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Dave Mitchell

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    Custom bodied Packards

    in Packard

    Posted

    When I was at Tom Mix's, he had photo albums of some of the hundreds of cars that he had owned and it was truly amazing. One that I have never heard of surviving was a 32 Twin Six vee windshield Deitrich runabout/coupe roadster. It must be out there somewhere. I think he owned it in the 50s or 60s.

    Custom bodied Packards

    in Packard

    Posted

    I really like that town car. I have seen photos of that body on Packards and other makes also, but I am not sure that I have seen one that has survived. I remember Bill Mc Dowell at Packard Farm telling me about a 34 12 town car that he tried to sell for years and finally parted it out because no one wanted it. I like the blackwall tires and square trunk - and the bail cap would look good too. The painted shutters are interesting too.

    I think that the Mix sport brougham went to New Hampshire. There used to be a silver one with air conditioning in Florida, but I don't know where it went after the death of the owner. I wonder if it was silver when new, I think that the owner in Florida bought it out of New Jersey. Mine was originally silver also. I really like the maroon. Does Steve Wolfe still own his? I met him years ago and he seems like a great guy.

    Custom bodied Packards

    in Packard

    Posted

    I really like both the 37 Rollstons and have seen both in person, and the photos don't do them justice.

    The Kirchoff is unusual and has Murphy influence - does that car still exist?

    I too have heard of a 38 Rollston convertible victoria, but I have never seen it.

    The Murphy town car too is better in person.

    I haven't seen a factory custom top hat car, but I am not surprised. How are the proportions in real life? I guess that it doesn't look as good as the normal 1108.

    Thanks for the photos - keep them coming!

    Custom bodied Packards

    in Packard

    Posted

    Great photos! Keep them coming. Is the Franay fully collapsable or a town car? I remember one that Bob Titlow in Indiana restored in the late 80s or early 90s - I think it ended up in California, done in pale yellow and black. Is the 236 Steve Babisky's car? Nice car too. The 40 Derham is a really interesting car. The Grabers are all interesting - I haven't seen a photo of the blue one before - is it still in the US? The 38 120 I saw at Pebble, and it is a great car. I personally think that he should have cleaned the dirt and certainly the bird droppings off the car. I have judged that class in the past and I don't think that is appropriate. I heard that he was asking $1.2 million for it.

    I am restoring the 38 Derham now and have letters between Derham and the man who commissioned the car. A lot of the chrome is painted (he even specified painting the gas cap black)and there are covers, but he wanted to see it without before putting them on. It is a lwb 1608. We are putting it back as it was when new.

    The Waterhouse is lost - it belonged to the American ambassador to Stockholm, and was stolen - the theives thought better of it once they found out who it belonged to and parked it out on the ice and left it. The ice gave way and it probably still rests in Lake Malaren. Lacking Clive Cussler's budget, I haven't tried to find it.

    1936 or 1937 Packard?

    in Packard

    Posted

    Steve, is your friend with the 37 named John and maybe owned a cab company in CT? I remember buying parts from him and a friend of his from RI years ago at Hershey. A really nice guy. Good to hear he is still around if that is the guy.

    Ken, recoring the radiator is always well spent money. I am not sure that the 37 would be more expensive than the 36 if they were of equal quality. There are fewer of the 36s around. I too like both. I think that the 36s are a bit more "elegant" with the wire wheels and big bumpers, but perhaps the 37s are a bit nicer to drive with the hydraulic brakes and independent front suspension.

    1936 or 1937 Packard?

    in Packard

    Posted

    The more you drive and enjoy your car, the less the cost of that rebuild will bother you. When these cars are right, they put a smile on your face every time you drive them.

    That is unfortunate about your crank. I am surprised that it had to be ground a second time - maybe they didn't get it right the first time. We have put new babbit in numerous 12s, 8s and as well as my V16 and have had no problems. I don't recall the 32 cranks - some later cars have a baffle at the rear main or sort of reverse thread that should push the oil back in, but some early engines don't have much compared to the newer 8s. We put modern seals in the front cover of the 12s because the original seals aren't that good. We always run the engines on the stand before putting them in them in to find and fix any leaks, but that isn't always easy to do, and it can be hard to see the leaks in the car.

    I think I met your local guy about 10 years ago when I was in Portland and I have an engine that he did some time back. It is sad to lose those guys.

    1936 or 1937 Packard?

    in Packard

    Posted

    There are some things simpler on the 8s, some about the same - one thing that gets expensive is grinding the crankshaft rod journals because the counterweights have to come off, since they overlap the journals just like a 12, and there are more weights and journals on an 8. There are fewer bearings, but we do them the same, and if the mains need to be done, the number of bearings is the same. There are still rollers to rebuild in the valve train, but no silencers, but on the other hand once the valves are adjusted on a 12, you are pretty much done, you won't have to adjust them again, which you will on the 8, and it isn't that much fun to do. The oiling system is about the same, and original steel strut aluminum pistons are hard to find, so custom pistons are still there. The bore is perpendicular to the block in an 8, which makes it a little easier, but the 8 blocks are much more likely to crack in my experience, which means you may have to spend a lot on having it hot welded to save it. The 8 heads are available reproduction or you can find originals (I have an extra HC original big 8 head for instance), but they are subject to warping and you have to spend money to recondition them. The 8 manifolds are pretty fragile (much moreso than the 12s) and even the intakes are subject to internal failure. The bolt ons are about the same, and in fact the 8 carbs are pretty rare and very expensive - both the Detroits and the EE 22s and just as much or more trouble to rebuild. I don't think anyone is reproducing the distributor caps for 8s, but they are a bit cheaper than 12s, and the distributors are about the same to set up. So, yes, the machine work may end up cheaper, as well as parts since you have fewer cylinders, and the valve train is less complex. Unfortunately a lot of the guys who know these engines are retiring or we are losing them. I am very lucky to have a great mechanic working with me in my shop who is in his 70s and has been working on Packards for 50 years, but there aren't that many of those guys around for whom this is second nature. I am not by any means saying that the 12s are better than the 8s, I like them both, and have both, but I the first post asked about 12s.

    1936 or 1937 Packard?

    in Packard

    Posted

    Coker supplies a Goodrich 8.25 - 16 tire that is a very good bias tire and period correct, much better than the old straight tread tires often seen on older restorations of 37 - 39 12s, which were oversize and the whitewalls were much larger than what was supplied in 37 - 39. I am not aware of a correct Dunlop. The Michelin radials I used were very close to original specs in terms of crosssection and diameter. They are light truck tires, not low profile car tires, and look fine in the wheel opening, and also fit the original sidemount covers. I had good rims, done well and didn't need tubes in the radials. I completely rebuilt the front end from replicating the special export springs to custom made kingpins, and I felt that it drove better with the radials, but I did a lot of long trips in all types of weather (other than winter). They aren't bad with bias either though, so if you want to show the car too, bias is the way to go. There are a number of 750 - 17 bias tires available appropriate for the earlier 12s as well as the Michelin radials.

    In my experience, most 12s, even closed cars, had 4.41 rear axles, which is better than the 4.69 - (I did have a car originally equiped with that, but it was sold new in Denver). It is true that switching to the 4.09 or adding overdrive will make it a better long distance cruiser, but I have also put a lot of highway miles on a 7 pass sedan with a 4.41. If you ask 20 guys what to do with the rod bearings, you will get at least 15 different answers. I don't want to say that any one is better than any other, but I have put the bearings in a number of these back to babbit and put lots of high speed miles on them and had no problems at all. I would say that you need to have someone who really knows these engines do the rebuild, because there are more things than the bearings that can cause failure - the tolerances are very tight on this engine and need to be set up exactly. Does your rebuilder have an assortment of crankshaft end play adjustment shims? How many valve blocks have they redone? I have seen more 12s with valve train or cylinder bore/piston wear problems than with rod bearing failure. Sure parts are expensive, but so are parts for Super 8s, or Cad 16s, or Hispano Suizas, Mercedes Benz, Pierce Arrow or other top end cars. Parts for modern cars are expensive too. Price a head light or tail light unit for your daily driver sometime, or worse yet a computer module. The expensive things on a 12 are repro heads, timing cover, custom pistons, correct carb, distributor cap and bolt on items (depending on the year, some worse than others), machine work, and chrome, but these are almost the same for 35/36 or 37 - 39.

    1936 or 1937 Packard?

    in Packard

    Posted

    It has been a couple of years since I bought the radials, but I think they were 245/75-16 Michelin LTX AS. I had a set of blackwalls on my 1508 sedan, and had Diamondback put whitewalls on a set for a 1708 conv sedan for a friend. I put about 20K miles on the 37 with them on. You have to run about 45 - 50 psi in them though. You can match the crosssection and diameter pretty closely. I have 750 - 17 Michelin XCAs on my 34 V16 Cad and they are so much better than bias tires on that heavy car.

    It is true that finding a car with an engine that is done is a good idea. If the engine on a 12 hasn't been done, it probably soon will need to be, unless the car has had very good care and very low miles. There aren't that many people who really know Packard 12 engines correctly and it is best to find one done by that handful of guys who know what they are doing, or you will probably be spending more money to fix it right. There is no good way to do that engine on the cheap. If someone says the engine is rebuilt, ask to see the bills and make sure what has been done and who did it. That is probably more important than what year you get, at least if you are going to drive it, which is the fun of having a 12.

    1936 or 1937 Packard?

    in Packard

    Posted

    Both are great cars - I own cars from each series. There are subtle styling differences depending on body style, and preference there probably comes down to individual preference. Some Packard guys won't hardly look at the 37s and newer, and feel that the 35/36s are closer to the 32 - 34s, some guys won't drive anything without hydraulic brakes, and I feel both viewpoints are shortsighted. The power brakes on the 35/36s are fine as long as they are set up and adjusted properly. Some parts for the earlier cars are more expensive, possibly because there were a lot more 37s built than 35/36s combined. One thing that makes the 37/39s a little easier to drive is that they have 825 - 16 tires on 8 in wide rims. Radial tires are available for both the 16 and 17 inch rims however. The 35/36s have the nice big, but also very expensive weighted bumpers. The Bijur system is easy to maintain once it is cleaned and put in working order if it isn't ok. The adjustable shocks are nice, and disappear on the 37s, but you probably won't really miss that. The engines and transmisions are almost identical, so the big difference is in the front suspension, and to be honest the best handling cars seem to me to be the 38/39s as the balance is even better with the motor moved up on the front crossmember and the wheelbase shortened. Dave packard12s@hotmail.com

    High Speed Gears -- 3.0 to 1?

    in CCCA - Tech Questions

    Posted

    It is much more likely that it is a 3.58 set that was made by Phil Hill. The 734 speedster series used a 3.3 I think, which is the closest that I know of, but those are very rare. If you are in flat country, it will probably do it since that is a short wheelbase car. I have driven a 1401 with a 3.58 and it was fine. If you are in the hills, you probably would want at least a Super for that.

    1934 and 1936 Packard 12s for sale

    in Packard - Buy/Sell

    Posted

    Hi David, Missed seeing you at Hershey, hope all is ok with you. The cars are great, but I can't take any credit, they belong to and were restored by a good friend, Tom Moretti. He wants to sell a couple and I am helping him. We have been friends for about 20 years and he does great work, most of it himself. I like all the cars, but probably the 36 coupe roadster is my favorite of these, but it is hard to choose. The cars look even better in person than in photos by the way.

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