Starfire61

Bryan- Idaho's rather far from Iowa, but here's a Hydramatic-equipped 78 club sedan that's currently up for auction on fee-pay. I think the buy-it-now is rather ambitious, but it looks like a very solid example. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Oldsmobil...1QQcmdZViewItem Going by what Paul said in his earlier post, the lack of the washboard trim combined with the painted headlight grilles suggests that this could be a wartime austerity deluxe model. I particularly like the fastback combined with the long wheelbase, & apparently the 70 series was the only model to use this particular bodystyle. Here are the pics from the auction- Chuck

Hey Paul- If Bryan doesn't buy it, I'll bet it would look great sitting next to your Starfire! Fly into Chicago & we'll drive to Staunton & check it out.... All kidding aside, you're right- there couldn't be many remaining, & it'd be a shame to see some yokel turn it into a street rod. Chuck

Here's a clean-looking club coupe from Illinois that's currently in Hemmings online for $11K & change: http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/oldsmobile/unspecified/758279.html This one's a 66 with a manual trans, so it's unfortunately not as unique as the car you're looking at in Staunton. Compared to the 2684 68 club coupes, Olds built 23796 with the 6-cylinder. On the other hand, it doesn't look like it needs much to be enjoyed. Bubba's right- you'd probably be better off in the long run by paying more $ upfront for a better car. Even doing most of the work yourself, you'd likely exceed the asking price of this 66 by restoring the 68. Of course, decisions like these are seldom based on any financial sensibilities. If the thrill of finding an unusual car & doing a restoration is more enticing than buying a car that's more or less ready to go, then that 68 may be right up your alley. Good luck, & please keep us posted. Chuck

Don't worry, I have enough cars for now.... I think that car's a 68... it doesn't look long enough to be a 90 series! I've been thumbing thru the pics in Casteele's book trying to compare the 60 series & 90 series club coupes. I can't tell whether the extra length on the 90 series is found in the nose, doors, rear quarter, or all three. I don't have the appropriate literature to determine for certain what sheet metal is shared among them, but it's pretty clear that the 90 series club coupe has a much lankier look than this car. Furthermore, the 70 & 90 series cars both had broad, horizontal trim bands trailing each wheel arch. Those on the rear fenders wrap around the back of the car & meet the tail lights. These bands were not used on the 60 series cars. Looking at the car you're considering, I see no mounting holes, no ghosting, or any evidence that such trim was ever on the car. I found a few images online of a 90 series club coupe & posted them here. Due to the angle, it's hard to judge the length difference, but you can see the trim bands quite well. 60 series or not, it's still an attractive car. Might still be worth a look if you're interested... Aren't you in Iowa? How far is Staunton from you? Chuck

I'm no authority on these, but here's some additional info from Casteele's book. There does appear to be some repetition among the model numbers, which may indeed be erroneous. The 6 & 8-cylinder engines were available in all three series for 1941. The 68 series offered both a club coupe & a business coupe, both of which supposedly shared model #413527. These cars had a 119-inch wheelbase. Production on the business coupe was 188, while 2684 club coupes were built. It's unclear whether a club coupe was built in the 70 series. Casteele's book states that such a car was not listed in contemporary literature, but mentions that production records indicate that 353 were built in the 76 series, & 51 in the 78 series. Model # was 413627 in both series. 70 series cars shared the same 125-inch wheelbase as the 90 series. There was another 2-door made in the 70 series called the club sedan. It had the same angled B-pillar as the club coupe, but had a fastback as opposed to the coupe's notchback. This bodystyle was only used in the 70 series, but was fairly popular. The 78 club sedan in standard trim was model #413627 & 8260 were produced. In deluxe trim, the car carried model #413627-D, & another 5338 were built. Bobolds already provided the info on the 90 series. Could you post a few pics? These cars aren't seen very often. Chuck

The '59 transmission likely will not clear the hump in your '62 Olds. Among the other "virtues" of the Slim-Jim trans touted on its debut in 1961 was the significantly lower floor hump compared to earlier years. Seen side-by-side, the Slim-Jim is quite a bit smaller than the older hydramatic. Unfortunately, there's no easy replacement for the Slim-Jim in '61-64 Oldsmobiles. Older hydramatics will bolt right up to the engine, but they won't clear the body of the car. Fitting a later transmission to the 394 is an expensive, pitfall-laden option that requires adapter plates, as well as modifying the driveshaft & the crossmember. Is your Slim-Jim dead, or you just don't like it? For what it would cost to install something else, I'd just as soon get used to the quirks of a functioning Slim-Jim! Chuck

I am genuinely sorry to hear of your wife's recent difficulties & wish her a speedy recovery. I hope that she had excellent, prompt care by decent & well-trained professionals. Your financial issues related to her care are unfortunately all-too common across the land & are no doubt emblematic of bigger problems within the system overall. It's no consolation to note that the actual providers of your wife's care likely received only a fraction of whatever amount you paid. Depite the rising costs, providers are making less & less money all the time. I have partners in my group who earned more 15 years ago than today- that's real dollars, not inflation-adjusted. I agree with you completely that the system has serious problems. I don't profess to have the answers, but I think the notion of turning things over to a single-payer, federalized entity is simplistic & fraught with problems that have not been adequately considered. From my own perspective, such a system would almost certainly result in a further decrease in income for providers, as we are among the least-organized of all the players in the game & thus unable to lobby very well. This has already been playing out in slow-motion for years as the Feds & insurance companies have steadily ratcheted down their reimbursements to physicians. Granted, most folks could care less, as they already think that greedy docs are printing money in their basements, but for everyone there comes a tipping point at which the reward no longer justifies the effort. Put docs on salary, or force them to take universal Medicare-type rates, & there will be a slow stampede of physicians from the high-stress/high-risk/high-reward specialties. Count on it. Eventually people will start waiting 6 months or more for a coronary bypass or a hip replacement. If it happens slowly enough, perhaps the public won't care, as long as it's "free" & they can still sue the doc in the event of a bad outcome. The path to a career in medicine is an arduous one. By the time most young physicians complete eight years of college & medical school, plus three to seven (or more) difficult years of residency or other post-graduate training, most are deeply in debt & already in their thirties. The surgical-related specialties are particularly tough- the hours can be extremely long & unpredictable, & long periods of tedium are occasionally punctuated by moments of sheer terror. Oftentimes the worst cases are the freebies (well, SOMEBODY pays): the 2 AM emergency C-section on the cocaine-positive patient with no prenatal care, or the HIV-positive gangbanger with a gunshot wound through his liver who's bleeding so much that he's used up all his platelets. The icing on the cake is the lawsuit that awaits if these adventures don't end well. Even simple & straightforward procedures have the potential to go sour in a hurry. It's always in the back of your mind. The hours & the stress take their toll on your body, your marriage, & your relationship with your kids. Hold the violins, as I'm not seeking sympathy. I worked very hard pursuing my career hoping to provide a nice lifestyle for my family & knowing full-well what to expect. What I did not expect was the euphoric emergence of a socialist nanny state which celebrates pulling the rug out from under my feet in the name of fairness. My personal situation aside, consider the implications of legions of government bureaucrats & protocols dictating which tests to run, or which drugs or equipment to use. "Sure, the patient might have more pain if you open him up, but those laparoscopic instruments are too darned expensive..." Consider the ethical & moral questions of rationing & limiting the scope of care for specific patient types in the interest of the greater good. Too Orwellian? Think it can't happen here? Consider tort reform, or the lack thereof & its impact on healthcare costs. Will Obama the lawyer take steps to reduce lawsuits? The aging baby boomers are going to put a heck of a strain on healthcare. I fear things will get much worse. I'm done here. This post has gone on long enough. Barring flaming or something egregious, I don't intend to comment further on this thread. It has already taken too much of my time. I sincerely wish the best for you & your wife & hope that things start looking up for you both very soon. Meanwhile, I'll be in the Olds forum waiting to talk about cars! Chuck

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rawja</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you like going to the DMV, spending time at the Social Security Administration, or dealing with the IRS, you're going to LOVE nationalized healthcare. Be careful what you wish for...</div></div> Nonsense. </div></div> Roger, you can't meaningfully contradict someone once they've drunk the <span style="font-style: italic">Fox News</span> Kool-Aid. (See above.) People have been told what and who to believe under the guise of straightforward information. It was just too easy. Thought is a lost art in much of America. </div></div> Gentlemen, I'm rather taken aback at your rude & callous dismissals of someone who dares to express an opinion contrary to your own. Let's see: I'm full of "nonsense," & I'm apparently a knuckle-dragging dolt who subsists on spoon-fed information provided by the media. I have been in practice for 10 years as an anesthesiologist. My wife is an operating room nurse. Rather than sitting around scratching our behinds & drinking "the Fox News Kool-Aid," we work every day in the health care trenches trying to do our best for our patients. My opinions regarding nationalized health care are based on a career's worth of experience, not that that should alter my right to voice them without being dismissed as a fool. I respect your right to disagree with me, but you can do a lot better than flinging insults..... or can't you? Chuck

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Braverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how different the situation would be, if instead of spending $750 billion to bailout various US industries, the government just provided free health care to everyone like they do in every other industrialized nation? </div></div> If you like going to the DMV, spending time at the Social Security Administration, or dealing with the IRS, you're going to LOVE nationalized healthcare. Be careful what you wish for... Chuck

Ultimately my attorney sent the state a copy of the appraisal along with a letter requesting either an administrative hearing or an outright dismissal. It's been over nine months & I've heard nothing more from them. The appraiser told me that he's involved with several such Illinois Department of Revenue fishing expeditions each year. Apparently when you "win," the state quietly moves on to easier targets without further acknowledgement, so I guess it will be awhile till I receive my official letter of apology & offer to reimburse my unnecessary expenses.... <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocketraider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What frightens me is that we may ALL get a taste of their style of government soon.</div></div> You don't know the half of it. Illinois is a cesspool. A lot of folks are in for a rude awakening when they receive the "change" that's coming. Chuck

Thanks for the input, Bob. What's really throwing me is the "N" prefix. According to the service manuals in my collection, the Starfire engines in '61-2 had a "G" prefix & an "S" suffix. Skyrocket engines as found in the Super 88 & Ninety Eight had only the "G" prefix. 88 engines for these years had an "F" prefix, while the low-compression, green version also had an "L" suffix. Furthermore, 1962 engine numbers began at 300001. The number on this particular engine is too low for 1962, yet the "N" prefix doesn't fit with any 1959-61 394 that's documented in the service manuals. Chuck

I recently looked at an interesting '62 Starfire coupe. The car was built in Southgate, CA & was extremely early production: Body #150, built in the second week of September, 1961. The car was originally Heather Mist with a white roof. The engine number on the driver's head was N213396. No question about it. The passenger-side head was blank. The engine was definitely '62 or older, & sported a correct 1962 PCV setup typical of many (or all?) California-built cars. That number doesn't fit with any '59-64 394 codes. Could it be another service head perhaps? Any thoughts? Chuck

Wow- good eye on those wheelcovers, Glenn! I couldn't figure out what they were from: http://www.hub-caps.com/Ford/BU10684.html I'm amazed the car still has 14" wheels. Gee, it's looking better every day.... Chuck

This isn't the same trim. The trim on the Florence Henderson car actually outlined the cove & had a different profile. The extra trim on this car is simply framing the existing aluminum panels. Look at where the trim comes together at the back of the rear quarter. There's no finishing piece capping it off, instead it just butts together. This stuff looks like the peel-and-stick plastic trim they sell by the foot at J.C. Whitney. Given everything else wrong with the car, I have little doubt that this is the case. This car is a disaster. We could have a contest to find all of the stuff that's wrong with it. I contacted the seller to find out more about this car when it first appeared on Ebay several weeks ago. He sent me the tag info. It's a California-built Starfire, body #223, built in the first week of March, 1961. The car codes for a red interior & white top. Paint code is SL: Autumn Mist lower body with Garnet Mist wheelcovers. An Autumn Mist '61 Starfire is my holy grail of Starfires. I've never seen one, nor have I heard of one floating around anywhere. Unfortunately, this car is painted the wrong color, it has the wrong interior, AND it has the wrong engine. That's not mentioning all of the other stuff that's either incorrect or missing. It's a damned shame. The icing on the cake is that the seller thinks he has a showcar on his hands and wants almost $70K for it! Mine must be worth at least twice that... I'd leap at the opportunity to get my hands on a genuine Autumn Mist '61 Starfire to match my '61 Ninety Eight convertible, but this guy is so out of line it's not even funny. I hope no one out there is dumb enough to overpay for something like this, but I suppose there's an ass for every seat. How could some of these classic car dealers stay in business if folks weren't gullible? Chuck

To celebrate the Olds forum catharsis that Paul & I have recently undergone, I introduce my new avatar illustrating my '61 Starfire AND my new forum name (which may appear familiar): Starfire61 I don't recall why I signed up as 61Oldsguy anyway- Starfire61 has been my Ebay name for the last nine years, & I've used it on several other forums, too. I've intended to make this change for awhile. Thanks to Oldsfan for giving me a reason! Chuck

Glenn beat me to the punch! Civility in the Olds world is clearly the norm... Paul, are you looking for something to moderate? Be careful what you wish for. Normally, I wouldn't expect you to seek out such potential conflict. I think I participated in another Olds forum somewhere that needed some moderating... perhaps we can recruit some of their more normal guys to post over here? BTW, a leakdown test can definitely give you a good idea of what may be wrong, all without having to take anything apart. Chuck

When I was in high school in around 1981, a tired, '62 Olds Starfire convertible appeared in a local used car lot for the princely sum of somewhere between $500-1000. My dad had a '62 88 when I was little, so I was somewhat familiar with the big Olds of the early '60s, but I'd never seen a Starfire convertible before. The car was painted a beautiful shade of metallic blue called Wedgewood Mist; I later learned that this color was used to illustrate the Starfire convertible in the '62 Olds catalog. Anyway, I fell in love with this car & had visions of fixing it up with my dad, driving it in the homecoming parade, going to prom, & doing lots of high school cruising with my friends in my big blue convertible. Unfortunately, my dad thought the idea of his high school kid buying a nearly 20 year-old convertible was about the dumbest thing he'd ever heard. He said I'd never get parts, it burned too much gas, nobody'd ever want a big, gaudy, outdated car like a Starfire convertible, etc. We fought about that car like banshees, but he wouldn't budge. One day it was gone. I was crushed. I never found out what happened to it. Over 25 years later, I found another Wedgewood Mist '62 Starfire convertible. It's a bit tired, but it's MINE. Someday I hope to make a showpiece out of it, but for now I enjoy it the way it is. I'm grateful that my dad lived long enough to drive it. If I could just track down some of those chicks from high school.... Chuck

Thanks a lot for the info- Did they have high & low compression versions of the 2bbl in '63-4, or was there just one 2bbl engine available? Chuck

I'm trying to ID a 394 engine that has the front cover & water pump consistent with 1963-4. I don't have the appropriate literature covering those years. The number on the head boss is 090774. There does not appear to be a prefix or suffix. Any ideas? Thanks! Chuck

Looks great- I like the blackwalls a lot! Another voice from the north... Chuck

Nice job! These are both yours??? I can't stop buying 'em either. Where are you located? Chuck

Try looking at commercial condos. They're popping up all over the place & are considerably cheaper than buying a whole building. I bought a 2400 square foot unit on the east side of Batavia, right near the Kane County Cougars stadium. I live in Wheaton, so it's about a 20 minute ride for me. Beats the heck out of paying rent! If I had more money, I'd have bought two of them, or at least a bigger one. I could have filled the whole thing with other people's cars... all by word of mouth. I found mine using Loopnet- it's an online clearinghouse for commercial real estate. http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Search/ForSale.aspx?linkcode=330 You can pay a bunch of money & subscribe to a premium membership, but I didn't bother with it. I just kept looking until I found something promising, called the realtor, & things progressed from there. With the market being bad, there are a lot of these sitting empty. You could probably get a good deal, especially on one that has been previously occupied. There are so many brand new ones available that price is the only incentive to buy used. Chuck

I did make it. I almost didn't attend because of the weather. The storm out to the west was something fierce- we had lots of branches down & our power was out for several hours. A couple of friends who were already at the show called & said that there was a decent turnout of cars & the skies looked to be clearing, so I took a chance & went. I didn't take my Starfire, because I didn't want to drive it in the rain, so I took my '61 Ninety Eight instead. It's not quite as nice a car, but most people there wouldn't be able to tell the difference. They just fit me onto the apron in front of Bloomingdale's, as that area was quite full by 10AM. It turned out to be a very nice day after all. I'll also try posting a few pics later. Chuck

I'll be there in the non-Classic section with a '61 Olds. Please stop by & say hello! Chuck

I've had a couple GM convertibles of this vintage. I don't think anybody anticipated those hydraulic top systems would last 40+ years with no service. Invariably, the cylinders go bad & the lines & pump get clogged with congealed oil & other crud. If the system's filled with brake fluid, over the years it pull in moisture just as it does with your brakes. I'd guess your top system is near the end of its useful life. Your best bet is to replace the lines & cylinders with new ones & rebuild the pump. Anything short of a new, clean system means that you could have old fluid & debris floating around to mess up any new components. New components also give you the opportunity to switch over to transmission fluid. I did this over a decade ago with my '61 Starfire & have since had no trouble with it whatsoever. The pumps are fairly straightforward to service yourself- there are some little ball bearing check valves that you have to try not to lose, & the brushes are a bear to reinstall, but that's about it. Don't even bother messing with the cylinders & hoses- just replace them. When you disassemble the hoses & cylinders, make sure to note which side of the pump supplies which sides of the cylinders, otherwise the functions of your Up-Down switch may be reversed! I've gotten a few sets of cylinders & hoses from Hydro-E-Lectric & had very good results with them. http://www.hydroe.com/ Again, if you go through the effort of replacing the hoses & cylinders, be sure to go through the pump. There are some very fine channels in there that can easily clog. You can buy a new one, but they're pretty expensive & there's really no reason to- over 40+ years how much wear could be on a convertible top pump...perhaps an hour or two of total running time? Your service manual should have a series of diagrams that show how the pump is put together. Anybody with a minimal amout of mechanical aptitude should be able to do it. Just make sure you disassemble it in a clean, uncluttered area. You'll need to replace some O-rings, too. The only other pitfall are the reservoir seals- I think I re-used my old ones & added some permatex to them- they're still leak free years later. You can assemble the pump, new hoses, & new cylinders outside the car as a unit, fill it, hook it to a battery & run it in & out for bleeding & leak testing, and THEN install the whole assembly back into the car. You'll minimize the likelihood of spilling fluid all over your car, you'll save yourself a lot of aggravation, & you'll be fairly certain that the top is going to work fine before you install everything back on the car. Good Luck! Chuck