Hydro Assist Fuel Cell

[Guest EDBS0]

Tammy; I want this to work, am ready to buy some DIY parts BUT as I rest my weary bones in Burlington Vermont ready to depart to North Conway NH tomorrow I am less enthusiastic.

It takes more energy to make the gas H2 O from electrolysis than you get from "burning" "it" BUMMER. I want real numbers.

Did she use her "fingers and toes" when she calculated her mpgs?

[Guest Tammy]

Gee if we could have a toilet in our car, every woman out there would get one. No more disgusting wayside stops. No more waiting in line to use the same toilet that half a million other people have used. And for those who can't make it to the "building", no more headlights and stares as we use the nearest tree or cornfield.

All kidding aside, I'm told her van is getting rid of the built up carbon so this has made her water get cloudy. So they were "flushing" it out. I asked if it was just the component which housed the water or the whole system. She did not know. Like I said, I don't believe she is the one to talk to. Not to say anything about us ladies out here...but this is over my head. I am wanting to understand this. IT IS DRIVING ME CRAZY. And now my husband has heard enough! I value each and everyone here on this forum. You cannot even begin to understand how much you all mean to me. Which makes this ~^** on me. I made my science/math teacher husband sit down and read some of this. Yes I made him! He didn't read much. He understands that this is possible, but not understanding just how the system separates things and it seems to always come down to the water. He thought they needed to use a more scientific terms/words and explanations.

I may see this system on her van tomorrow. What good will this do me? I know it's there. I know she don't have a pot to p*** in or a window to throw it out of. So if it didn't work why would she keep it?

I wish I had numbers for you Robert It would be easier on me if I just said "NOPE, IT'S NOT POSSIBLE, THIS DOESN'T WORK" like so many others. How many of you interested have emailed or called this Dave Kosak? I listed both before. You could even call Ron Austin of Extreme Wheels. He is the trained mechanic in Reedsburg that is doing the installs. (608)524-9997

I believe in all of you, and I wish I could translate all this better. The whole 100% guarantee just sticks with me. If it doesn't work, why keep it?

I'm sorry if I have frustrated any of you.~Tammy

[Guest MauiWowee]

Tammy, I think that especially in these days of historically high gas prices we would all like for something like this to be real. The problem is that the automobile has always been fertile grounds for snake oil salesmen, hucksters, and urban myths. One that hasn't been mentioned is the 100 MPG carb that the inventor was paid a tidy sum for by GM so they could keep it a secret. I would love to find a device like the Hydro assist fuel cell that delivers as promised and does no harm to my car, but I drove through Missouri last week, and need for someone to "show me" the proof.

Nothing personal.

[Guest hobbyman]

I don't post here much, I just like reading what people are doing with their cars. Having said that, Tammy, I have a 100% guarentee for you. I 100% guarentee that you will get something which doesn't DO anything and also that you will 100% NOT get any money back. I wish I could count the number of BS products that are listed as the answer to HIGH fuel costs. The flamethrower spark plugs, the turbonator that "SPINS the air into your engine and boosts gas mileage by 20%, The oil additives that make your engine more efficient. As someone here said, IF ANY of these things worked, don't you think that the big three which have suffered HUGH losses over the past thiry years would be putting these things in their cars and engines? They aren't, not because they don't want you to have them, they aren't using them because THEY DON"T WORK. There just isn't some HUGE conspiricy to prevent us from getting good gas mileage. There is NO MAGIC INVOLVED HERE, and that's what would be required in order for this to work. Most people that buy this stuff won't tell because they are to embarassed to admit they wasted their money.

Bill

[55chevy]

Yet one more website, this guy sells installation manuals to do it yourself for $90, a buddy at work and I are thinking of buying one.

http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=hydropal

[sahein]

http://www.nano.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108

http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2005/020905/Nanotubes_crank_out_hydrogen_Brief_020905.html

http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn12946-cheap-hydrogen-power-gets-a-nanotube-boost-.html

http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2005/IPNS050513.html

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0957-4484/19/7/075707

[Guest Squire Tom]

the last time anyone got something for nothing - their hospitalization didnt cover it.

you can't fool mother nature - mileage depends on vehicle weight ,aerodynamics , and speed. thats why you get better mileage at 55 with an overdrive gear than you do at 35 in third gear ( did she say V A N ) ? did someone say 60+mpg?

reminds me of the story where some guys kept putting fuel in a volkswagen without the owner knowing - he was raving about his bug gas mileage , ... then they began siphoning it out without his knowledge haha

[rinkleff]

They seems to be a lot of information and disinformation out there on this subject. There are a lot of diy "plans" and companies that will sell installed kits some will not work at all some you might see some improvement. And yes it would be nice if these companies would get out some hard numbers based on there test car.

However there is math to support there claim somewhat. as someone said you have to produce eletricy to split the 2h2 from the 02

your not making energy out of nothing your using the energy thats in water. just like the energy thats in cude oil it has to be changed and refined.

"The well developed way of splitting water is by electrolysis. If fossil fuels, e.g. coal, oil or natural gas, are used to generate the electricity, there is no advantage over using the fossil fuels directly. Indeed you still get all the CO2, and there is a considerable loss of energy"

but your car and or truck already produces the electricity with the alternator / generator so really that’s a non point you may have to upgrade to a lager output type but your car always runs the alt. so using the electricity produced by it will not put your engine under any additional "load" or decreases your current gas mileage.

it is known that a car can run on 2h2 but can "your car" use it to increase gas mileage would be the area to study.

so

yes "a" car can run on this fuel

yes it does use energy to produce it but is energy that your car already makes.

yes you can use electricity to produce 2h2

unknown

will it damage your engine?

will it really make "your car" (normal 4 stroke engine) get great gas mileage?

will the 2h2 mix with gasoline and 02 efficiently without causing more problems?

those should be the answers we look for the rest is already documented

[Tinker]

Since the 'Hydro assist' Fuel Cell idea is getting kinda long, what does everyone think about this idea. SHELL GAS TO LIQUID PROJECT? (Film is about seven minutes long. Sound on please, Windows XP and [hopefully] a high speed connection.) I think this is a good idea. Better than the "Hocus Pocus" Fuel cell Guessology .

This company is willing to invest Billions of Dollars in this technology to reduce the 'Carbon Footprint' of the Fossil Fuels that we use today. I am glad that a major U.S./International corporation is looking into this now, instead of some Middle Eastern company. <span style="text-decoration: underline">If</span> they would ever do it in the first place, you know what I mean?

Comments please, even though it is "Off Topic" it is something that all of our children and Grandchildren will have to deal with in the future,,,

[Guest MauiWowee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TINKER8R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Since the 'Hydro assist' Fuel Cell idea is getting kinda long, </div></div>

.........then why not start a new topic?

[Guest Tammy]

On my way through Reedsburg this AM, I noticed there was a class on installing the HAFC. Today and tomorrow. I didn't have time to stop, wish I did.

[Tinker]

I thought that's what I did but, something didn't work the way I thought it would. I guess I have to go back to HTML school. Sorry. Did you ever try to use the Search function on this site?

[Guest MauiWowee]

The search can be frustrating for some. Patience.

[Guest ekvh]

Okay, I admit, I have been captivated by this notion for some time now. I gave up on it a few years ago with ecm systems thinking the possible gains from the hydrogen "boost" would be offset with the computers ecm increasing fuel to get the O2 sensor back to its preset levels for oxygen. I have read mostly UK info that they now have several devices to get around the computer's management system and allow you to enjoy the benefit of the hydrogen boost. Does anyone know if the OBD on the Reatta will allow you to override it and gain the rewards? I can see where playing around with this could result in too hot an engine and burn up valves. Some are saying they just intercept the O2 sensor and the MAP sensor info and adjust voltages accordingly to fool the computer and lean out the fuel. ( The 88 that I have I think has MAF.) I would guess having a temp sensor of some type would be the best insurance against burning it up. Is it possible that we're missing something here? See rinkleff's post above. Another site sells a simple extender of the O2 sensor to fool the computer. It pulls the O2 sensor out of the exhaust stream a bit. Seems a bit hit-and-miss, but it might work.??

[Guest ekvh]

Okay, I admit, I have been captivated by this notion for some time now. I gave up on it a few years ago with ecm systems thinking the possible gains from the hydrogen "boost" would be offset with the computers ecm increasing fuel to get the O2 sensor back to its preset levels for oxygen. I have read mostly UK info that they now have several devices to get around the computer's management system and allow you to enjoy the benefit of the hydrogen boost. Does anyone know if the OBD on the Reatta will allow you to override it and gain the rewards? I can see where playing around with this could result in too hot an engine and burn up valves. Some are saying they just intercept the O2 sensor and the MAP sensor info and adjust voltages accordingly to fool the computer and lean out the fuel. ( The 88 that I have I think has MAF.) I would guess having a temp sensor of some type would be the best insurance against burning it up. Is it possible that we're missing something here? See rinkleff's post above. Another site sells a simple extender of the O2 sensor to fool the computer. It pulls the O2 sensor out of the exhaust stream a bit. Seems a bit hit-and-miss, but it might work.??

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Don't forget the combustion product of H2 is water albeit steam inside a hot engine. I would expect there would be some cooling effect as the steam is depressurized and heads out the exhaust system. Also steam is very corrosive, so cylinder walls, headers and other exhaust components may pay a price over time.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Don't forget the combustion product of H2 is water albeit steam inside a hot engine. I would expect there would be some cooling effect as the steam is depressurized and heads out the exhaust system. Also steam is very corrosive, so cylinder walls, headers and other exhaust components may pay a price over time.

[Guest EDBSO]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ekvh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, I admit, I have been captivated by this notion for some time now. I gave up on it a few years ago with ecm systems thinking the possible gains from the hydrogen "boost" would be offset with the computers ecm increasing fuel to get the O2 sensor back to its preset levels for oxygen. </div></div>

OK, my understanding is that the Brown's Gas H2 and O "burn" completely to water. The extra gas will not cause the computer to think the engine is running any richer or leaner. I believe that you don't have to trick the ECM. Just add the gas which is the product of electrolysis and away you go.

I would think that the gas should be added behind the MAF?

[Guest EDBSO]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ekvh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, I admit, I have been captivated by this notion for some time now. I gave up on it a few years ago with ecm systems thinking the possible gains from the hydrogen "boost" would be offset with the computers ecm increasing fuel to get the O2 sensor back to its preset levels for oxygen. </div></div>

OK, my understanding is that the Brown's Gas H2 and O "burn" completely to water. The extra gas will not cause the computer to think the engine is running any richer or leaner. I believe that you don't have to trick the ECM. Just add the gas which is the product of electrolysis and away you go.

I would think that the gas should be added behind the MAF?

[Guest ekvh]

The resulting addition of Brown's gas will increase the amount of O2 in the exhaust and the O2 sensor will enrich the fuel mixture to compensate. The theory is that the addition of the Brown's gas will cause a more complete burn thereby changing the preset readings for the ECM to control. Also, H2 burns hotter and so the heat can be raised beyond the working design of the gasoline motor. From what I've read, adjustments must be made. I am just wondering if it can be done through the override feature of the OBD in the Reatta.

[Guest ekvh]

The resulting addition of Brown's gas will increase the amount of O2 in the exhaust and the O2 sensor will enrich the fuel mixture to compensate. The theory is that the addition of the Brown's gas will cause a more complete burn thereby changing the preset readings for the ECM to control. Also, H2 burns hotter and so the heat can be raised beyond the working design of the gasoline motor. From what I've read, adjustments must be made. I am just wondering if it can be done through the override feature of the OBD in the Reatta.

[Guest EDBSO]

I don't know why that would be so.

You would be adding two H to every one O and they "burn" completely to water. There will be no extra O for the O sensor to detect because it isn't there.

Am I missing something? Where do you believe the extra O is coming from?

By "tricking" the ECM to believe the engine is running rich will cause it to lean out and you have a great risk of burning not only H but Valves. This alone will increase your mpg and decrease your mpv (miles per valve job).

[Guest EDBSO]

I don't know why that would be so.

You would be adding two H to every one O and they "burn" completely to water. There will be no extra O for the O sensor to detect because it isn't there.

Am I missing something? Where do you believe the extra O is coming from?

By "tricking" the ECM to believe the engine is running rich will cause it to lean out and you have a great risk of burning not only H but Valves. This alone will increase your mpg and decrease your mpv (miles per valve job).

[Ronnie]

Hey guys, This is a very interesting discussion. Here in Oak Ridge the fellows over at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory and the Y-12 National Security Complex split the H (hydrogen atom) all the time and get enormous amounts of power. If they were able to do it back in the '40s, surely us high tech carport engineers should be able to do it in 2008. I say go for it... buy one those gadgets, install it and report back how it works.

As far as worrying about the O2 sensor. It should be no problem at all. I see mechanics at the local drag strip, who have fuel injection systems on their cars, use alcohol as a fuel, inject nitrous oxide into it and pack it in with a turbo charger. Their cars seem to run fine.

[Ronnie]

Hey guys, This is a very interesting discussion. Here in Oak Ridge the fellows over at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory and the Y-12 National Security Complex split the H (hydrogen atom) all the time and get enormous amounts of power. If they were able to do it back in the '40s, surely us high tech carport engineers should be able to do it in 2008. I say go for it... buy one those gadgets, install it and report back how it works.

As far as worrying about the O2 sensor. It should be no problem at all. I see mechanics at the local drag strip, who have fuel injection systems on their cars, use alcohol as a fuel, inject nitrous oxide into it and pack it in with a turbo charger. Their cars seem to run fine.

[Guest ekvh]

I am far from a physics major, but my understanding from the various websites is that the addition of the hydrogen to the gas/air mixture raises the temp and causes the gas to burn more completely. This results in less O2 in the exhaust pipe. (Theoretically there should be no O2 in the pipe of a non-H boosted car, but obviously there are small amounts that get through that the O2 sensor is designed to read and adjusts the mixture accordingly.) I am beginning to think more and more that there is something to this. I have been reading more and of course, as always, there are more adjustments. If you play with the fuel mix, the TPS and the like, the ECM will also adjust the timing, so they are now playing with ways to fool that. Eventually, if this is viable, there will be a different computer setup and sensors to monitor, in the mean time, back-yarders like us will figure it out. I have read a bit on the guys at the strip using the turbos and the like. They bypass the O2 and are not at all concerned with economy or the environment. So they run full rich for full power, and although they seem to run fine, they are not worrying about emissions or their wallets.

[Guest ekvh]

I am far from a physics major, but my understanding from the various websites is that the addition of the hydrogen to the gas/air mixture raises the temp and causes the gas to burn more completely. This results in less O2 in the exhaust pipe. (Theoretically there should be no O2 in the pipe of a non-H boosted car, but obviously there are small amounts that get through that the O2 sensor is designed to read and adjusts the mixture accordingly.) I am beginning to think more and more that there is something to this. I have been reading more and of course, as always, there are more adjustments. If you play with the fuel mix, the TPS and the like, the ECM will also adjust the timing, so they are now playing with ways to fool that. Eventually, if this is viable, there will be a different computer setup and sensors to monitor, in the mean time, back-yarders like us will figure it out. I have read a bit on the guys at the strip using the turbos and the like. They bypass the O2 and are not at all concerned with economy or the environment. So they run full rich for full power, and although they seem to run fine, they are not worrying about emissions or their wallets.

[Guest ekvh]

I also was wondering if any of the experts out there can tell me if the MAF sends a "frequency modulated signal" or a voltage modulated signal"?

[Guest ekvh]

I also was wondering if any of the experts out there can tell me if the MAF sends a "frequency modulated signal" or a voltage modulated signal"?

[jonlabree]

Voltage..

[jonlabree]

Voltage..

[matthewlawe]

FYI - you may want to look at this

Regards

1989 White/Blue

[matthewlawe]

FYI - you may want to look at this

Regards

1989 White/Blue

[Guest TommyH]

Wow. I cannot believe that this thread is still going on. I will just say it once more, and hopefully you guys will get the picture.

YOU CANNOT MAKE NEW ENERGY FROM LESS. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK!!

Now, I agree that our dependency on fossil fuels is a very strong one, but my great-great-great- grandchildren will be dust before anything major to make fossil fuels obsolete. They are more than just fuels, they are lubricants. Crude oil makes your gasoline, which most people understand. It also proveds the plastic that composes most of your car, and most of the products in your daily life. What we need to do is to get rid of the buerocracy, to become a truly free country; instead of being run by a group of people that we fear, the government should fear us.

I leave this thread on this last note, even thought I know I really went off topic, but right on at the same time.

Thomas Jefferson thought it was only normal for a society to rebel against it's own government every 20 years. How long has it been??

[Guest TommyH]

Wow. I cannot believe that this thread is still going on. I will just say it once more, and hopefully you guys will get the picture.

YOU CANNOT MAKE NEW ENERGY FROM LESS. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK!!

Now, I agree that our dependency on fossil fuels is a very strong one, but my great-great-great- grandchildren will be dust before anything major to make fossil fuels obsolete. They are more than just fuels, they are lubricants. Crude oil makes your gasoline, which most people understand. It also proveds the plastic that composes most of your car, and most of the products in your daily life. What we need to do is to get rid of the buerocracy, to become a truly free country; instead of being run by a group of people that we fear, the government should fear us.

I leave this thread on this last note, even thought I know I really went off topic, but right on at the same time.

Thomas Jefferson thought it was only normal for a society to rebel against it's own government every 20 years. How long has it been??

[Guest EDBSO]

TommyH is correct, man will never fly, travel under water or work less than a 60 hour week.

Idea.

What if you put a deep cycle battery in the trunk, recharge it with cheap electric power and then generated and burnt Brown's gas during the day.

[Guest EDBSO]

TommyH is correct, man will never fly, travel under water or work less than a 60 hour week.

Idea.

What if you put a deep cycle battery in the trunk, recharge it with cheap electric power and then generated and burnt Brown's gas during the day.

[Guest ekvh]

Scientists say:

1. That's insane.

2. It will never work.

3. I have always said that was a good idea.

4. That was my idea. I invented that.

To some people the world is still flat.

[Guest ekvh]

Scientists say:

1. That's insane.

2. It will never work.

3. I have always said that was a good idea.

4. That was my idea. I invented that.

To some people the world is still flat.

[Guest Squire Tom]

that was not a scientist that was

Al Gore speaking at a CO2 credit telethon held at his mansion-

another inconvenient Truth

i ,for one , am waiting until Ron Popeil markets it on QVC on EasyPay