Dave Mitchell
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Posts posted by Dave Mitchell
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Derham roadster
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Here's a photo I took at an AACA meet in Tennessee in 1962. What body is this? Is it still with us?
Don
That is an interesting car and undoubtedly very expensive when new and certainly custom. The landaulet town car was usually the most expensive body you could get, and was reserved for the very rich. I have only seen a few Packards with this body. One was either an 840 or 845 in Huntsville, AL in a big collection and needed a total restoration. I hope someone is doing that car. There are a handful of the 38/39 12 Brunns with this basic style body too.
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Great story!
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I wasn't aware that the 745's had "Custom by Packard."
I have seen the tags on one original roadster and one phaeton. Since you can buy the tags, I am not sure you can count on what you see on restored cars.
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Not an easily definable line. According to Hugo Pfau, Packard had no facilities for the custom body work, and leased a portion of the Murray plant. This company owned Dietrich, and was also building the the Packard standard bodies at the same time as the full customs. Also, LeBaron-Detroit built cars, such as the 1934 LeBaron coupes, but were badged "Custom by Packard."
Also, didn't Packard own the Connersville plant that built the Darrins from 1940?-42?
One problem that I've always had with Hugo Pfau's book is that it actually creates more questions than it answers. Too much wrong or bad information can and has been read between the lines. I wish that whoever edited that book would have asked some more questions.
Unfortunately the Pfau book has a number of errors. Ralph Roberts told me stories about Pfau and thought he did good work, but that a lot of his information came from period magazines or personal memories which weren't always accurate.
If we accept that Packard didn't have custom body shops, then all the semi customs came from outside the house, which makes the numbers even higher. Where do you think the 34 LeBarons were really built? If they are badged Custom by Packard, then we have to wonder where any of the Custom by Packard bodies were built. Maybe it didn't matter to Packard, especially since the numbers were so low, they would sell no matter whose badge was on them. The 734s were certainly done in low numbers, but the 745 open cars carried Custom by Packard tag also didn't they, and far more of those were built, so does that mean they are Murray? Perhaps the "Custom by Packard" refers to the design being done in house. I wouldn't be surprised by that, even for the 34 coupes. I have read that those were built after Ed Macauley saw an autobahn courier 500K on European trip.
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I wouldn't say it is an odd color - just maroon, which was a color that MB had in the 30s. It just isn't red, silver or black, so perhaps unusual. The one that is odd to me is the repop one that is white. I did take the photo of the Lyon car at Pebble. I'd have to ask Jan about when the fenders were changed or if the red ones were from the factory.
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A J, the Erdmann and Rossi and Windovers photos don't come up for me - are they there?
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Dave
When you say "body by Packard" are you also referring to the ones that say "Custom by Packard"?
Right. Wouldn't you say those were in house bodies? I would certainly say that they were semi custom cataloged bodies though, not normal production bodies. Where do you think they were built? You can tell on the speedster bodies that trim parts were numbered for the car, just like a custom body.
Just to clarify, I think of Fleetwood as a true coachbuilder, but with a different "status" as they were owned by GM and therefore "in house". My Fleetwood town car is a cataloged semi custom, but certainly built to special order.
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For American cars you're probably right. I'm sure there were more than 480 or so full custom Packards built, so that puts them past Duesenberg. Every single Rolls Royce built before WW II had a full custom body, so I think if you count European marques, Rolls would have to win. By the way, I don't count the flat windshield Dietrichs or Fleetwood Cadillacs as customs either.
I will have to look up Rolls production numbers, but you could well be right. Wasn't Park Ward an in house or owned shop? Perhaps that wasn't until post war.
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One thing this thread has made me think about is whether more custom bodies were built on Packard chassis than any other. What do you think? Cadillac did their best to keep most customs in house with Fleetwood, so if we equate Fleetwood with the in house "body by Packard" and flat windshield Dietrichs, what do you think? Most European cars were built in much lower numbers, even if they were all custom bodied (such as Hispano Suizas). Also Packard's conservative styling worked well with custom bodies much later than it would with other chassis. Packard also made bare chassis (or with fenders and cowl etc) available and even published prices for them. They also encouraged customs by ordering small series of bodies and sometimes even putting them in their sales catalogs or printing catalogs just for those semi customs. How many other car companies did this?
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Rollston/Rollson did a lot of great cars and because of that outlasted most coachbuilders. I wonder how many Packards they did. They even did town cars on the Jr chassis from the mid thirties to the early 40s.
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Quote : Here are some pictures of the first version of 500k Special Roadster. These pictures were found in a trash bin and posted on the Hamb. They were taken before WWII.
This early special roadster is just phenominal. If you look at each "version" of the special roadster and put it in context with other cars of the same years, they are all incredible. You look at this one and think - fantastic! - they you look at the next version and think the same thing - and so on... Is one better than the other? They are all awesome in their own way. Is this the car that Bob Friggens owned which is now in Europe?
I really like the photo taken from above.
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I contacted him about 20 years ago and he was very helpful. It would be great if copies of the records were at staffed research libraries like ACD or AACA. That is the sort of thing that it would be great if someone would donate money towards a project of copying them and paying those who have them for that privilege.
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I think that you can get build sheet or at least original owner info from the family on Long Island that owned Rollston.
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My mistake. Chris is the person who explained the funky fuel pump between the seats to me. I was under the impression that the car was owned by Chris's former employer.
I think most people thought that, especially since the owner is very low key. The car certainly suffers a bit stylistically from the bulletproof treatment, but is certainly important historically. An old friend of mine had newspaper clippings featuring the car when it was exhibited around the country even making it to the area of western Illinois where I live on a post war bond sales tour just after the war. I find the color interesting also.
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One of the interesting things to me is that Packard styling could be so conservative and they were still competitive and I would guess that Gubitz was responsible for keeping the cars good looking even when they weren't on the cutting edge of styling. Now people love the 37 seniors, but if you compare them to a 34 Cadillac, they look older.
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Hmmm, the Rollston would be something of an American Cab C...
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I guess I should be paying more attention. This car was sold by RM at Arizona back in January for $220,000. Here is a link to the catalog description.
They provide a history back to the 1980s:
In the 1980s, this car is known to have been part of the collection of the late Sam Vaughan. Following his death, the next owner acquired it from the estate sale. Under their ownership, the Packard was carefully maintained, and it was reported to have performed flawlessly, requiring nothing more than routine maintenance. Since acquisition by the late John M. O'Quinn in 2006, the Packard has benefited from proper storage, and it has seen limited use.
Seems like a reasonable price for a special car, but auction photos can flatter a car. Sometimes when a car is part of a huge collection, it just sits there almost neglected whereas it would be a star in a small collection and get better care.
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Photo 1 and photo 2 are the same photo.
I noticed that as I was posting them, but thought that the one that isn't cropped was interesting to show the photo studio, but the other one showed the car a little better, so I posted both.
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1936 super 8 convertible Victoria. The Dietrich name is there, but by then wasn't this built in Murray's shops?
Yes, I would call this a cataloged semi custom I guess. The open cars did often carry Dietrich tags up to 1936. I think that they were probably designed by Werner Gubitz, as Ray Dietrich had moved on by the time these were designed, but Packard still had the rights to the name. The standard open bodies were very good looking cars I think. I especially like the 35 - 36 roadsters and phaetons. I don't know if the roadsters carried the Dietrich tag, I am pretty sure that the convertible victorias, phaetons, and convertible sedans did. Even the 36/37 120 convertible sedans had it I think.
Why not include these semi customs here?
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Dave - is this the 148" wheelbase or 138"? Looks like the long one with custom long doors, but looks can be decieving...
It is the 148" wheelbase.
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In this case it is a "blackout" driving lamp, to be used in place of the headlights. The car was worked on by Chris Charlton, and was in Maine for some time, but as far as I know is still owned by a Swede.
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I would guess that Gubitz was responsible for the change away from the flat grill. If I recall right, the board of directors had to approve such a big change. By the time the 32s were being designed, Ray Dietrich would have been independent I think. I am not sure where to find more information on Gubitz.
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More from Pebble. Goring's special roadster - with bulletproof glass.
Custom bodied Packards
in Packard
Posted
There was also an open front version of this, and I don't know if those are included in that count. There were fewer done than the ones with just the open back. I don't know what his price is, but it is an interesting car that I would love to have. The problem is that no matter what his price is, the fact that two have sold for $240K proves that you will be upsidedown in this car in no time. On a side note - did someone let their teenage daughter pick a color? Wow.