Dave Mitchell
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Posts posted by Dave Mitchell
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I will add that I think Herman Ahrens of DB was one of the greatest auto designers of all time. His clean lines and excellent proportions on both the big and small cars are fabulous. The special roadsters and special coupes are incredible cars, as well as normal roadsters and the cabriolets. The lines are great even on the big 770s and the sedans.
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Ed, I look forward to any more photos you can post. I think that the chrome shells were more popular in the 30s than we now think, it is just that most cars have been painted when they were restored. I know of a few cars that never left the US that still have chrome shells. One is a 39 12 convertible sedan that still has original paint - when I first saw the car I didn't care for the chrome shell, but the car was in my shop for a while when we did the engine and some other work ot it and after a while it grew on me and if I were to restore that car, I would leave the shell chrome. It is rather "over the top", but it is the way that it was when new. I know at least one other 39 12 convertible sedan had a chrome shell when new and was not an export car. I think that a lot of export cars had chrome shells though, even after 34. There were 3 39 Super 8s delivered to the Royal family in Stockholm and 2 of them had chrome shells. If you think of Horch and especially Mercedes Benz, they kept the chrome shells, so in Europe, it was accepted. Perhaps it is the same in India.
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I think really good Dietrichs have hit 2+ million. One just went for 1.8 and it was an old restoration. Good Supers have hit more that 1 million. The multiplier may actually be correct or even low if one of the Le Baron phaetons came up for sale, but the coupes don't seem to bring $3mill or more. I would also say that there are a number of replica Dietrichs. It seems like several people have owned one and suddenly found another one in a barn or maybe two. There are new runabout/convertible coupes, phaetons and convertible victorias and also upgrades from 8s to
12s. There is nothing wrong about that until someone tries to pass one off as real or when eventually someone forgets. When one of the fakes comes up for sale, it sometimes brings less, unless there is an uneducated buyer in the crowd.
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Anybody ever see a photo of this Packard?
Great photos Ed. Are they taken in India? I love the one with the elephants. I am guessing that this could be a Rollston body. I know they built a few phaetons in 37 and at least 2 survive and both are Super 8s, so it would make sense that this was another in that group. The chrome grill shell is typical of export cars - that and the lights would indicate it was a special order. If it is one of the Rollstons, perhaps other customers saw this car being built or when it was done and ordered similar bodies.
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Physical differences aside, it looks like stitched-on wings on his jacket -- a decoration I'm pretty sure Ike didn't have, in addition to the fact I don't think any U.S. class A uniform would have had. So far as I know, all U.S. wings on a dress uniform would have been pin-on. The general cut and style looks very British.
I'd have to agree that I never saw US wings that weren't pin on even in museums, and I know from my dad's uniforms that they were pin on in WWII. However, the insignia on the hat looks US to me.
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Mercedes Benz # 904 dark blue is a great color. I have used it on three cars and still like it.
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Jan Melin is my hero! Is he going to write a 3rd installment I hope? quote
A. J. - I agree. If you ever have the chance to meet him in person you will agree he is one of the nicest people on the planet, besides being the top automotive historian. His knowledge is incredible and the scope of it truly amazing. His dedication to finding the absolute facts and never, ever saying something is true that he hasn't with his own eyes seen proof of (and then verified it and crossreferenced it) all the while never making a dime from the information he had, is just something I have never encountered before. I have met a lot of historians (both real and self proclaimed) automotive and otherwise, but he is the best, and Jan Stroman is right there with him, although not as famous. Jan Melin assembled everything for 2 more books, but was unable to find a publisher for them due to the economy. Daimler Benz historical now has the material and I really, really hope that they are smart enough to publish both of them. I have seen the period photos that he selected and anyone who likes old cars would love the books, not just MB guys.
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The story of how I got the Norrmalm car is rather long, but the short version is that in 1989 I was in Sweden for a couple months in the summer and I went to a swap meet where I met some Packard guys. They convinced me that I could bring Packard parts when I came to Sweden and I joined the Nordic Packard Owners Club. In the roster I saw the car I remembered from the Phau book, but it took me 3 years to actually find the owner and yet another year before he offered to sell me the car, rather than have me restore it for him as he had originally asked. It was in pieces in the basement garage of a hotel right in the city of Stockholm. The third owners were 18 year old engineering students who had taken the car apart in 1961. I spent a couple of months assembling the car so I could put it in a container and ship it home. The best thing about that was the time that I spent there was terrific and I made several new friends, including the man who I bought the car from and two great historians, Jan Stroman and Jan Melin, who have remained friends to the present day. I was also lucky to meet a man who worked on the car when it was built and learn a lot about the car, the owner, and the coachbuilder. I met the son of the man who designed it and I have driven the exact road from Stockholm to Sodertalje where the car was taken for the first drive when the body was completed. That is the very, very short version of the story.
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Packard12man, welcome to the thread, great photos of the 34 coupes. It would be fun to find one sitting in a field like that.
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Hmmm, I can't think of a Bohman boat tail. I'd like to see a photo of it.
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I think it is in Milan, Italy and the car belonged to Count Felice Trossi, aristocratic racing driver and car guy. I am not sure if the house is his or he just parked the car there for a photo, the notes on the back of the photo say it is his home. It would be interesting to know if this is one of the 34s that survive. I know of 3, but perhaps this one is still hidden away in Italy. Perhaps it was at one time sitting in his garage next to his SSK. A nice pair of cars.
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Wow - really unique and attractive. One thing that this this thread has done for me is give me more of an appreciation for the European coachwork, which I just have not seen enough of in person, but hope to in time...
What is the color scheme now, Dave? I would think that black and red would work well on that beautiful design.
You are welcome to come and see me if you are ever in the midwest. I will put this back as close as possible to the way it was when new, black with red leather, chrome shell and wheels. The car is very well documented.
Having had a very formal one off custom limo for 20 years, as well as the just as exotic - but much sportier - Norrmalm car, I can tell you that a lot of Packard guys really only like the Packard or Packard semi custom cataloged cars and don't pay much attention to the one off customs. I like the one offs because I think that is one thing that sets the cars of the classic era apart.
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So Dave, when will you be ready for Pebble Beach?
I love European bodies on American Chassis. There were many great European Chassis but relatively few with large engines. The tight cabriolet tops on the European bodies make the cars look better with the top (or boot) up then down. This is opposite of the American bodies (see the Darrin Victoria as a golden example).
Just now I am busy working on customer cars, so I am not sure when I will have mine done, but I make some progress now and then, so it will be a while.
I too like European bodies on American chassis, and you are right, very few ended up on the 12 or 16 cylinder chassis. The man who ordered the 1408 was so wealthy that the increased tax on the big engine didn't faze him. I met several members of his family and was able to ask his son why they didn't buy a Mercedes or Horch - he said that first of all they had owned Packards and loved them and second, they wanted an American car because they were more exotic and the V12 was more exclusive and offered great performance while still very reliable. Here we think of the MB as the more exotic car, so that was a bit of a surprise for me. For them the Packard was a foreign car.
I like this car with the top down also, even though it does stack up pretty high, it has the drop in the beltline that lowers it some, and it has such a great interior that it is nice to show it off. The top is so well built and is so balanced (with helper springs) that I can put it up and down by myself.
I like the rear treatment a lot with the rake of the bumper and dual rear spares.
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Dave, your cabriolet looks identical to the one shown on page 221 of Pfau's The Coachbuilt Packard. Same car?
Not sure of the page number, but it is the same car. Phau misidentified it as a 38 120. The car is so big it fills the street. That is from the day that the 3rd owners brought it home and I have other photos taken then.
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What was the reason for the 1" wider rims?
I was lucky to meet a man who worked on the car when it was built and the son of the original owner was into technology and performance and more or less like today, he wanted a wider wheel to put more tire on the ground. This is a big, heavy car, and the wider wheels can't hurt.
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OK. Here are 3 photos taken in the 1950s. The second spare is not on and the leather top has been replaced, but you get the idea. The car was black with red leather and the radiator shell was originally chromed and is again now. The hood was lengthened about 8 inches. Norrmalm started with a chassis, with some special order items like wheels that were specially made 1 inch wider than standard. To give you an idea of the scale - the doors are 5 feet long.
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A.J. - it is a 36 1408 with a body by Norrmalm of Stockholm. I was sort of not putting pictures of my cars here, so it doesn't look like I am trying to promote myself. I just love the cars and really like customs, and there were some great ones on Packard chassis. If you email me, I will send you photos. packard12s@hotmail.com
I think the black top would have been good too. Honestly the Darrins look best with the top down though. It would be nice to see it with blackwalls.
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I don't know the LeBaron in the Pray collection. I think that there are 4 or 5 real phaetons - Bob Bahre, Bob Lee, Nethercutt collection, Harry Yeagy own ones that I can think of off hand. The Bahre car is original and the Nethercutt probably the newest restoration. There are more repros than originals I think.
The Vee windhshield Dietrichs from 32 - 34 are in the Duesenberg price class - they often sell for over $1 million. One just sold for 1.76, and it isn't a new or perfect restoration.
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I love town cars without quarter windows and padded tops.
West, have you seen my Cad?
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Dave, in my recently published work on the Packard body dash numbers (thief-proof numbers), there are several 1936 Twelve Dietrichs with 1935 body numbers and 1935 Dietrich numbers, but the cars were freshened to 1936 details and titled as 1936 cars. So the 1935 Twelves must have sold at lower rates than original expectations.
Where was your work on the numbers published? I must have missed it, but would like to read it.
I think that 34 was a big sales year for 12s, and 35 is like 38, after 37 when they sold 1500 12s, it took a bite out of the next year's sales - there were only so many people who could afford a car in that price class. 38 was also a big recession year, not sure about 35. Packard buyers were most likely conservative, but if you look at Cad styling vs Packard the 34 Cad is much more modern - with front fenders that Packard didn't adopt until 38, so maybe it just took Packard buyers a couple more years to get used to the streamlined styling of the 35 - 37s (compared to the 34s).
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Great photo of Ted with the 34 LeBaron phaeton. That could be another custom bodied Packard on the other side of it. $8500 isn't much compared to the millions it would bring today, but at the time you probably could have gotten a Model J for that price too or a Type 57 Bugatti. I think that even now this would bring more than all but the best Model Js though.
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I like all the Darrins. I was surprised at the relatively cheap price of the Clark Gable car last year. Perhaps because it was on the 120 chassis?
Impressive row of Darrins. I like the colors on your dad's car, particularly the top. Not everyone knows that you could get several different top colors from Packard, even back into the 30s. For some reason the 40s with the Darrin body look just a little better than the 41s to me. (and I like 41 Packards, have had 4 and still have 2)
How much did the Gable car go for? It had a 37 steering wheel and 39 instruments, and didn't seem to be a high quality restoration. At least 2 other cars are claimed to be the Gable Darrin - not that O'Quinn would have been lead down the path to buying something that wasn't well researched as to its history... And this may well be the real Gable Darrin, but when they use the word "reportedly" rather than giving the documentation it makes you wonder. Either way, I still think it is a good looking car. I thought that prices were soft at Monterey. The one night I went to RM they were having trouble selling cars.
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Here is a custom-bodied Packard that appeared in a 1976 movie - IMCDb.org: 1939 Packard unknown in "Dracula père et fils, 1976" - I guess the body is European.
Great car! Perhaps a Franay body, I like the window frame treatment. Good spotting. The body works well on this chassis.
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West, you would post a picture of a Packard coupe with wide white walls -- and double WWW no less? The picture looks like the tire might even have a seperate white stripe on the side, although that could be a shadow - kind of like the double band and tripple band www tires in the 60's and 70's.
I think that is just the raised rub strip - but I really like the details in the sidewall design and how they extended the diamond pattern onto the side. I wish they would reproduce some great tires like these. This was undoubtedly a special order car, right down to the tires. Also the white wall isn't as wide as you see on some of the repro tires now. I have a very old Vogue 825 - 16, double white which probably was original equipment and the sidewalls are really elaborate as well as different front and back. I bet people would buy them if they were reproduced. It is really neat.
PreWar Mercedes Benz
in CCCA - General
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Rudi Caracciola's 500K special coupe, one of my favorite cars.