still make Hershey.Best of luck,Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Rich: As far as the new parts go, 1/2 of the parts I bought were suspect. Bushings in particular. I wasted hours fighting with the 'new parts'. This project has taught me that rusty NOS parts are better than supposed new ones. I bought the control arm from a yard in OK. I asked for the drivers side and got the passenger side. Unfortunately, like a dummy, I didn't check to see that the part was correct. I even sand blasted, primed and painted. It was staring me in the face the whole time. And to add insult to injury, after blasting and painting the wheels and installed the new tires, I found one of the wheels was bent. Of the six new brakes line, five were wrong. I guess I wasted about $500 on these parts. I don't mind spending money....I just hate wasting it.I'm going to back off and not rush. The fitments thing is driving me crazy. I need to get it correct. Hershey will still be fun, just without Yoda. I don't like the way the steering knuckle (support I guess) sits inside the yoke of the upper control arms. It seems to me it should not move once the pin is in and clamped. The left side bushing tightens up nice, but the right side bushing moves the whole support when you tighten it. Doesn't make sense to me. I'm going to take it apart again. I hate to pull the spring since I just got it in. Springs make me nervous. I wrap chain around a coil and the control arm just in case they come flying out.I see you have a big block Vette. Love those. I have a Z06 in the garage. I was racing for awhile. Looking forward to getting back on the road course!!Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
special55 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Gary,My luck hasn't been quite that bad. Although it did seem like the front end stuff was what I had the most problems getting the right parts for.I had very good luck with my brake lines. I used Inline Tube here in Michigan and they fit with very little adjustment. I would recomend them for any of your future projects.Have fun at Hershey and if you see any good looking 55 Chrome give me a shout Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trp3141592 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Hi Gary,AMEN to the safety chain around the main spring!Next step is to get a lathe and a milling machine. As my dad used to say to my infinitely patient mother, "You just can't run a household without a lathe and a mill." I would add to that quote, "...and a MiG welder, a set of torches, compressed air, a planisher, a bead-blasting cabinet..." I can't wait for an excuse to get a plasma cutter and maybe a drive-on lift.--Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Tom, I have a lift. Bought a used Rotary. It was cheap. And, I could never do this without one. If I have to be under a car, I'd rather stand! I'd love a lathe and a mill.....just wouldn't know how to use either!Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 As a follow up and a shocking surprise, if you READ the shop manual and actually follow what it says, suspension parts seems to magically line up as intended. Another few years and I may just get this right!Thanks for the ears.Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
special55 Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 So what part of the procedure did you deviate from?It might benefit others in the future if you let us know.Glad to hear you are getting past it though.Good luck with the rest of your repairs,Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_N Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 Rich:The idea is to get the steering knuckle support to sit in the middle of the upper control arm (lever shock in my case). The upper control arm has a clamp side. The clamp side is the side where the pivot pin is adjusted (for Caster/Camber) through the grease fitting hole of the pivot pin bushing (internal threaded bushing). The opposite side gets the bushing with the external and internal threads. So, you center the steering support knuckle with the pivot pin being centered as well then tighten the steering knuckle support clamp. Next install both the bushings loosely and tighten the non clamp side first. Then tighten the clamps side bushing, and then the clamp on the upper control arm. Doing it any other way for some reason moves the steering knuckle support off center and the lower control arm will not line up with the lower pivot pin.I pulled my hair out for a couple of hours last week and could not get it right. The above method took 5 minutes and everything lined up perfectly.Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
special55 Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hey Gary,Glad to hear it worked out.I'm not sure if I followed the directions to a "T" or not when I did my 55 but most likely I did since I wasn't that familiar with the vehicle.This is my first go around with a pre 60s vehicle.I'm having lots of fun and learning a ton though.Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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