stuck carb float

[tbirdman]

Took my 32 out for its maiden trip today. Fr some reason the carb float stuck. I got it towed home which was only about 1/4 mile away as I didn't get too far before this issue happened. I stalled at a light, I opened the hood and had gas flowing from the top of the carb.

I have ran the car for a long times in the garage the last couple of weeks prior to drivingit this morning. I had no carb issues. Am I correct that if a float sticks when you're driving on the road, I should had seen the problem when I was running the car in the garage.

What's the basic repair method fof a float that is sticking?

[mrpushbutton]

Take the carb apart and fix it. You have to remove the airhorn from the bowl. What you may find is a thickness of green-yellow goo in the bottom of your carb bowl that the float is mired in (stuck in). It's a good idea to contact then-now automotive and get a carb kit ordered. There may be a mechanical reason for the float sticking, like the floats coming unsoldered from the mount-arms, a hole in the float, such that is now a "sink", or the needle and seat having some sort of interference going on.

Get the carb kit now, save yourself the downtime. At the very least you will need a new airhorn gasket, which you could just hand cut.

When you ran the engine in the garage you probably did not run it at the rpms you would during driving, and not at thse rpms for as long, which would not empty the bowl as much. I have seen several cars where the float gets mired in gummy stuff in the bottom of the carb bowl.

[tbirdman]

Well it was very much simpler than most would imagine. The pivot rod for the float was no longer in the carb. Not sure if it dropped out while I was handling it. Looks like one could be made very easily or I need to find a place to order this part for a detroit lubricator.

The bowl was clean as a whistle.

[mrpushbutton]

Yeah, that's why I cited the "mechanical reason" clause. I have had the sticky goo problem on several cars though, but perhaps that's more a symptom of a car in a large collection where there is rarely enough time to lavish on each car. A one car/owner situation is much better for the car, and that car gets driven more often, which is good for the car!

[tbirdman]

I just need to figure out where to buy that pivot pin. Looking at previous pictures of the car, it appears perhaps that there was never a pivot pin install. I definitey know when I went to install the top plate this winter, there was no pivot pin because I have up close pictures of the bowl where one end of the pin would have exited.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Ken,

There are brass rod and wire in various sizes, simalar to what you need. I have many sizes that I use in my ship models and in braz-welding. You may be able to take the float to a hardware or hobby store and find some the correct size. Stainless steel rod would be better but I think brass rod would work fine.

A welding supply will have stainless and brass, but not sure if it would be the correct size. Will have to trial fit them.

As long it fits without much sideways movement (too loose) and does not bind in the pivot holes, it should work great.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ken,

There are brass rod and wire in various sizes, simalar to what you need. I have many sizes that I use in my ship models and in braz-welding. You may be able to take the float to a hardware or hobby store and find some the correct size. Stainless steel rod would be better but I think brass rod would work fine.

A welding supply will have stainless and brass, but not sure if it would be the correct size. Will have to trial fit them.

As long it fits without much sideways movement (too loose) and does not bind in the pivot holes, it should work great.

</div></div>

Looking at Tom's carb as a reference, I see the pivot pin. I'm not sure how that pin is mounted and then secured in the bowl. It should be easier to find some rod to fit, but I'm unclear once I found the correct size rod, how to install and then secure.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Does the divider-wall (at center of front wall of bowl) have a hole thru it, that the pin slides thru? Looks like that would be the only logical option?

It may be that one of the screws that holds the cover on also holds the float-pin in place, since it looks like it's directly above it?

Sorry I don't have a carb like that one to check.

[carbking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ken,

There are brass rod and wire in various sizes, simalar to what you need. I have many sizes that I use in my ship models and in braz-welding. You may be able to take the float to a hardware or hobby store and find some the correct size. Stainless steel rod would be better but I think brass rod would work fine.

A welding supply will have stainless and brass, but not sure if it would be the correct size. Will have to trial fit them.

As long it fits without much sideways movement (too loose) and does not bind in the pivot holes, it should work great.

</div></div>

Looking at Tom's carb as a reference, I see the pivot pin. I'm not sure how that pin is mounted and then secured in the bowl. It should be easier to find some rod to fit, but I'm unclear once I found the correct size rod, how to install and then secure. </div></div>

The float pin is inserted through the small hole in the side of the bowl, then through the float arm, and into the blind hole in the bowl divider. Note that the pin is of length to just past through the threaded area of the hole for the bowl cover retaining screw, but not fall loose into the bowl. This screw is slighly longer than the other bowl cover screws, and once installed, this bowl cover screw prevents the float pin from exiting the carburetor. The two pivot areas of the pin are the hole in the threaded area of the side of the bowl (outside) and the blind hole in the bowl divider (inside).

Going from memory (not as good as it once was), the pin diameter is about .081 inch; but measure, as not sure, and too lazy to take apart one of ours.

Jon.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Thanks Jon,

If the pin is inserted thru the outside wall, what keeps the gasoline from leaking out that hole? Is it the screw sealing the taped hole only, or is the pin also pressed into the wall of bowl?

If it's the screw only that seals it, should a thread sealer be applied to the cover screw threads or is that not necessary?

[carbking]

The fuel level in the bowl should not be of sufficient height to leak out of the hole.

Jon.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Even tho it is a very small hole, I think I would put a little non-hardening sealer down in the screw hole for Insurance.

That would also prevent the pin from falling out, the next time the cover was taken off.

[tbirdman]

Jon,

What a great memory. Using drill bits I was able to determine that the size was somewhere between .073 and .078

.078 was too large. I ah also never thought of the screw holding the pin, but your right it does.

Thnaks for the help. Hopefully I get the pin today and reinstall the carb. Since it will be in the 70s and sunny today, it will be a great day to get towed if something else goes wrong:)

[carbking]

Rick - in the "for what its worth" category, the only sealers permitted in our shop for carburetor repair are blue locktite to seal throttle plate screws, and POR-15 to seal the foam replacements we use to replace cork floats on carburetors that used cork floats.

Our experience with the float pin is that it will not only not come out of its own accord; normally a pair of needle-nosed vise-grips (which of course destroys the pin, and why I think I remember the diameter from making so many) is necessary to pull the pin.

Others may have differing opinions/experiences.

Jon.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I understand your reason for not using sealers, since they always tend to get into places that they shouldn't, but I suggested it since Ken's Did fall out and was lost, so it must happen sometime. I suppose it depends on how tight the pin fits into the hole, as to wheather it would need anything to seal and hold it in. It's possible that someone had to drill out the pin, to remove it previously, and enlarged the hole in bowl wall.

[tbirdman]

Well I think the reason the pin might had fallen out is because the slightly longer screw that was suggested, was not there. Not sure if this was was all self-inflicted from the last time I took aprt the carb to replace the bowl plate.

It is a reproduction brass bowl so not sure if the hole would have been drill accurately. I did find a .072 stainless hitch pin which I used the straight edge to make a pin. The screw with the lock washer I have in there now should be enough to hold that pin in place though some blue loctight might add some security.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Using the cover screw to hold in the pin was a Good engineering design, but If you don't know about it it's one of the hidden things that can 'Bite Ya'.

After you get it all put back together you'll probably find the original pin laying on the workbench somewhere. That's the way it always happens to me.

[tbirdman]

So I fixed the float problem. OK, now the car seem to have no power when I took it out out fora test drive. When you step on the accelerator the car stumbles. It does not gain any power if you back off or if you just wait. This happens at cold and warm.

The timing looks on. The car is not running hot.

Ideas? Yesterday it seem to run OK but I didn't push it much going down the hill. But I didn't detect any stumling yesterday on the very short drive.

[tbirdman]

Looks like the electric fuel pump gave up the ghost. It sounds pretty sick. I think that may be my first move.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Could the carb Float level be adjusted too Low, now?

Or the float valve Not opening, all the way, for some reason?

The pump may sound different due to the back pressure of the float valve being closed.

[mrpushbutton]

Is the electric pump making a "hammering" sound?

[tbirdman]

Not sure what you would call it but instead of the pump sounds, it's different. Plus it won't shut off.

[mrpushbutton]

Well, generally--when you are about to run out of gas an electric pump will start making a hard hammering sound.

[tbirdman]

Well, I got gas in the car. Just to make sure I added about 2 more gallons before I took off for the test ride yesterday. However I will double check today when I get home tonight.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrpushbutton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, generally--when you are about to run out of gas an electric pump will start making a hard hammering sound. </div></div>

Well you guess it. Stuck in 4 gallons more of gas and the hammering sound quit. However still have the lack of power I need to trouble shoot now.

[tbirdman]

Well I adjusted the timing and got what I think all the power back. I tokk it up a 14 degree hill by my house without a miss or stumble so that's a good sign. Tommorrow I will return the fuel pump. Thanks MR Pushbutton!

Still not sure it's running right, but I need to take it on a longer drive. Also stuck some STP in it just in case I had some water in the fuel.

[tbirdman]

Looking for info on how to adjust the carb. Can't find any info anywhere in the shop manuals.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Hey Ken,

The only adjustment on that carb, I think, is the metering valve at the bottom of the throat. According to my manual (for the 733, same carb as yours), you tighten it down until the engine starts to stumble, then slowly open to the point were it is running smoothly. If you have a vacuum gauge that you can hook up to the intake manifold you can do the slow unscrewing until vacuum is maximum.

The float is adjusted by bending the connecting tab either up (for a higher float level) or down.

Cheers,

Tom

[carbking]

Tom, and Ken - while the float was designed to be adjusted as Tom suggests; another way that does not cause possible damage to a very expensive float is to change the thickness of the gasket(s) between the fuel valve seat and the bowl.

Jon.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Jon,

Great idea. I wish I had thought of that! However, that won't work if the problem is carb flooding due to too high a float setting and you already have a pretty thin gasket. Any suggestions for that scenario?

Thanks,

Tom

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Ken,

The only adjustment on that carb, I think, is the metering valve at the bottom of the throat. According to my manual (for the 733, same carb as yours), you tighten it down until the engine starts to stumble, then slowly open to the point were it is running smoothly. If you have a vacuum gauge that you can hook up to the intake manifold you can do the slow unscrewing until vacuum is maximum.

The float is adjusted by bending the connecting tab either up (for a higher float level) or down.

Cheers,

Tom </div></div>

Tom,

What manual do you have? Nothing that I have indicated anything like that. In factthe Packard manuals I have all seem to be sketchy on details.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: carbking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tom, and Ken - while the float was designed to be adjusted as Tom suggests; another way that does not cause possible damage to a very expensive float is to change the thickness of the gasket(s) between the fuel valve seat and the bowl.

Jon. </div></div>

Good advice. I don't think I'll be messing with the float as it ran fine last year and seems to be doing OK this year. Took it out for about a 60-75 mile spin today. Went to two cars cruise ins today. Was lucky that I hit the snooze button this morning. Went to the first car show and was waiting in line. It wasn't moving. Found out the problem was that a late 50s Ford Victoria had a stuck throttle. Slammed into a 60s vette and then a junkyard Volvo. The Ford had to be towed. The vette looked sad with its fiberglass side all crunched. 10 minutes earlier, and I might had been the vette. The guy must had panic as the tire marks looked looked like a K-turn in the street.

[carbking]

Tom - it would still be possible to adjust without bending the float, if one were SURE that the fuel valve was the correct one, and that the float had been significantly bent in the past.

Possibilities:

(A) thinner gasket (rubberized aluminum from modern carb)

( insert fuel valve seat in lathe, and remove a few thousands.

Jon.

[Clipper47]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman

Jon. [/quote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Found out the problem was that a late 50s Ford Victoria had a stuck throttle. Slammed into a 60s vette and then a junkyard Volvo. The Ford had to be towed. The vette looked sad with its fiberglass side all crunched. 10 minutes earlier, and I might had been the vette. The guy must had panic as the tire marks looked looked like a K-turn in the street. </div></div>

How did the "junkyard Volvo" make out? Probably better than the Vette

[34PackardRoadsta]

Ken,

Here is a copy of my owner's manual. See the carb section.

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/article/view.article.php?165

Cheers,

Tom

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clipper47</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman

Jon. </div></div>

Found out the problem was that a late 50s Ford Victoria had a stuck throttle. Slammed into a 60s vette and then a junkyard Volvo. The Ford had to be towed. The vette looked sad with its fiberglass side all crunched. 10 minutes earlier, and I might had been the vette. The guy must had panic as the tire marks looked looked like a K-turn in the street. [/quote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

How did the "junkyard Volvo" make out? Probably better than the Vette </div></div>

The volve had it front corner hit. No disrespect to the Junkard Volvo, but I don'tthink it was even there for the cruise, but just parked by some unlucky resident.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ken,

Here is a copy of my owner's manual. See the carb section.

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/article/view.article.php?165

Cheers,

Tom </div></div>

Thanks. The owners manual for 32 is devoid of any useful information like this. It would be handy of a 32 manual existed.

Ken

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you tighten it down until the engine starts to stumble, then slowly open to the point were it is running smoothly. If you have a vacuum gauge that you can hook up to the intake manifold you can do the slow unscrewing until vacuum is maximum. </div></div>

I'm curious since I've never adjusted that type carb.

Can you do this adjustment with it at Idle and still have enough gas flow for driving power, Or do you need to adjust it with engine at a Higher RPM, to get good results over the complete RPM range?

It seems to me that if it's adjusted at Idle, the mixture may be too lean at higher RPMs, causing a loss of power and maybe burnt valves ???

Earlier carbs like in my '29s, that didn't have that adjustment, run way too rich at idle, since they need the extra gas at higher RPMs.

So those carbs (type 51) probably need to be adjusted so they run Rich at Idle, also?

[carbking]

Two issues when adjusting the Detroit Lubricator type 51 carburetor as used by Packard:

(1) The fingers of the vanes, and the groove in the aspirator valve wear. A competant restorer will either replace the vanes and aspirator valve during restoration, or will metal spray the wear on the fingers and groove, and remachine to standard specifications. Failure to account for the wear in these areas will upset the geometry of the variable venturi principle, and throw off the calibration at one end of the RPM range or the other.

(2) Automatic carburetors such as the Detroit type 51 were factory calibrated for the use of gasoline, with an energy content of 117,600 BTU/gallon. The use of deathanol, regardless of what your government official may tell you, will upset the calibration. Since the calibration is controlled by a tensioned spring; no complete readjustment is possible unless you have access to a spring-winding machine and a chassis dyno. GENERALLY, the Detroit can be set slightly rich on the high RPM end, and will still run, albeit poorly at idle, with E10. Many of our customers have reported issues with E15, and end up replacing the carburetor! This also is true with other automatic carburetors such as the Schebler models R and S.

Jon.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: carbking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> will metal spray the wear on the fingers and groove, and remachine to standard specifications. </div></div>

Jon,

Are you talking about electro-plating there, such as Nickel or Cad plating, or are you talking about some other process ???

If you're Not refering to plating, Would having them plated help?