Pontiac joining us Oldsmobile owners!!

[Guest oldmobile1]

Sad, Pontiac will now join us Oldsmobile owners as orphan cars. I really hate to see this stuff. But they just didn't build a very exciting car for quite a few years. If they would have built a real GTO again, maybe??? Doug Caughey

[Guest BJM]

Doug,

Tough to say. These are unprecedented times in the automobile industry so trying to draw parallels is hard. 1st, most agree - especially on this forum - that ending Oldsmobiles was a bad bad idea. But GM has had a lot of bad ideas since it's glory days ended in the mid seventies. It had bad leadership form approximately 1976 on.

One could make the argument that Cadillac should be axed. Or Buick (and I am a Buick 1st fan) I would say Buick over Pontiac. Buick only has 3 cars right now and doesn't appear posied to add "niche" vehicles or "halo" cars.

At least Pontiac has halo cars with the Solstice convertible, the GTO previously and the new hot G8 sedan, which received great press.

At the root of the problem is that you can make just about any GM car, truck or SUV another GM car, truck, or SUV. Badge engineering and NOT distinct makes is what drove GM into the hole it's in now.

Oldsmobile was always GM's so-called engineering division. But they had some well styled cars that hit he mark in the marketplace. For years the Cutlass Supreme ruled as the #1 volume car in the US.

GM can take all of the Pontiac lineup - put Chevy bowties or Buick shields on them and instantly end the Pontiac franchise. At Oldsmobile's end, I believe the only unique Olds was the Aurora, and it used a Cadillac drivetrain but was distinctly Oldsmobile.

Everything else, like the Bravada, and the sedans were being made in Pontiac, GMC and Chevy guise already.

It's hard for me to be loyal to GM anymore, I own and drive a 2004 Pontiac Bonneville. The problem is the rear view mirror, where we see the great cars from true automobile leaders that would have rolled up their sleeves and stuck it to the Japanese with simply put - a better product. Now you get cheap hard plastic interiors and prices above what you'd pay for better engineering and design from Japan and Europe.

The Quad 4 was to me a big milestone for GM - Olds and Pontiac in particular. GM made a big deal about it at a time when the Japanese were yawning about it. An overhead cam engine? Yea so, Honda said - we have had these for years and are now in our 3rd generation.

The Quad 4 was a disaster - quality wise and therefore reputation wise - GM never recovered as buyers flocked in droves to the peppy Honda 2.2L 4 cylinder equipped Accords and 2.2L Camrys.

The 80's were still a time when GM made some decent looking cars and the Japanese had box on wheels styling. But the quality issues allowed the japanese just enough time that by the mid 90's they had caught up ad never looked back.

In my opinion (and I'm no expert) GM is going to have to shrink to the point where it makes no more then 2 million cars a year and live on that for a while. Most of those are going to be Chevy's and Cadillacs.

Each new car or truck introduction must be flawless and well executed. They can't afford a misstep. Kind of like the sports analogy where a skilled but not as talented basketball team beats a team of cocky talented players by perfect execution where one mistake could cost the loesser team the game.

GM needs to hire dreamers. Harley Earl hired talent then as his oft quoted phrase goes - he told them to "go all the way, then back off"

For years GM has been - to quote another sports phrase - played not to lose. Look where that has gotten them.

Finally, bring back the Motoramas. Seriously. If GM pulls a caravan into a town - like my town of Des Moines, Iowa that features some show cars, all the new models, and let's kids sit in the show cars - does all this wrapped in a local media blitz, has GMAC guys ready to write loans, strong local dealer involvement in the affair then what you have is seperation from the competition.

Killing Pontiac is a bad idea. Pontiac is part of a new GM marketing strategy of combining makes into Pontiac-Buick-GMC. Frankly I applauded this move. Keep your price points tight, and you basically have a Chevy-Buick-GMC dealership in terms of costing/pricing.

[oldohioan]

I wonder if much of the last 30 years could have been avoided if the unions hadnt been so greedy and driven the price of cars up so much to pay for all the benefits?? (Designs by the bean counters instead of engineers didnt help either)

True things are not fixed by these easy simple answers but maybe if prices were more reasonable and designs more acceptable, more people would buy... ??

[joe_padavano]

The real question is, why does the mass media continue to get these stories wrong - and why do you believe them? GM is NOT currently planning on dumping Pontiac. They ARE dumping Hummer, Saab, and Saturn. The plan in the restructure documents is to downsize Pontiac to a performance "boutique" division. To me, that's not necessarily a bad thing. More turbo Solstice and G8 cars and no rebadged Cavaliers.

[Guest BJM]

oldohioan

My position on the unions is they feasted during the glory days and now they need to help during the bad times. Executive salaries need limited as both a practical and public relations ploy. But also the unions need to be more proactive in costs reductions and plant management.

[Guest will62super88]

I don't know much but where I live u can get a Ford with all the bells and whistle's for the same price as a STOCK GM!!! Hu, wonder what I'm going to do. The only GM vehicle's I'm buyin are the Older one's.

62 Olds

70 Monte Carlo

90 Silverado

And 2 New Ford's

[poci1957]

BJM, I agree with lots of your points above, see my similar remarks in the Pontiac post on the General forum.

I was watching a few old car videos over the weekend and thought of the genius of the system in the Harley Earl days. A Motorama would be great IF the product was interesting enough to justify the hype. Having hype over boring products has been done enough.

IMO even some badge engineering and powertrain sharing could be acceptable if the product is exciting enough. The GTO is a perfect example. I drove a 2004 automatic and thought the performance was better than any car I had ever driven to date, a fantastic driving performance car. But as far as styling I said at the time you would spend $30,000 and your neighbors would think you bought a five year old Grand Prix. Not exactly a marketing bullseye. Then look at the new Dodge Challenger. It is essentially a shortened Charger underneath but that body knocks them dead.

No, we NEED the new Harley Earl, if it is only possible in today's climate. Even Earl had body sharing but he made it work. And he was a strong enough corporate infighter to resist bean counters from interfering with his designs AND he had consistent and appealling division identities. It was a brilliant system and it worked great.

[Ron of Chicago]

oldohioan, greed of the unions (and far to many more, like the politicians) is exactly where the prblem lies.

BJM, I agree, but that will hardly ever happen because they don't care.

I went to the Chicago Auto Show when it first opened and the futuristic cars like they used to have are no longer. There is no more flash at these shows to get people excited.