'53 56C Coil Spring Replacement

[g-g-g0]

Can anyone share their experience or thoughts on spring replacement. The ones on the car have settled down considerably and I plan to replace them. Should I go with a "standard" coil or go with a heavier spring. The parts book only shows one part number for the front but have a standard, +200 pound and +500 pound spring for the rear. I do not want to seriously affect the ride and make it too harsh but looking for additional support.

Any input will be appreciated.

Gary

[Guest simplyconnected]

EATON DETROIT SPRING

Visit their web site, then call these guys. They KNOW coil and leaf springs.

Dave

[Bhigdog]

Or call ESPO Springs and Things, excellant quality at a MUCH cheaper price. Be advised that the front OEM springs had the top coil ground flat so it would seat square. None of the repro's I'm aware of are ground flat. I installed a set of repro's in my 55 and they rubbed the side of the spring pocket because the unground top coil caused the coil to bow side ways. I don't know if others have this happen or maybe they don't mind if it does. I ended up using the originals but made a 3/8" spacer for the top of the spring to make up for "sag"......Bob.

[Guest simplyconnected]

We're savin' money now! If you got the OEM springs from Eaton, you wouldn't have that problem. Instead of grinding the spring, Eaton forms it.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Instead of grinding the spring, Eaton forms it.

</div></div>

Actually the OEM's look forged also. I was told by others that the Eaton springs were not leveled at the top. IF they are I stand corrected. The bottoms are not supposed to be leveled to fit the formed bottom retainer........Bob

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bhigdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...I was told by others that the Eaton springs were not leveled at the top. IF they are I stand corrected. The bottoms are not supposed to be leveled to fit the formed bottom retainer........Bob</div></div>

This is right off their web site:

"Every spring made by EATON DETROIT SPRING, INC. is -

• Made to the Original Factory Blue Print of which we have over 23,000

• Made from SAE 5160 High Alloy Spring Steel

• Rolled and Tapered ends

• Shot peened for longer life

• Can be custom built to meet special needs

Moreover, to add just a bit more credibility – EATON DETROIT SPRING, INC. has been the only spring manufacturer to be Licensed by both Ford Motor Company and General Motors

Restoration Programs.

In addition to Leaf and Coil Springs,we carry a full line of Installation Kits that include bushings, shackles,

u-bolts, axle pads etc."

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We have the front springs for $239.95 a pair plus shipping. No, they are not grounded down, since it's unnecessary. In order to provide shipping cost's, we require the "ship to" zip code.

</div></div>

Not trying to get in a p***ing contest with you but the above quote is cut and pasted directly from an EMail today from Eaton Detroit Spring when I inquired if the tops of their 55 Buick front coils were ground or tapered to sit square. I guess just "having" 23,000 drawings of OEM springs is a bit different from actually "making" the part to the drawing. Their statement that every spring is "made to the original facrory blue print" is both incorrect and rather surprising.

Again, not trying to get in some sort of information contest here just trying to give readers some help. Evidently a lot of people who buy "unsquared" springs don't care if they bow out of shape and rub the frame spring pocket. I, however do and had to go through the trouble to replace the brand new springs.

I've offered those springs free to anyone who wants them. No takers so far..........Bob

[g-g-g0]

Appreciate the discussion. I have not called either one (also a place on the west coast Jamco) yet as I was waiting to see what input I received here. It appears that no one is producing springs that are ground/forged like orginals. So with this in mind what is the fix? Does anyone make a spacer? Any one had experience with the "variable rate" springs that Springs and Things offer?

Thanks again

Gary

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So with this in mind what is the fix?</div></div>

Depending on how much your springs have "sagged" you can add spacers to the TOP of the springs. Buick actually had a part number for them. They were 1/8" thick and adding up to 3 per spring was approved. I'm fairly sure that was on the safe side and you could go a bit more. I made my own spacers out of 1/8 steel with a plasma torch. It's not that difficult and the dimensions are not critical. They are basicly just rings maybe 6" in diameter with a 5" I.D. hole. Measure your spring O.D. and I.D. and cut to match. Another possible approach would be cutting slices off of heavy wall pipe of the right diameter.

If you find a spring supplier with leveled tops let everyone know...........Bob

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "variable rate" springs that Springs and Things offer?

</div></div>

Keep in mind that Springs and Things is not the maker of anything they sell, so are just parroting what the maker says. Their prices are great and some things they sell are as good as any, but thier springs are not leveled and they will tell you flat out it doesn't matter. Well, it DOES matter or the OEM manufacturers would not have gone for the extra expense over millions of springs.

[old-tank]

Bob

I have springs from Coil Spring Specialties and they work fine in all 3 of my 55's. It has been awhile but I don't remember any problem with the tops being square or not...I do remember comparing with the originals and they matched as far as size, coils...

Air conditioned 55's have one 1/8" spacer on the right spring only and I remember glueing it and the insulator in place to install the springs.

Willie

[Guest simplyconnected]

For many years Ford's Monroe Michigan Plant made coil springs. That's where I saw long bars heated nearly white hot, then shoved into a turning mandrel. In about one second, the bar follows a groove in the mandrel for several turns. When the lagging bar end is formed, the follower lets go, the spring naturally expands, and a stripper shoves it off, into an oil-bath quench.

To make the spring flat on the end, progressive, or whatever you want, depends on the mandrel used in the coiling process. A spring manufacturer will have many mandrels (they're not expensive and they don't wear out). There is NO added cost from one style part or another, and they don't re-form a spring after it is made because it's a one-shot, single heat-treat, process. All the coil springs come off the mandrel uniform and perfectly formed.

It is just as easy and costs the same to make one type of coil spring as opposed to any other style.

Bob, I'm curious as to why you didn't send your 'wrong' springs back. Certainly, any reputable manufacturer will make good on a part that doesn't fit. Adding steel to the ends of springs is a poor substitute for a correctly made coil spring. If I may suggest, call Eaton; they want satisfied customers and will make whatever you need. If original specs say one thing and you need another, I'm sure they will make whatever you order without an argue-fest.

Dave Dare

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It is just as easy and costs the same to make one type of coil spring as opposed to any other style.

</div></div>

The top coil of the OEM springs are flattened and have less of a pitch so the bottom of the last coil actually touchs the top of the coil under it. This makes it "square" to the spring. The round bar stock would have to either be forged flat before winding or ground flat after. Any extra operation means extra cost. There just is no way around that.

The reason I didn't return the springs was because I ordered them early in the project. When they went in the bare frame with no engine or body weight they looked ok and were straight and centered in the spring pocket. With the weight of the engine and completed body compressing the springs the top of the spring wants to set flush against it's seat. The only way it can do that is to bow sideways to allow the lower side of the top coil to align itself "square". I did not notice that the springs were in fact bowed and rubbing the frame spring pocket until I was already using the car and two years had gone by. I thought I had somehow mis-installed them and removed them. Fortunately I still had the originals which measured about 3/8" shorter. The shop manual says it's OK to shim so I did and have no problems. Because of the elapsed time and because I didn't have the receipts and because I thought I'd run the OEM's awhile to make sure they would be OK I never did ask for my money back. Inertia and laziness also played a significant role.

Both of my Buicks, the Olds, and the 56 Chrysler front coils all have tapered and "squared" top coils. I would bet the farm that they are for a good reason.

Eaton's remark that "squaring up" is not necessary may be true to the extent that even if the springs are rubbing the frame they will still function. I personally found that situation also rubbed me. The wrong way.........Bob

[Guest simplyconnected]

<span style="color: #333399">Bob, this is for you:</span>

From: mike@eatonsprings.com

To: simplyconnected@aol.com

Sent: 3/2/2009 4:51:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time

Subj: 53 Buick coil springs

Dave,

Thanks for the e-mail and the link. We did not offer springs for the 46 to 53 Buicks because of the ground ends until a customer pleaded for a set of springs for his car. We had the cousin to the spring except it was not ground on the one end. He claimed it did not need to be ground. We sent it to him and he told us it worked fine. So based upon his response we send out the spring not ground.

Although this may not mean a thing to the guy who had the problem, we never have heard form anyone saying they have had a problem with the unground spring.

While we have over 24,000 prints does not mean we know how all 24,000 parts are mounted. We do respond to customers input.

You are correct our warranty is not on our website and I will see to it that is taken care of. Our website is undergoing a major change and it will be included. However our warranty is simple, provided we have been given to correct information the springs will work.

The gentleman said he lost his paperwork and I sure know how that happens, but in today's world of computers we can get customers orders going back 7 years in seconds. We will be glad to grind him a set if we know who he is.

we are not members of the board that the conversation has been taking place but I will get my gal to get us on it and I will respond.

And Thanks for the plug.

Thank You

Mike

Phone 1-313-963-3839

Fax 1-313-963-7047

www.eatonsprings.com

From: Simplyconnected@aol.com

To: sales@eatonsprings.com

Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:47 PM

Subject: '53 Buick 56C springs

I'm a member of Antique Auto Club of A, and it seems some members are confused about the correct spring application, and the way you manufacture coil springs for this car.

I know you don't open attachments, but you really need to see this link:

http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/topics/580517/Re_53_56C_Coil_Spring_Replacem#Post580517

My name on the AACA site is 'simplyconnected' and being a restorer (here in Royal Oak), I have always boasted about Eaton's products. I visited your site and was looking for information regarding your warranty, in case your springs don't work out in a particular application. I couldn't find any info on warranties.

Please review.

Dave Dare

(248) 544-8834

<span style="color: #333399">Get with Mike at Eaton, and he will make good on your purchase. I'm not surprised at Eaton's response. It is typical from all dealings my fellow restorer-buddies have had with them.

Dave</span>

[Bhigdog]

Hi Dave. I really appreciate your talking to Eaton on my behalf, and I have no doubt of Eaton's desire to be the best they can, but there's been a misunderstanding. I didn't buy my springs from Eaton. I thought that was understood when in my second post I said "I was told by others that Eaton's springs were not leveled at the top".

Meaning I had no first hand knowledge of their springs.

I will certainly not try to pass them off on Eaton for a refund or rework.

On the positive side you just may have solved the "unsquare" spring problem for future restorers. It sounds like Eaton can provide the properly reproed spring now.

Everyone should thank you for that.....Bob

[Guest simplyconnected]

I'm not looking for kudos, and I don't work for ANY spring company. I restore classic cars.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g-g-g0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone share their experience or thoughts on spring replacement. The ones on the car have settled down considerably and I plan to replace them...</div></div>

I put Gary in touch with a licensed original equipment manufacturer who has been doing this since the 1930's. If Eaton tends to be a little pricey, you can see why. They don't sell someone else's problems, but rather, they warranty what they make and sell with personal customer contact (if need be).

Gary, you can buy out of a parts book, but instead of buying two sets (and giving one set away), save yourself some money and speak with a real professional spring salesman who gurantees, his springs will work to your satisfaction.

Dave Dare

[g-g-g0]

Hey Guy's:

In my opinion this is what this forum is about. Putting various experiences in print to help people like myself make proper decisions in restoring a Buick. I really appreciate the input and hope every one is still on speaking terms!

Thanks,

Gary

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> hope every one is still on speaking terms!

</div></div>

Hell! Why wouldn't we be? Like you said, we share our experiances for the greater good and there are usually lots of of ways to skin any cat.........Bob

[Guest Eaton Springs]

To g-g-g0, Bhigdog, simplyconnected, old-tank and all others who have been watching this link, Thanks for the opportunity to clear the air about our springs. Trust me, we try to do the best that we can and we DO listen to customer input. This comapny has been making springs since 1937 and while we may not be perfect, we don't give up trying to be.

If anyone has any question feel free to contact me directly, mike@eatonsprings.com.