Guest dpannell Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 My sons driving an 88 Regal 2.8 74k miles....recently it began quitting...when warm...then would restart in roughly 20 minutes. Without even doing a pressure check I immediately swapped out the fuel pump, screen, and filter. Dumb move..didn't help but at least I shouldn't have to worry for another good while.Secondly we changed out the ICM and crank position sensor...figuring it was a heat related. (gotta tell you they were both a pita compared to my Reattas) Again it wasn't the cure. Finally I just changed out the ECM and again the same problem exists....the car will run very smoothly, very powerfully (for a 2.8) for about 45 minutes....then POOF! it quits and won';t restart.I'm $300 deep into finding this cure....and I'm fresh out of ideas. If the car weren't so nice I'd give up! LOL. Anyone have any suggestions beyond directions to the crusher? THanks, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 I'll bet Ronnie chimes in... He helped me on a car that was donated to our church. It was an '85 Olds Cutlass Cierra 2.5 motor. In this case it was the pick up coil in the distributer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Divide and conquer is the best way to proceed. As soon as the engine quits you need to determine if it is fuel supply problem or an ignition problem. Do this:1. Check to see if there is spark going to the plugs. If the answer is yes go to step 2.2. Spray some WD-40 (carry some with you) into the air intake and see if it tries to run on it.Check it out as soon as it quits, right there on the side of the road. Don't wait till you get it home.Once you narrow the problem down to fuel or spark you can more easily determine what is causing it to quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest re-reatta Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Ronnie,WD-40 ?? I never knew that would work. You learn something new every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 WD-40 is not a replacement for starting fluid when trying to start engines in cold weather but it works in this situation for testing an engine that may not start because it is not getting fuel. BTW, if you use it, don't spray it with the nozzel tube connected. It needs to be in the form of a mist to mix with air in order for the engine to try and start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Richard D Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Does the 1988 2.8 use a coil pack like our Reattas? If so and it looks like a no spark problem get a can of circuit chiller, we use it to check for intermittent components on circuit boards. You would have to use quite a bit to drop the temp. of a large item like that coil pack but if it starts running it might be worth it. Radio Shack might still sell it next to the contact cleaner spray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Ronnie, I did check the fuel pressure at the rail immediately after it quit...35 lbs. It is a spark issue. Whatta you think about the knock sensor? I've cruised the net looking for some answers and a few closely related engines have suffered the same fate due to a bad knock sensor. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Have you actually check to see if there is a strong spark when it quits or are you assuming since you have 35 psi at the fuel rail that it has to be a spark issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Believe the 88 2.8 is the same as my 86 Fiero 2.8. (Have an 88 manual but not here in the wilds of southern AZ). If so it has sort of a distributer (ICM is in base) and a separate coil.Since it heals after a specific time, I'd bet on ignition but can chack fuel pressure on rail. Spec is about 40 psi but should run with anything over 20 if the injectors are firing.Place to start is the "cranks but does not run" section in the FSM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Ronnie, The spark is there...but seems weak after it heats up....The pressure at the rail is 35. The knock sensor is one of the only things that have not been changed out....and the symptoms have remained the same despite changing out the ecm,icm and crank sensor. Padgett, Unfortunately I don't have the FSM for this car....It woulda saved me a buck or two (hundred) I'm sure. TOnight I'm going to put in a new knock sensor and water temp sensor. I've read in several different Buick posts where these can cause similar symptoms. I'll keep you posted and thanks for your input. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 You still have not eliminated the possibility of the engine having a fuel supply problem. Just because you have 35psi at the fuel rail does not mean the injector(s) are spraying fuel into the engine. See if it will try to run on WD-40 as described above before spending more money. Then let me know.I have not personally experienced the knock sensor kepping the engine from running. The purpose of the knock sensor is to retard the ignition timing when the engine is under load. Retarding the ignition timing can reduce power but the engine should still run. I am not ruling it out but it is very unlikely the knock sensor is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Will be home Sunday. Reasonably certain the 2.8 is the same as an 88 Fiero. Is it VIN code 9 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Ronnie, You win....I replaced the knock sensor because every site on the 'net said it would cause the same symptoms...and it was only another 30 bucks. Ran the car...it was as smooth as ever for 40 minutes occasionally putting it in gear and giving it a little throttle to test...then I jockied the other cars around so I could pull it out of the garage and it quit as soon as it revved up. It wouldn't restart. I shot it with wd-40 and it fired immediately....and ran...until I revved it up again. I'm majorly confused......Have you seen it before? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 I'm going to assume the 2.8 is the same as the one that was in my '88 Fiero.Your problem is likely the pickup coil in the bottom of the distributor.The pickup coil generates a small voltage (about .9 volts) each time a magnet on a rotor in the bottom of the distributor passes by it. There are magnets on the rotor (it is sometimes called a reluctor ring). The ECM uses that signal (voltage) as a reference to determine the position of the crankshaft much like the crankshaft position sensor does on the Reatta. The ECM opens the injectors (by grounding one of the terminals, the other is hot anytime the key is in the run position) to spray fuel at the correct time based on the reference signal. Without receiving a reference signal voltage the ECM has no way of determining the correct time to open the injector and no fuel is sprayed.The pickup coil is not the same as the ignition module which is also in the distributor. You must remove the distributor to install the pickup coil. If you do the work yourself, be sure to mark everything as you disassemble it so you can put everything back the way it came apart.Below are instructions for testing the coil but the test will not be accurate unless you can do the test while the engine is still hot and will not run.1.Test the pickup coil in the distributor.-Remove the distributor cap-Disconnect the small plug from the ignition module.-Connect one lead from a ohmmeter to ground.-Connect the other lead to each one of the terminals in the plug, one at a time.You should NOT read any resistance on either terminal.I hope this helps you out. Let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Good luck on swapping it out. I took one look and asked one of our better volunteer mechanics to do it... For him it was easy, for me... impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Here is basically what is needed to replace the pickup coil. This is just off the top of my head so I may be leaving out a step or two but this will give you the general idea.-Remove the distributor cap-Mark the base of the distributor in order to align it on re-installation.-Mark the rotors position on the distributor housing.-Remove the rotor-Remove the distributor hold down bolt.-Remove the distributor and clamp in a vise (don't over tighten)-Drive out the roll pin holding the gear on the distributor shaft-Remove ignition module-Pull shaft out of the distributor-Remove pickup coil-Reassemble in reverse order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Ronnie, Unless I am missing something...there is no distributor. ECM, ICM, Crank sensor....just like the Reatta. I am really miffed by this whole thing. I have replaced the ECM, ICM , knock sensor, crank sensor and fuel pump, strainer and filter.....and the symptoms are exactly the same as in the beginning. I'm getting really close to needing directions to the crusher. LOL I couldn't reproduce the results I obtained earlier when squirting the WD-40 into the venturi.(through the rocker breather tube) Now it just cranks. I'm one step away from sending it to a dealer. The problem has got to be simple...I'm just missing it. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Sorry Dave, I can't help without seeing it. I have never looked at the 2.8 without a distributor. Must be different from the Fiero engine. I would still suspect the crankshaft position sensor even though you said it had been changed.Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike_s Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Just some food for thought here,I had flakey power supplies(original and 1st replacement) in my Reatta which caused problems ranging from the dashboard intermittently going blank, to a intermittent rough running engine to an engine that would just die and then restart after it cooled down, some times in few hours, sometimes in a few days.Flakey ignition switch?Is there a common ground point like the one behind the reatta battery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Ronnie, Yeah....I coulda swore it woulda been the crank sensor too....but I put a new one in yesterday. I really am miffed. Its an 88 2.8 all aluminum multiport fi engine...the only one used in Regals in 88 I think.The part that gets me is how smooth and nice it runs and drives until it quits....then...nothing. I'm going to sleep on it then play with it again tomorrow.If you come up with any more ideas PLEASE blast them my way....and thanks again for all your input so far. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike_s Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Any way to see if it's throwing any codes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I've been back through it...double checked every connection...every fuse...and still the same symptoms. The only code I could get it to throw was when I ran it without the gas cap. Anyone think it could be the prom? Its the only thing that hasn't been changed....I had to transfer it to the new ecm. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Dave, I hate to sound like a broken record but you are going to need to find out <span style="text-decoration: underline">for certain</span> if it is a fuel problem or an ignition problem or maybe something else. You said the WD-40 made the engine run in one post and then you said it didn't in another. Could you please test it again when it quits and find out if it will try to run on WD-40 or it won't? It will make it much easier to troubleshoot if you can find out for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Ronnie, Before I go any further I gotta say Thanks. I've seen you do it here before....but you really stick with someone when they're needing another perspective and help. Thank you. I should have mentioned it in my last post but I did try wd-40 again and it did not allow it to start back up. I even took the breather tube off and shot it in this time to no avail. I just now restarted the car after it sat for over an hour....it will run so long as I don't add much throttle. As soon as it hits ~ 2000 rpm it will quit. but will restart. Once it gets too warm again it will not even attmpt to start for another hour or so. Earlier while it was running I kept the fuel pressure guage on it and it would maintain ~35lbs at idle and would jump to ~ 40 when accelerating. When it quit and wouldn't restart it stayed at 40.I have spark....even when it won't run. It doesn't seem very hot though when the car won't run. I've double checked grounds on the engine block and the body....as well as all the connectors and fuses. I even swapped out ignition and fuel related relays.I traced down the sensor cables to ensure they weren't being burnt or grounding out on anything....I checked all the vacuum hoses and they are solid and tight.I even sprayed a bit of wd-40 around the intake ports to check if its warping under heat or something.I even placed some ice on a few of the sensors while it was not running to see if I could narrow it down.I'm not very savvy regarding the prom and computer...is there a chance it could be flaking under heat?I'm gonna beat this thing....(BOY DO I WISH IT WERE A 3800 !!) Thanks again! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Dave, Thanks for your kind words. I do try to help when I can. So far I have not done too well on this one.I've lost track in this thread. You may have already said if you have changed the O2 sensor or not. If you have not changed it you might want to try that. One of the major things that happens when the engine warms up is the computer starts looking at info from the O2 sensor to determine the correct amount of fuel sprayed by the injectors. The O2 sensor could be sending an incorrect reading to the computer that is causing it to make the fuel mixture overly rich or too lean. Just throwing this out for something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 You're right.....I hadn't thought about that at all. I'll change it out this evening after I get in from work. It is one of very few things that isn't new...and it can't hurt. I'll keep you posted and thanks again, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Ronnie, I replaced the O2 sensor tonight....still the same symptoms. Ran exactly 22 minutes then quit. Wd-40 didn't work ..and still had spark. And still no codes beyond code 12.I talked in length with one of the guys at Advance auto....he said he had a similar problem with an aluminum 4 cylinder...it was the result of a bad head gasket. I see no oil in the antifreeze....see no antifreeze in the oil....Have suffered no antifreeze loss and theres no residue on the oil filler cap. Ever heard of that?I am going to try one more thing....and will feel really stupid if it works. (Getting used to the stupid thing though) I'm adding 5 gallons of new higher octane gas to the car. I have no idea when and where my son bought his last tank. (presently 1/2 tank) I welcome ANY further ideas...as of Monday I'm taking the car to a dealer (pucker) My sons college may have to wait a year! LOL Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Does it even try to run on the WD-40? Just out of curiosity try driving it around a while without the gas cap tightened up all the way so it can get air into the tank. I had an S10 pickup that gave me a fit with quitting on the side of the road that acted the way you describe. I too thought is was heat related because it would go about the same distance before it would quit. The problem turned out to be the vent inside the cap was stuck and would not let air into the tank. The engine would run until it pulled a vacuum in the tank and then it would quit. I could let it sit and it would restart. It was much worse with a full tank of gas. The cap should let air in but not let fumes out. I found it by hearing air rushing into the tank when I removed the cap in the garage. The cap vent is a long shot but at this point anything is worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Ronnie, I opened the gas cap and heard what sounded and smelled like fumes rushing out.....The car would not start. I poured a small amount of gas into the breather tube. It started briefly but ran like crap (understandably). It would not start a second time. The car is still warm from the first attempt after changing the O2 sensor. Daveps...I will personally drive to Tennessee and buy you and your spouse a steak dinner if you can keep me from going to the dealer! ROTFLMAO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Car started without the gas cap...(had been 1-1/2 hours since previous and was cooling down)..I got a code 45...O2 sensor rich. It ran 15 minutes with a/c on then quit again and would not restart. I poured gas into the breather tube again...and it ran crappy briefly then quit. still showing 40 lbs pressure at the rail. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 The info you are giving points to a fuel delivery problem if you have 40psi fuel pressure at the fuel rail and it is trying to run on gasoline when you spray it in the intake. <span style="font-weight: bold">Be careful spraying gasoline.</span> It is much more dangerous to use than WD-40 although it may run a little better on it.I still suspect the crank position sensor or wiring between it and the ECM. If you could get some type of spray for cooling electrical components and spray it on the sensor when it gets hot to see if the engine will run. That might tell you if the sensor is the problem. Some of the contact cleaners do a good job of cooling electrical components if you don't have the spray made for that purpose.Have you tested the injector harness to see if the injectors stop working when the engine quits? That is the next thing you really need to know. You can test one of them by unplugging the connector at the injector and connecting a multimeter. I don't know what the wire colors will be. One of the wires should have 12 volts at all times and the other wire should be grounded momentarily by the ECM when it is time for the injector to open. I use an analog meter with a needle that sweeps the scale to test the injectors. Some digital meters do not have a fast enough response time to show the ground signal from the ECM. You will only see short, millisecond pulses from the ECM.I would test an injector when the engine is running properly to get a baseline and then test it again when the engine quits to see if anything changes.You have not mentioned anything about the MAF or MAP sensors. Does the 2.8 have either one of those?Hang in there. You will eventually find the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Ronnie, This morning I went through all the connections from the crank sensor through the ecm....there was no corrosion or anything...I dielectric greased them, put them back together, cleared the previous codes and ran the car again...this time 30 minutes (its a cool morning here). DUring this time the primary cooling fan cycled like normal..and I was running the AC to speedup the heat. When it quit I put the meter on the two injectors that I could get to...and they are both firing but the car will not run. I did get a code ...45 again...stating that the o2 sensor reads rich for more than a minute of time. The code set long before the engine quit. Yes, the engine has both MAF and MAP sensors.....and a TPS just like the 3800. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Grasping at straws here... the code 45 before the engine stops might suggest a faulty MAF sensor. While it is running tap on it with a screwdriver handle or something and see if the engine stumbles. It will be an expensive item to replace for testing purposes. Maybe you can find an auto parts store that would let you return it if that is not the problem. Here our Advance Auto Parts guy will do that if he knows you and you are a good customer.This is a tough one!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Rather than buy one at a parts store you could try getting one from a salvage yard. There are a number of them at www.car-part.com for under $40.00 Just look up air meter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I'm going to surrender guys. Great big white flag. I've spent way too much time and money...its best left for the dealership now.(map and maf didn't help)Ronnie...your patience and dilligence has been surpassed by none. You are definitely an asset to the people on this site. I thank you..and if theres any way I can repay it let me know. THank you again, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Sorry we couldn't fix this one online. I'm always willing to help if I can. Let us know what the problem is when you get it fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 We are getting a conflict here - 35-40 psi on the fuel rail yet starts and runs briefly if you put fuel into intake.I wonder if it sat for a long time at 1/2 tank if you have water in the gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Padgett, Thanks for your input....No, the car hasn't been sitting at all in the last 3 years. He drives it daily to school and work...and I did drain the tank when I changed the pump and screen. I've even added 5 gallons of newer gas since then just to eliminate fuel as a possibility. I agree with the conflict....at Ronnie's urging I checked the injectors to see if they were firing...and they were...I also have spark. THe whole things a mystery to me and Ronnie....so I'm going to send it to a dealer as soon as my cash flow allows me. In the mean time my son is having a blast driving my 90 Coupe. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpannell Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Ronnie and Padgett, It turns out the entire issue is a short in the wiring harness......specifically the Manifold absolute pressure sensor harness. Apparently heat from the exhaust system has slowly melted down the wiring inside the sheath at the rear of the engine. He is back on the road...and better than ever. ( a huge weight off my shoulders) I told him this car should now last him through his first grandchild. Thanks again for all your concern and help......a strong testimonial to this forum! THanks again, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Glad you got it going. That problem is something we would not have found via the Internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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