Guest Bobby Valines Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Yesterday I'm driving to work going about 50 mph. when a 97 yo. driver just pulled right out in front of me.( My yellow break light has been on scene I bought the car 8 month ago, but the car seems to stop fine.) I pushed on the break pedal as hard as I could, thinking it would lock the wheels, the car stopped nice and straight, a quick stop, but the red light went on just while I was making that emergency stop and the peddle quit going down and did not lock up. What would cause the red light to go on and the peddle to get hard and stop going any farther in not to lock up the wheels? Thank you for any input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Teeves classic low pump pressure. Those warning lights are telling you the truth. Better get if fixed before someone gets killed.Steak, where are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawja Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Most likely your accumulator is due for replacement, but like simply said, it's best practice to have a fully functioning system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Bobby, go here, scroll to the middle of the page and take the Reatta.net brake test. It will help determine your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 I'm here! Racking up 200 miles a day in the Bushmobile with the yellow light glowing not from a malfunction but a reminder of an expensive headache out of my life and also not to tailgate especially in less-than-ideal-traction situations. Vac rules! Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Just a comment: the first convert (which was otherwise in better shape than the one I bought) had the yellow light on constantly and the ABS computer unresponsive. The owner did not agree when I marked down my offer by the cost of a rebuilt Teeves.The problem is that when the yellow light has been on for a long time and it does not pass the "thump" test, the ABS valves have not been exercised, perhaps for years, and the system is unlikely to have been flushed or even to have had the resovoir drained and refilled. People just don't.In that case I would not know if it is even safe to reconnect the Teeves since a main valve sticking could be catastrophic.Of all the systems in a car that you must be able to trust, the brakes are at the top of the list.ps if the pedal goes to the floor either there is air in the lines and it needs bleeding or there is an internal leak somewhere. Either needs to be attended to. Red light on (which should turn the yellow on also, if it is not, look to the parking brake switch) indicates low pressure and not a fluid leak. If both are happening you probably have two issues to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 By "lock up" I guess you mean "stop". Normally you would not want the brakes to lock up but since you have been driving without ABS (yellow light), you might experience lockup under emergency braking. If that is the only issue, you can drive accordingly (carefully). But if the red light comes on, and its not one of the two minor issues that will trigger it, or if you notice a loss of assist (hard pedal and negligible stopping power), then that is another story. You have a low-pressure situation. If it is momentary, it is more than likely a spent accumulator not storing enough pressure causing the assist to rely on the pump coming on more frequently. Try to find a good used one first. Don't forget to depressurize before you remove it. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobby Valines Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 By lock up I mean the tires quit turning and screech, as hard as I jammed on the pedal it didn't do that. It did stop OK otherwise I would be replacing the front end right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Did the assist return for a normal stop? If it did then I would bet it is the accumulator. I gave away the one I had but they are available in junk yards on several different cars including non-GM. New ones are $115. Take the brake test to be sure. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobby Valines Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Steak you put a vacuum assist regular brake system in your car? What year and make car would you sagest to get one out of. I'm mot sure i want to spend all that time and money trying to fix this teeves system, they seem very complicated. The one and only time I worked on a abs system was a 93 cutlass, after I took it apart and the springs and balls fell all over I went to a junk yard and bought one for $100.00 put it in and it worked good. I have been driving 35 years and most of the cars I have had throughout the years did not have abs, haven't killed any one yet. Would greatly appreciate any help you or anyone could give me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Have not done it but suggest looking at a 78-79 Firebird WS6 braking system. Most modern systems have four lines, one to each brake but in the late '70s there were just three like the Teeves. Also I would use one of the small diameter boosters. Reason GM went to the electric pump Teeves (and their own "Hydro-Boost" which is similar but operates at a much lower pressure) was the expectation when it was designed that by the late 80's most engines would be Diesel (hold an 88 cluster to the light and you can see "Diesel Fuel Only")and not have any vaccuum.GM fixed that with the 350 and many stranded Cadillacs and the US market still has not recovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 I wouldn't think about converting until I had thrown some used parts at the problem, starting with the accumulator. The brake test and the FSM are helpful at narrowing down the problem, although the FSM is quick to have you buy a $2400 new unit. Definetly try the accumulator swap. They seem to be what goes first and your momentary low-pressure problem points to it. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Just be aware that the braking system can be divided into two major pieces: boost (red light) and ABS (yellow light).While low boost will cause both lights to come on, it sounds like you have problems in both systems.Unless this is going to be a show car, how you repair it depends on your skill and what is in your garage. Just be aware that any non-stock change may decrease the value of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 It actually takes less skill/money to convert it in the long run than trying to get a definitive diagnosis/repair of this electro/hydraulic contraption due to the possibly of repeated issues with it. But if you have the patience and don't need the car for awhile I recommend some attempt to repair the Teves. It requires the aquisition of knowledge that is not transferable to very many other cars, creating more reluctance to spend an exorbitant amount of time learning about it. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 If a person has the mechanical skills and tools to change over to the vacuum boost system I believe that is a great option. It is what I will probably do if repairing my Teves system gets very expensive. However, if someone took their car to a reputable mechanic, the mechanic may not want to do the changeover due to liability issues. I know I wouldn't do it for anyone else unless I knew them really well and they full understood what was involved. I'm almost certain a dealership would not touch the changeover with a ten foot pole. What would help us all who would like to do the changeover, is a good step by step tutorial on how to do the changeover from start to finish, beginning with a detailed parts list of exactly what is needed to do the job, and detailed instructions on how to install them (photos would be great). For my use, a changeover that does not include a working ABS system would not matter, but having vacuum boost with a working ABS system would be icing on the cake.I believe Steak and Daniel both made the changeover. Although they went about it using parts from different cars both seemed to be a success. If either of you would please take the time to write up a tutorial on how to do the changeover I know everyone here would appreciate it. I certainly would and I would be more than happy to add it to my website to make it easy for everyone to find. I'm not sure who the webmaster is for Reatta.net but I bet they welcome it as an addition to their website also.As stated before, it is important to consider how the changeover would effect the value of the car. In my case my car has a spoiler on the trunk lid and a few minor modifications done to it so I don't believe the changeover would really hurt it's value and it might even add to the value for a buyer who knows the cars and wants a reliable daily driver. For those who have the really nice low mileage cars it would probably hurt the value of their cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 I'm not the person to do the tutorial. I used a unit that wasn't the best fit. Daniel and 7654321 used better units. They didn't go into much detail about what they ran into. Someone else was contemplating a conversion on a '89 Park Avenue claiming that they came with both Teves ABS and without, suggesting that the Park Avenue unit might be the 3-port red herring exact replacement. If that was the case, a tutorial would not be required. Only a simple R&R. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobby Valines Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Went to the junk yard today seen a TA like smokey and the bandit car it had a smaller booster but the master cylinder had only two outlets. I also seen a few other GM cars with smaller booster they had 4 outlets. Didn't buy anything wanted to check with you people first. Glad I waited Steak just answered my question about the park ave. I'm going to try a different yard this one is picked over bad. Ill keep notes and pic. to help with a tutorial after its all said and done. I would like to thank you for all the help Your making this a lot easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Back in the daywhen dual master cyls first came out ('67?) there were two outputs (dual) one for the front brakes and another for the rear. These two lines went to the proportioning valve which sensed the balance of pressure in each amd turned on a light if they didn't. The propotioning valve then split into the two front brakes on one circuit and the single line to the rear which split at the rear axle. This meant that only one line had to run from front to rear just like in the single M/C days.Am not sure exacly when, but sometime in th '80s, GM started running two lines to the rear, one to each brake. However the Teves is designed like the older units with one line to the rear.I have seen a converted Reatta that had a four outlet M/C with one capped off. Do not know if that worked but it should.If I were to do it (unlikely since I have a spare Teeves), I'd probably use one of the late reduced diameter, dual diaphram boosters, with a 78 Trans Am WS6 (4 wheel disks) master cylinder, and an adjustable proportioning valve for a Corvette.Might not be the cheapest way to go but would work with the existing lines and could adjust the balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 You don't need a proportioning valve if all your wheels have drum brakes, or all your wheels have disk brakes. Only when you have a mix of drum/disk, do you need a proportioning valve.I have one of those 4-port GM M/C's. The back two ports are ported together, and the front two are ported together. Since only one line goes to the back, (and splits at the axle tee), the other rear M/C port is plugged. Of course, both front ports are plumbed to each front brake cylinder (no need for a front tee).Here's the name of a company that makes good, inexpensive, two-stage power boosters: M/C and 8" dual diaphram booster kit for GM MBM 7" Dual Diaphram BoosterI picked these as examples. Call the company for specifics. Their factory is here in the good ol USA. For retail sales, I got a NEW GM M/C/booster for under $300 through eBay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am not sure exacly when, but sometime in th '80s, GM started running two lines to the rear, one to each brake.</div></div>The reason for the four individual lines could be when diagonal braking started. Half the master cylinder operates the left front / right rear brakes and the other half operates the right front / left rear brakes. Provides more consistent stopping power than rear only brakes in the event of partial failure of the master cylinder and it still stops straight. I'm not sure which cars were designed that way but it appears the Reatta was not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Ronnie, I believe that set-up caused cars to spin because of the gross un-balanced weight transfer. That's why they went to fronts/rears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 You could be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 I shudder to think of what would happen if only one of the front wheels was braking. Terminal pull ?BTW I can't think of a road racing car I have driven that did not have an adjustable proportioning valve - ones I am familiar with were designed for SCCA Corvettes (4 wheel disks).In a hard braking situation (such as when entering a turn to begin weight transfer - originally known as "late braking" - the bulk of the weight was on the front tires, without proportioning, the unloaded rears would lock and things would get interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Proportioning valves are USUALLY not adjustable. But, hey! Summit has a good one for under $39: Summit brand adjustable proportioning valveI don't know why a family car would need adjustable, usually hot rod guys need them because of drastic disproportions in their geometry/tire sizes/weight transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 I have one of those diagonal flow master cylinders on the Bushmobile (from a '90 Riv). It is something to avoid because I couldn't plug the unneeded second rear port because doing so would have one front wheel sharing a chamber with a rear wheel and the other wouldn't causing a differential on the front which I did not want. So I had to run another rear line (which was not the cleanest-looking job I've ever done). This particular m/c had proportioning valves attached (it's in the Reatta FSM!) so I had to remove the stock one which I had previusly removed anyway to replace the rusty lines. I wish someone would get a hold of the Park Avenue unit to know if that is "the one" and put an end to this trial-and error. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobby Valines Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Steak do you know if the 89 Park Ave. is the only year I should look for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 If you go to autopartswarehouse.com or probably most any parts site and look up the specific part you are looking for, it usually has all the applications. Don't get one unless it has three ports! Don't forget you also need the vac booster. Since you live in FL it probably is more feasable to scour a junkyard in Dec than it is here. Hopefully you can find one where the seat is all the way back. Better take a jump box just in case. Take a 10mm deep, a 15mm deep, a u-joint, a footlong ext, and something to cut the brake lines (so you get the nipples). Good hunting. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobby Valines Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Went to 3 junkyards yesterday Could not find a master cylinder with three outlets. I seen some 90 Cadillac with the same break system we have. I came home and looked up a 89 park av. and seen that it has 4 outlets. Now I'm thinking I should go with the 78 79 firebird ws6 like Padgett suggested. I seen a nice one last weekend but didn't get it and its gone now. Another question I have does the donor car have to be 4 wheel disk breaks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Sorry for the Park Avenue boondoggle. I can't understand why a model that had the Teves as an option would be so different. The replacement doesn't have to be a 4 wheel disk unit because the Reatta has a proportioning valve for the rears. If you can't find a 3-port then the next best thing is a 2-port. Then you must get a splitter T for the fronts. That Firebird unit sounds kind of old which could lead to issues like the studs not lining up with the firewall holes or the pushrod being the wrong length. Also plan on redoing flares and searching for T connectors. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Hey guys, Read this page before jumping in and trying to mix and match disc and non-disc brake system parts. It might save you some grief in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawja Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 You're better off repairing and then taking proper care of the Teves system IMO.You're talking about a lot of effort to eliminate what has become a universal safety feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 I read the link and still believe that a disk/drum unit would be okay for a 4 disk application. But not vice-versa. Let's say that the conversion m/c puts out equal pressure to both front and rear circuits. The rear requires less which would be handled by the Reatta prop valve. You won't have the warning light anymore but the loss of a circuit is instantly noticed by the loss of half your pedal. You still have some brakes and a lot more than you do with a Teves low-pressure issue because you still have assist. I would still consider trying a new accumulator before jumping feet first into a conversion due to the Park Avenue disapointment. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Hate to repeat myself but if the Teeves has been out of commission for a long time, flush the system (good idea anyway) and be careful to exercise it in a safe environment (e.g. big enpty parking lot) before expecting it to work properly.Also one thing the very good writeup left out is that some drum brake master cylinders had a check valve in the outlet to maintain a slight pressure in the line. With a disk brake, this check valve needs to be removed. I have popped them out with an awl before.If given a choice, I agree, keep a good working Teeves but understand that sometimes we do not have a choice, have seen several in junkyards with conventional power brakes (whether there is a relationship between the brake change and being in the recycling center, I do not know.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Did you say that you have seen converted Reattas in a junk yard? If so, were any of them clean conversions, possibly using a 3 port m/c? If so I would grab that unit and find out what it came from. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobby Valines Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Out of the three yards I have been in I have not seen one three port master cylinder, must have looked at say 500 GM. cars. I want to thank you people for all the help, sure are making it a lot easier letting me pick your minds. Ill wait till next weekend and start on my quest again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 I believe you are searching for something that you don't really need. What it seems you really need is a two port master cylinder and a matching three port combo valve. They should be plentiful. Three combo valves came on a lot of cars. They have two inlet connections to the front and rear portions of the master cylinder and two outlet ports for the front of the car and one outlet port for the rear. (see photo below)That is what I will be the system I will be looking for if I ever need to do the changeover from the TEVES system. I intend to add an adjustable proportioning valve between the combo valve and the rear brakes when I install the system. I intend to do one of the brake upgrades at the same time and the adjustable proportioning valve will come in handy for fine tuning. I will probably remove the stock proportioning valve on the rear and replace it with a tee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 I'm beginning to believe that 3-port master cylinders do not exist. I wonder if someone could contact a company like Prior to see if they have ever heard of one. That gizmo that Ronnie displayed could serve the purpose of turning 2 lines into 3 and you would also have a low-pressure light (if you can figure out how to hook it up) but the prop valve is a waste because you already have one. Replacing the stock one with a T would be difficult because it's hard to get to and the lines have been on there for 20 years. Maybe you can find one without the prop valve. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 That gizmo, as you call it, was a stock item on 67-81 model Cameros that had front disc and rear drum brakes. The adjustable proportioning valve might be needed to get the correct front versus rear braking power due to adding it the Reatta that has disc brakes all the way around. Below is a photo of a stock Camero combo valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Is why I mentioned the 78-79 WS6 Trans Am - they had 4 wheel disks.And the M/C has two outlets, the three come from the distribution valve (or could just add a Tee but would not be how the factory did it and would not have a brake warning light.BTW if you study the Teeves you find that the m/c piston does not apply the rear brakes at all, they just sort of happen automagically because of pressure on the pedal (and if the boost fails you have fronts only). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Daniel used a later year 2-port m/c from a Camaro I believe. Don't know what kind of grief he ran into. Not lining up with the firewall holes or a different length non-adjustable pushrod would be red flags. The 2-port '91 Reatta, Riv, Eldo, Seville, Toronado unit sounds like the closest match so far. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now