Terry Wiegand

We think the problem has been solved and know what happened. I will ask you to go back in this posting and look carefully at the sectional view drawing where the oil pump spring is shown. The original pump spring was straight ID and OD wise. Here is where things get confusing. The upper shaft that drives off the camshaft has a larger diameter with the spring slot. Going by what can be measured from the drawing (keep in mind that the drawing is full scale) it was determined that that end of the shaft measures .750" in diameter. The upper end of the shaft that drives the pump gears measures .6875" (or 11/16"). Here is where the problem was. The Inside diameter of the new spring measures .745" The spring did not slip over the end of the upper shaft far enough to fully engage the cross section into the slot. The guys made a piece like what it was supposed to be and it was discovered that that was where things hung up. The new spring(s) will be made with an inside diameter of .765" and this is going to be exactly what is needed. We have all heard that old saying that the Good Lord looks after drunks and fools, well, I ain't no drunk. Guess where that leaves me. The Good Lord was watching over us on the Red Flag Tour. We are so thankful that this did not decide to happen going down the road at 30 miles per hour. We should have some new springs sometime around the middle to latter part of February. Too cold to be on a creeper on the concrete floor anyway. Photos when the springs arrive. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

I did speak with the folks at Action Spring before Christmas and we are going to get together sometime later this week. There is a real good possibility that it has been figured out what happened. I don't want to say too much just yet because I still have a few questions about how the spring was made. Once this has been talked out I think the issue will be resolved so that it will never happen again. More later. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

The intake and exhaust valves were the same diameter for the 1916 and 1917 Light Six engines. 1916 was the first year for the Light Six. In 1918 Buick increased the diameter on the intake valves thus using two different diameters of the sealing rings. In the past when my very good friend was still alive, we machined these sealing rings for a lot of Buick owners. If you would send me a PM with your contact information I would like to visit with you and possibly steer you to someone who can make a set or two for you. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

JDuguid, Are you absolutely sure that the wheels are 26 inch diameter? IF they are and IF they are Baker wheels, then this is the first 1916/1917 D-45 Buick in captivity that I have ever seen or heard of and I have seen a lot of them over the years. I am posting some photos of the Baker Rim Wedges for the wheels on my car. Do your rim wedges look like these? I would really like to know if your car does indeed have Baker wheels like it left the factory with. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

JDugid, As the owner of a 1916 D-45 with the car being in my family for 60 years, I have managed to learn a thing or two about them. These cars left the factory at Flint on 24-inch wheels with 56 inch wide axles. There was an option for 26-inch wheels with 60 inch wide axles. I have never seen or heard of a D-45 with the larger wheels and wider axles. Our car has 34 x 5, BF Goodrich Silvertown Cord BlackWall tires. I have factory documentation that our car left Flint with Black body color. Your car being painted White is the result of somebody's personal preference. Your car has Baker Wheels and if you can get a set of the 34 x 5 tires, you will be amazed at how well the car will ride and drive, plus they will fill the fenders better and look better while doing it. Please keep in mind that the 1916 and 1917 D-45's were basically the same car appearance wise. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

The larger sub assemblies like the transmission, front axle, and rear axle were serial numbered and listed as such on the finishing report and/or build sheet. I am not sure when Buick got away from doing that. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

JBuick, The photo of the gasoline tank gauge from your 1922 Model 45 is almost identical to the gauge in our 1916 D-45. We have a 1922 Model 48 and this car has a dash-mounted gas gauge that is operated by a piano wire that runs inside an armored conduit from the gasoline tank. If you have a gasoline tank that utilizes the gauge that you are showing, I will go out on that proverbial limb and say that your tank has been changed out at some point in time. The other possibility is that the open models might not have had the dash-mounted gauge. If you would please post a photo of the dash panel in your car, this will certainly go a long way in clearing up some questions. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

Barbara and I want to wish all of our friends and Old Buicks Enthusiasts a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy and Much Better New Year. Miss Muggins sends along her wishes too. Barbara and Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas aka Way Out in Doo Dah AACA Life Members #947918

wmsue, Thank You for the very good photos and the information on where to obtain screen material like what you used. It has to be kept in mind that the screen on my oil pump is approaching 108 years old and I personally did not help it any during the clean-up and the handling. Things are underway to get this part of the pump replaced. As I think everyone knows, this is a non-pressurized oiling system and the pump is simply a means of circulating the oil in the pan to feed the rod dippers and the main bearings. I would hope that the very fine screen material would not slow down the oil flow into the pump. Mr. Marr and his engineering team did a fantastic job in designing these engines back in the day and they built 100's of 1,000's of engines using this technology, and it worked very well. Getting to the bottom of the problem is simply a matter of elimination of the possibilities. My son-in-law and I eliminated one more possible area yesterday afternoon. We know that the drive shaft running off the back end of the camshaft is OK. Cranking the engine by hand showed that the shaft runs just fine. I am leaning more and more to the material in the spring as the culprit. The thermometer took a serious dive here last night and it is colder than a witches t#t this morning. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

I have some help lined up with that screen material and how to replace it with better fastening of the ends together. I simply did not realize just what was there until I got things washed up real good. Here are a couple of good close-up views of the screen and why this needs to be taken care of before it goes back in the oil pan. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

I got all of the pieces that make up the pump assembly washed up this afternoon. There was no evidence of damage anywhere on the teeth of both gears. No evidence of damage in the gears pocket or bottom plate. This makes me think that nothing metal went through that pump. We're going to look at one more thing when my son-in-law stops by after work. He is going to run the crank handle and I am going to look up into the crankcase and watch the shaft rotation that runs off the camshaft. If that is good, then it pretty well narrows it down to the spring and something about the material. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

I do not have the original spring. I think that the spring folks probably still have it. It was sent to them so that the new one could be made from its dimensions. The new spring was sent directly to Abrahams Machine. After spending almost 20 years in aircraft quality control I have learned a thing or two about looking for problems. This situation certainly has me scratching my head and wondering just what happened. With over 400 miles on the car since the engine rebuild, things are just not adding up like a person would think. I still want to hear what the spring company has to say. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

Matt, I believe that the green material that is on the screen is some sort of epoxy material. I tried to contact the engine builder at Abrahams today and he was not going to be in until later in the week. I want to talk with him about just what went on with this pump during the rebuild. I spoke with him quite a few times during the rebuild process. I remember him telling me that the bottom plate was really nice (no scoring) and all that they did was lightly lap it before putting it back together. We are going to have three springs when this is all done and over with. Before I go to all the work to drop the oil pan I want to hear what the folks at Action Spring have to say. I know that this last photo does not show it well, but the pump insides were as clean as a whistle. A person would think that if something did get into the gears and caused the spring to unwind and stop the pump action, then it would seem logical that whatever it was it would still be there - instead, nothing. Andy's thought about the overall length of the spring could possibly have some merit. Right now, there are unknowns about that spring - material condition and certain measurements need to be out in the open. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

I took the oil pump apart this afternoon and I did not find any evidence of anything there that should not be there. I want to get a little warmer day with some sunshine and get things all washed up. I will then check the clearance on the gears. Both sides of the gear teeth looked to be in perfect condition. The last time the car was driven the thermometer was knockin' on 60 degrees. That simply is not cold out here in Doo Dah. Action Spring will have the spring on Wednesday. It is going to be interesting what they come up with regard to the material. I'm simply not finding anything wrong with the engine mechanically at this point. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

I drug my magnet through the pan of drained oil with absolutely nothing being picked up. Just one more thing to go through in the process of elimination. I am going to get the oil pump taken apart tomorrow and see if that will reveal anything. When I dropped it down yesterday afternoon the shaft and gears were just as free as could be. I am still leaning towards the spring material being the problem. Will keep everyone advised. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

Looking at the engineering drawing and holding the spring in the position that it is in in the engine, one can see right away that the spring was wound in the correct orientation to the way the drawing calls out. I think it is safe to say that that issue is not where the problem is. I'm sending the spring down to Tulsa the first thing Monday morning. I will let everyone know what they tell me after they have had the chance to check things out. I am just happy that there was no damage done to the pump or the innards of the engine. I will check the pump over very carefully. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

We had a beautifully warm late Fall day today and I dropped the oil pump out of the pan. The problem was as suspected - the drive spring. I simply wasn't ready for what I found. The spring did not break, but appears to have come unwound. Now, get this, the oil pump is just as free and smooth as the day the guys at the shop put things together. I am still going to take it apart, clean it all up, and check things out very carefully. Has anyone ever seen anything like this happen before? Now, the other crazy thing about this is that the messed up end of the spring is on the top end (or the bottom end of the camshaft drive). To look at this in a logical manner it would make a person think that the oil pump gears locked up - but they were free when the pump was taken out of the pan. I took the trouble light and a mirror to look up inside the crankcase and everything appears as it should be. I believe the problem to be with the spring. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

Mr. McBuick, I have the oil draining from the pan as I write this. It was 57 degrees inside my shop building when I pulled the drain plugs. The oil did not run out like water, but it did not flow like cold molasses either. I just spoke with the folks at the spring company and I let them know that when I get the oil pump removed and if indeed this is the problem I will be sending the spring down to them. I was also told that once the springs are completely formed then they go through a shot peening process. There could have been a fracture in the very center of the bend. They are pretty sure that they will be able to determine what happened once they have it in hand. I want to clarify something else that I stated earlier and was questioned on. The guys at Abrahams Machine in Davenport have been rebuilding old engines like this for decades. They know what they are doing. I had spoke with Dave (manager/owner)quite a few times during the process and he explained a lot of things in detail about what was going on with our engine. He told me that a lot of people do not know that there are differences in bearing clearances between an insert bearing engine and an engine that has poured bearings. They knew what was required for our engine and they added .0002" to .0004: additional clearance in the bearings. There was no mistake in what I stated and I hope that Larry Schramm reads this. To say that this was a learning experience all the way through would be a huge understatement. As I stated earlier, I do not think that the oil I used played any part in this, but we are going to find out just what is going on. I think that you hit upon something in talking about the material. I'll keep you guys posted and photos also. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

I'm really sorry that this discussion has turned into a 'You're wrong for using 20W50 oil'. I do not believe for one second that the oil could cause the spring to break. I want to call everyone's attention to the enlarged photo of the drive spring and the very tight bends on both ends. Do I think that this could be a cause for any breakage in that area? I most certainly do. I'm in the process of getting the oil pump removed from the pan. If the spring is broken, then that is the answer as to why no oil is coming into the sight gauge. Let's wait and see what is found. Please keep this thought in mind - it was a degree or two away from 60 degrees on the day that the problem was discovered. This cannot be blamed on cold weather because it simply wasn't cold. And another person states that they had the same issue with this spring and no mention of engine oil causing the breakage. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

Now, isn't that interesting. Here is another example of oil pump spring failure. I really hate to say this, but I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that 20W50 oil is too heavy to be running in this engine. I want to get the oil drained later today during the higher temp of the day. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

Mr. McBuick, By doing what you did with the photo, you nailed it exactly where the wear was at. I want to also point out that the wear was only on one end of the spring and both ends were formed exactly the same. I am not really sure just what to think about that. I would like to think that the materials that are available today are metallurgically superior to what was on hand back in the day, but I'm just not going to be able to know what the problem is until I can get the pump out of the pan. You guys will be the first to know about that. Dave talked to me about what they were going to do with regard to the rebuild. He told me that they were going to set the running tolerances a tad bit looser so that there wouldn't be as much stress and strain on the rotating assembly. What does that mean exactly? I'm thinking it means about .0002" to possibly .0004". This translates to being a little easier on the main and rod bearings. I think that this is exactly why he told me that the 20W50 would be a great choice for the oil. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

Don, The original spring was almost worn through the wire in the bend on one end. That was why it was replaced. It has been talked about before when I was putting everything back together with regard to using synthetic oil. The owner of the shop that rebuilt the engine for us advised me to stay as far away as possible from any synthetic oil. He told me that with poured bearings in this engine a good grade of mineral oil was the way that I should go. I look at this like going to my doctor - if I do not follow his advice, how can I expect to get better? We paid a fair amount to have this engine rebuilt and I am going to follow the rebuilder's advice so that I will have a great running engine. We had exactly that up until this problem. The folks at the spring company told me that it is entirely possible that there could have been a small defect in the material that caused a problem. Outside of the aggravation that this has caused, they are going to make things right if indeed this turns out to be the problem. I hope to get the oil drained tomorrow so that the pump can be taken out of the pan. Once that happens I will know immediately what the problem is and the fix can be undertaken. You are correct when you say that there isn't much of a load on the spring. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

Mr. McBuick, There is nothing silly about considering all possibilities. A plugged line could possibly have a similar result. The photo that I am posting here shows the condition of the inside of the oil pan when the guys at the shop started tearing the engine down to start the rebuild process. As far as old engines go this one was relatively clean inside considering it was over 100 years old and had never been opened up. I took mineral spirits under high pressure to the external oil lines several times to make sure that they were free from any gunky residue. There has been no loss of oil from the oil pan and I think Ed is right on in his thinking about the spring. What's that old saying - 'crap happens'. I think it happened in this case. I am just thankful that this did not happen on the tour and that there appears to be no damage done to anything internally. I am also glad that the pan does not have to come off the crankcase. I have talked with the folks at Action Spring in Tulsa and they have all of the data collected from the original spring that I sent them and they are ready to help us with a new spring and they suggested that maybe we should have several made at this time just in case. Not a bad idea at all. They will stand behind their product and work for us. It supposed to be almost 60 degrees here Thursday and this is the day that I get things taken apart. More information and photos later. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

There is some encouraging news to report at this time. I went through all of the photos that were taken during the engine rebuild and this one shows the pump shaft drive spring and the pump gears housing proper. It appears that the oil pan will not have to be dropped to get at the problem. It just seems to me that the drive spring is what is causing the issue. I am going to get the oil drained from the pan so that the oil pump can be removed. I am really glad that the pan will not have to be removed and break the seal that was established when the engine was set back together. If you look closely at the ends of the spring, you can see the tight bend in the wire that hooks into each end of the shafts. We will know right what is going on when things are taken apart. More photos to come. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918

Rock, Not really all that unusual for back in the day. Look at things this way - people actually drove these cars in the winter. It was explained to me that if there was water formed in the crankcase from condensation, that water could freeze and lock up the oil pump function and possibly damage the pump and/or engine. Mr. Marr was actually pretty sharp in designing these engines in my humble opinion. The spring was designed to purposely be the weakest link to avoid the pump from damage. Right now I simply am guessing that the spring could be the problem. I won't know for sure until I drop the oil pan. All I can say is I'm sure glad that this didn't happen in the middle of the Red Flag Tour running down the road at around 30 miles an hour. Everything was as clean as possible on reassembly, so I do not think that any sort of blockage is at play here. 400+ miles of driving sorta rules that thought out. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918