1962 Starfire carb line

[Pat]

Question. Did the 62 have 2 bent steel lines that went from the feul pump to the carb? I ordered a line from inline tube for the 4 barrel and 2 tubes came, 1 much longer than the other. The shorter almost does a 180 on itself. I ordered from classic the line listed for 63 Starfire and got one for a 2 barrel. That I at least used for my 88 w 2barrel. Did I get a wrong order or is 62 lines way different. Thanks

[Oldsfan]

'62s have a line running from the carb inlet to the fuel filter outlet, which is mounted on the oil filler tube. This line is shaped a little bit like a question mark. Then, there is a line that runs from the fuel filter inlet down to the fuel pump outlet. If you've got an a/c equipped car, there is also a vapor line that runs from the fuel filter back to the tank, but that is just a rubber line that is secured with a clamp.

Paul

[Pat]

That explains it. I couldn't find a diagram for the fuel lines. I guess I'll have to start looking for a 62 to use this line with! Dang!

[Guest dstaton]

Paul,

I am correcting some hardware issues with my AC 62. in your opinion, what would be the danger of omitting the vapor return. I have read that its effect is marginal.

I live in Tucson, so the AC will run, occasionally in 100 weather.

Doug

[Guest rsd9699]

If it was not useful to have - then govmo would never have spent the money trying to eliminate hot start vapor lock. 100 degrees is conservative for your neck of the desert.

I never had problems starting my 62 with a/c an any weather when I lived in Ft. Worth and there were a bunch of 100 + days. With todays fuel - I would not eliminate anything.

Ron

[joe_padavano]

Paul,

I am correcting some hardware issues with my AC 62. in your opinion, what would be the danger of omitting the vapor return. I have read that its effect is marginal.

I live in Tucson, so the AC will run, occasionally in 100 weather.

Doug

The whole purpose of the fuel return line (it is not vapor at that point, it's liquid) is to continually circulate fuel from the hot underhood environment back to the tank where it can cool off. Olds used this setup on all cars that had the possibility of high underhood temperatures - namely A/C cars and high performance cars. As noted above, with today's ethanol-laced gasoline, this is even more important than it was in the 1960s to prevent vapor lock in the carb.

[Guest dstaton]

Thanks, guys.

[Oldsfan]

I can say that...

1. That line moves a lot of fuel. Like a gallon in just a few blocks of driving.

2. Having had a return line issue in the past, it is amazing the difference when it is operating properly.

Paul

[Guest dstaton]

Ok, but I'm not finding any information about the return line in the manual. Can you please help me identify these lines on my tank?

I imagine the stopped line to the top of the tank would be the return, disabled for lack of the correct fuel pump. (Did non-AC cars come with this line stubbed off like this, or has mine been Jethroed?)

Doug

Edited July 30, 2011 by dstaton (see edit history)

[Oldsfan]

Yes, that is the return tube on the tank. I can't say about non-a/c cars. I've never seen the tank out of a non-a/c car. Now wait. That's not true. I parted out a non-a/c car and sold the tank to a guy in Ohio. But I can't remember whether it had that tube or not. I'll have to see if I can find out.

Paul

[Guest dstaton]

Thanks, Paul. Another piece of the puzzle. Finding an AC fuel pump has so far proven to be difficult. Is yours still working? Have you have it rebuilt? I may ask Fusick's if they would take my non-AC core for partial and return an AC rebuild. otherwise, I may have to install a Holley...

It seems to me that one of the attractions of Oldsmobile is its level of sophistication and forward engineering. Is it ok to celebrate the impeccable style, and let go, of necessity and with regret, of some mechanical fastidiousness?

Does this lead to rescued road gems, or poorly running vehicles?

Doug

[Guest rsd9699]

The ac fuel pumps are out there and available as nos but you will need a kit for the cheap gas of today to avoid headaches tomorrow. They are two stage as the vacuum pump is needed to make the a/c motors work on hard acceleration. A dab of grease the size of a match head will restore the vacuum ports on the heater-a/c panel to like new operation.

Olds was the poor mans caddy - from the late sixties through the eighties they offered nearly everything caddy did except the price tag. Plus looks and performance were top notch!

To bad the rich people in this country did not buy the rights from govmo and make a real car that we all want. The Olds engine was better than any Chevy engine and now you buy a caddy that is 99 percent Chevy and pay caddy prices - how dumb......

Ron

[rocketraider]

Actually a lot of those Cadillac gadgets were developed by Oldsmobile Engineering and, unlike today's GM, were foolproof when finally released for production. Cadillac got them first (which was why they had to be "right"), then the others.

I always found it interesting that Buick was often the hold-out on offering some of these gadgets. Buick had this mindset that if they didn't design it, it wasn't appropriate for a Buick. See Hydra-Matic... Good enough for Cadillac and Rolls-Royce, too jerky for a Buick.

Doug, back to your fuel pump question: The A/C pump has a secondary vacuum diaphram that is used to supply a "constant" vacuum source to the heat and A/C controls. Before they realised they could use a vacuum storage can with manifold vacuum, hard acceleration (translating to low vacuum signal) would make the HVAC do weird things like switch from heat to defrost to a/c on its own.

Before electric wipers were developed, most cars used this same setup to supply a "constant" vacuum to the vacuum wiper motors. However- having had a 1960 Mercury Comet in the family, and having driven a school bus that had vacuum wipers, I can safely say that a hard pull up a hill will slow the wipers to where they're practically useless. Then going downhill under high vacuum, they will flop like a fish out of water.

[Oldsfan]

Here is a pic of the non-a/c gas tank that i sold, courtesy of the buyer:

So, I guess they all had the return tube. In '62, tanks were vented - first through the cap, later the cap was non vented (due to spillage on turns) and a vent line was run from the opposite end of the tank, and came out by the filler neck, through a surge tank. I'm guessing they just considered this additional venting on non-a/c cars.

In regards to the pump, there is no such thing as a/c / no-a/c pumps in '62. They are all the same. All '62s used the Deluxe heater, which used the same vacuum pump that Glenn mentioned for the a/c. Actually, '61 Deluxe heater or a/c cars used the same pump as '62. '61 standard heater cars (slide levers) used a pump without the vacuum pump. I've replaced my pump numerous times. They should not be hard to get. And you'll want a rebuilt one because of this Ethanol gas. The ethanol will kill the old one in nothing flat. The rubber is probably already shot due to age anyway. I understand Art Gould is a good place for rebuilds.

What you will need is an a/c fuel FILTER - the glass bowl mounted on the oil fill tube. It has an extra port for the return line. These appear on eBay occasionally. They tend to be expensive because mid 60's 442 used them.

Paul

Edited July 31, 2011 by Oldsfan (see edit history)

[Oldsfan]

Just looked at Fusick's catalog. They list one pump for '61 and '62. Are looking at the "6585 AC" in the catalog text? That AC doesn't mean air conditioning. That is AC like in ACDelco.

Paul

[Guest dstaton]

Excellent!

Were the vacuum hoses actually installed per the colors identified in the manual diagram? Mine are all black.

The return line from the fuel filter must course along the send line. Does it also have the metal component with rubber at the attachment terminations? How was it routed from the filter? The hose nipple at the tank is smaller...

Is this the correct part? $125

Doug

Edited July 31, 2011 by dstaton (see edit history)

[Oldsfan]

A dab of grease the size of a match head will restore the vacuum ports on the heater-a/c panel to like new operation.

Can you elaborate on that? I think I might like to try that.

Paul

[Guest dstaton]

Pat, can you upload a photo of your "extra" fuel line? I may be able to use it.

Doug

[Guest rsd9699]

Per the grease on the a/c push button controls.

I wish I had kept some of those controls that I tossed over the years.....

I could describe this better with pictures and perhaps some one can post pictures of the vacuum switch.

As the car ages the grease used to "seal" and lubricate the vacuum vacuum port switch drys out making the buttons harder to press and the lose of vacuum.

My 59 olds that I had around 1971 was acting weird do I took the control out of the dash - I unplugged the electrical wires and the rubber plug that all the vacuum hosed are terminated in. This exposes the pins on the vacuum switch. I believe the center contained a retaining screw. With the screw removed the vacuum switch separates into two parts. One part is stationary and the other part moves as the buttons on the control are pressed. You will see that the grease has dried and gummed up the passages in the switch. I cleaned everything - blew out the control and ports clean with compressed air and then I used about a wooden match head of grease on the two machined surfaces (it was diacast back then and the newer ones are plastic). Worked the two parts back and forth a few times to spread the grease. Separated the two parts and looked for clumps of grease in the passages and removed them. reassembled everything and oiled all the moving parts. Also cleaned the switches for the fan and compressor - they look like reed switches. Lightly dressed the points with the old trusty point file. Solved the a/c hunting from recirculate to normal.

I did the same thing on a 62 star fire but for a different reason. The star fire had vacuum trunk opener. The little reserve tank was not holding vacuum at least over night. I used black trim cement to seal the vacuum tank check valve and then found that I needed to do the control valves. It would then pop the trunk - even over a weekend of not driving.

I have had to grease a lot of stuff on my 69 Olds 98 with vacuum door locks to have a 48 hour vacuum supply to do the doors.

Ron

[Guest rsd9699]

In addition - I now use silicon grease - lasts longer.

I thank Buick for the turbo 400 with switch pitch!

Ron

[Oldsfan]

Yes, the hoses originally had colored stripes on them. Over the years it has probably worn off. I think it was just paint. Or, they may have been replaced. The control heads have numbers cast into the ports, so you know which one goes where (if you can figure out which number belongs to what port...). I ran all new lines on mine, one at a time. They are currently unmarked.

That looks to be the correct filter. The return line is a smaller hose than the feed line uses. I just saw that in the parts book over the weekend. It is rubber the whole way, clamped at both ends. It runs through a loop attached to one of the alternator bracket bolts (to keep it away from the belts), then over to the inner fender, where it runs along with the washer hose. Then it goes down to the OUTSIDE of the body mount. This is very important. I know from experience. Keep it away from the exhaust manifold. Should come out through the hole in the frame's torque box (like the speedo cable on the other side), then run with the feed line along the frame rail.

Paul

[Guest dstaton]

Thank you, Paul.

[Guest dstaton]

I bought the correct fuel filter ($75) and am now reinstalling the gas tank sending unit. Do we make our own gaskets or is there a reliable source for such items? Fusick's doesn't list them, nor NAPA...

[Oldsfan]

Yes, we make our own. I bought some NOS once, but they were too dry (and they shrank) to use. Get some gasket material and start tracing...

Paul

[Hurst_Olds_1968]

Yes, the hoses originally had colored stripes on them. Over the years it has probably worn off. I think it was just paint. Or, they may have been replaced. The control heads have numbers cast into the ports, so you know which one goes where (if you can figure out which number belongs to what port...). I ran all new lines on mine, one at a time. They are currently unmarked.

That looks to be the correct filter. The return line is a smaller hose than the feed line uses. I just saw that in the parts book over the weekend. It is rubber the whole way, clamped at both ends. It runs through a loop attached to one of the alternator bracket bolts (to keep it away from the belts), then over to the inner fender, where it runs along with the washer hose. Then it goes down to the OUTSIDE of the body mount. This is very important. I know from experience. Keep it away from the exhaust manifold. Should come out through the hole in the frame's torque box (like the speedo cable on the other side), then run with the feed line along the frame rail.

Paul

Hi Paul, I was wondering if you could post a picture of how it is to be run from the filter to the fender well.

Thanks

Vinny

[Oldsfan]

I seem to recall someone asking for photos previously. Maybe that was you. I will have to awaken Sleeping Beauty from her winter's slumber. She will no doubt protest...

Paul

[Hurst_Olds_1968]

Nevermind, I think mine is in tact, wasn't sure I had it because the last onwer removed the glass filter and installed an inline metal one, bit it has a return line hooked up to it. Also they installed an electric fuel pump ... think this is because the orig pump went bad? I heard that the cranks would wear down and prevent the fuel pumps from working, not sure if I believe that though.

Thanks paul

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Nevermind, I think mine is in tact, wasn't sure I had it because the last onwer removed the glass filter and installed an inline metal one, bit it has a return line hooked up to it. Also they installed an electric fuel pump ... think this is because the orig pump went bad? I heard that the cranks would wear down and prevent the fuel pumps from working, not sure if I believe that though.

Thanks paul

Fuel pump arms and/or push rods wear out, and on some engines the camshaft concentric may show wear, they are of softer metal than any crankshaft.

Electric fuel pump = bad original fuel pump. Aftermarket correct fuel pumps in either form for the 394 pretty much dried up 20 years ago, that even includes the rebuilds. If the original pump is still in place it can be rebuilt provided none of the castings have warped. From time to time correct fuel pumps show up on ebay in rebuilt form, but the problem is those will need to be rebuilt to prevent diaphragm failure thanks to Ethanol and the old diaphragms not being Ethanol tolerant.

If you choose to rebuild the original pump just remember you'll need to replace the fexible fuel line between the tank and the steel fuel line along the passenger side frame. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace the other end either.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

[Hurst_Olds_1968]

Fuel pump arms and/or push rods wear out, and on some engines the camshaft concentric may show wear, they are of softer metal than any crankshaft.

Electric fuel pump = bad original fuel pump. Aftermarket correct fuel pumps in either form for the 394 pretty much dried up 20 years ago, that even includes the rebuilds. If the original pump is still in place it can be rebuilt provided none of the castings have warped. From time to time correct fuel pumps show up on ebay in rebuilt form, but the problem is those will need to be rebuilt to prevent diaphragm failure thanks to Ethanol and the old diaphragms not being Ethanol tolerant.

If you choose to rebuild the original pump just remember you'll need to replace the fexible fuel line between the tank and the steel fuel line along the passenger side frame. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace the other end either.

Thank you Jim!

Doesn't Fusick sell rebuilt units?

Replacing the fuel line, are you saying that from the tank up to the line going into the pump is rubber or steel? Is it a major job getting to this without having the car on a lift?

Thank you again, all help is appreciated!

Vinny

[Guest dstaton]

Fuel pump arms and/or push rods wear out, and on some engines the camshaft concentric may show wear, they are of softer metal than any crankshaft.

Jim,

Having returned to this tread after rebuilding and installing two dual stage original pumps, I am "glad" to read that it's only my camshaft that's broken.

Neither pump could draw once installed on the block although both caused 6-7 lbs pressure on the bench. I finally installed a Holley Blue which seems to be working fine despite its incongruous sound and fury.

What is your opinion on the character of this camshaft wear? Is it resultant of the shape and angle of a fuel pump armature of regrettable design – those rebuilt pumps were amazingly resistant to operation by hand. Or is there a general issue with these cams? I imagine the lifters with their regular, polished surface would pose a gentler influence on their cam lobes than the rude rod of the pump on its.

Doug