Dave Mitchell
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Posts posted by Dave Mitchell
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I have a 38 price sheet that lists the "Accessory Group on Eight (120) includes Cigar Lighter, Electric Clock, Deluxe Heater, Dual Defrosters and Deluxe Radiator Emblem. $48.75" There was also a Deluxe Touring Sedan which "includes Flexible Wheel, Trim Rings, Cigar Lighter, Deluxe Emblem, Electric Clock, and White Sidewall Tires." It looks like a six wheel car was $60 more than a 5 wheel, and a Deluxe was about $200 more than the Standard model. If you go the accessory group on a Deluxe, it included the heater and defrosters for $27.80. Each accessory has a separate price also. I think that 39 had a similar scheme, but I haven't found my 39 price sheet yet.
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I agree good trailer brakes with heavy duty axles are a must, as well as a weight distributing hitch and sway bar.
I had a diesel truck and I don't think I would buy one again - the fuel costs more and the gain in mileage wasn't enough to offset it, along with the difficulty of finding fuel. The new generation diesels have lots of power, but the other thing I don't like is the noise.
The 8.1 gas motor won't ever get great mileage when mated to the towing axle ratio. If I were to be really careful on a road trip I might get 15 mpg.
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I'm sure there is an easier way to do this, but if all else fails, email it to yourself. Your email program will ask what size you want to send it and you can choose something that will easily post here. Just save it from the email with a different name. I'm looking forward to seeing it.
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My opinion is that if you are towing a 6000# car, you need to think of safety as well as convenience, and a good package is a full size 3/4 ton pick up or large SUV with a towing package with either a big diesel or big gas V8 with a lot of torque. The next step up is a 1 ton truck such as a pick up with duals. I have towed a 24 foot enclosed trailer with 5 different Chevy Suburbans and now use a 2001 with the 8.1 liter gas V8. I don't think this engine is available now as it was dropped a few years ago, and although it isn't easy on gas, it is great for towing. I don't think that 4wd will help with towing unless you are going to hit a lot of snow, which probably isn't a great idea anyway. The 4wd adds some maintenance and doesn't help fuel economy, so unless you need it when you aren't towing, I wouldn't look for it. You need good brakes, heavy duty roll bars and stiff suspension and plenty of horsepower and torque and the factory tow pack.
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The hood side panels on my 34 Cad were completely plated and then painted so that only the three very small trim strips on the hood vents were exposed. Apparently they thought that was cheaper than making separate hood trim pieces. It really makes the hood heavy as it is a long hood.
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I think you mean 34 not 39.
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Dave, attaching a couple of European one off customs. Both cars are built by a coach builder in Amsterdam by the name of Schutter & Van Bakel. Hard to say if the '34 is an 1107 or 1108 chassis. Surely must have been one of the 1st applications of a sliding sun roof. Pretty neat car. Thought the '38 was somewhat unusual being a two door application on a very formal looking body. I wonder what ever become of them. Enjoy
Thanks for posting these - both very interesting cars. I like 38s especially so I find that one intriguing - and find the two tone fitting for this partiular body as it highlights the design and suits the European nature of it. It does look a bit more formal with the flat windshield. I hope it survives, but I don't know that it does. Hopefully someone will confirm that.
The 34 is a good looking car and I love that sunroof. I do believe that this car survives and I would like to see it in person. It looks very low for a 34. I think it is a 1108. I like sedans a lot, and often the customs have very luxurious interiors and I would like to see a photo of the inside of this car.
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There is documentation in the data books and internal dealer literature on this topic, and sometimes also on price sheets. Special colors, interiors, options etc were available at buyer request and there were charges for this, usually depending on the series. Sometimes on a Twelve it was at no cost. Certainly they did less of it on juniors. There were also standard option "packages" just like there are today - usually called something like a "Deluxe Equipment" and might be a combination of trunk rack, side mounts and Cormorant. A junior package might be a lighter, clock, and Goddess of Speed. I can dig into my literature and scan some of these for you. Radios, lights, lap robes/pillos and trunks were often separate and not in packages. Colors usually had companion stripe colors and coordinated leather or wool combinations in set schemes that were standard in any given year, but you can also see interesting things like they will say that you can have red leather with any color scheme at extra cost. The set catalog/factory offerings were usually pretty conservative, and most dealers wouldn't order something wild on speculation - the Packard customer was often more conservative.
The practice of honoring special orders started very early at Packard. I know that in the teens I have seen reference to non standard colors as options. The standard colors in the early years (before 1917) were usually dark blue with dustproof gray wheels or black (not saying it was limited to that, but the standard colors were very few - something like dark green with black fenders was done but not standard. There is the famous story of an Indian Maharaja ordering a white Packard with rose wool dyed to match the Maharini's favorite slippers, and special cars built for foreign potentates which would have raised eyebrows on the streets of Detroit.
We have to remember that this was a luxury car company that was in business to make money and had to deal with wealthy people and their odd tastes to sell the expensive cars - at least part of the time.
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There are very few records from the prewar days of Packard, and you would be very lucky to find something like a dealer letter or original document which would document a particular car. There is no paint code number plate on a prewar Packard. There are a few cars around which have the original paint or a portion of it and those are valuable resources to show us what the colors really looked like on a full scale car. There are paint chips of various sizes from the period that are available - and you can find variance even in those. It is generally accepted that if you paint a car in one of the colors available for that year, no one will object. Sometimes if a car was not stripped to bare metal when it was repainted, you can sand it down and find the original color, or find places that were missed when a car was painted in the 50s or 60s etc, such as under a dash or behind a number plate or firewall insulator or in the trunk.
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Interesting. I guess I never thought about paint color too much, other than the layman's standpoint of "oh that looks nice". haha
A separate question: Was pin-striping commonly used back in the day? Or is that just something people that people have done in recent decades to make their car more pleasing to their personal tastes?
Packard would in general paint a car, especially a Twelve, any color the customer wanted, including the chassis. However, you should remember that this was limited to the colors available in automotive paints at the time. The thousands and thousands of hues that we have now are not indicative of that. One thing that is really hard to get right is an authentic color when restoring a car now. You can pick a color from a sample book and paint a 2 foot square panel and find that it looks very different, and also that it doesn't have the depth or clarity that you look for in the "old colors". A car with a good color can be worth more and one with a bad color a lot less.
Pinstriping was definitely used when these cars were new - sometimes a lot of striping. I have photos of both men and women striping cars on the Packard production line, some with brushes and some with wheels. Some of the striping was subtle and some very bold. This was in fact a carryover from the days of carraige building when the horse drawn carraiges were elaborately decorated with stripes.
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both the conventional and Clipper bodies in 1941-2 promoted two-tones, As Dave said, and therefore had clear "breaks" between the colors on mind (like the belt molding).I don't understand why the bathtubs generally used darker top colors.
Dave (or other) - hijacking question: are the "valleys in the 41-2 hood side trim/hood latch/emblem bezel piece body color or always black?
I have some originals with body color on them and also have seen original cars with body color. I think that black would look odd on light color car cars.
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I wasn't trying to imply it wasn't done, just stating my opinion that it shouldn't have been done.
The Clipper models are a totally different matter, as are the 1940-42 traditional style cars, as long as it's not the fenders being two-toned.
In general I absolutely agree, especially on the 35 - 37 cars. I have been around the 39 convertible sedan quite a bit and I am used to it now and don't mind it, and since it is original I accept it more. Extreme two tones on the 38/39 cars don't look good. I just didn't want our new friend to misunderstand that it wasn't done originally. Even Packard put together some odd combinations...
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In general I agree on two toning post 34 Packards, but it is a matter of taste, not that Packard didn't do it. I have a 39 12 convertible sedan in my shop now that was two toned from new and I know that the John Deere family in Moline, IL had a 38 12 limo that was dark green with black fenders. I would say that Packard did it more in 38/39 than 35 to 37. They also did a few juniors in two tone that still survive. I am also restoring a 38 12 Derham convertible that was originally two toned. The two tones worked best when they were subtle. Also in 1941 Packard added a number of two tone combinations that are nice looking and rather sporty. These worked well better because there was a beltline molding and the lighter color was used from there up.
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Try lubing the speedometer cable with some graphite.
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Most of the DuPont cars are owned by members of the DuPont family and they would most likely give you the most for it. I can give you an address if you need it.
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This could be a topic for a different thread. When I have nothing to do anymore I'm going to write a book with 3 to 4 pages each of mini-biographies on the people/families who bought a Mercedes Benz from Mitropia Motors between 1936 and 1940. They were all obviously well off and a bit different.
I think that would be fascinating and would transcend the auto interest aspect. The people who bought the Supercharged Benzes, Cad V16s, custom bodies etc usually had some sort of story. Telling the story of the woman who owned my one off Bohman & Schwartz limo was one of the most fun things about owning the car. People who would buy cars that were as exotic as a Supercharged MB liked fine things and didn't mind that other people saw that, plus they had been successful somehow to pay the huge price.
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I was lucky enough to meet Ralph Roberts who founded LeBaron with Dietrich and Hibbard (and he was sort of left holding the bag when they left) and it was very interesting. In 1941 he left Detroit after working on the Thunderbolt and Newport and never worked in the auto industry again. He was in his 90s but had great stories to tell about clients like Irving Berlin and Al Jolson.
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I have a copy of the Dammann book and bought it to have a few of the unusual photos in it. It covers a lot of ground and has lots and lots of B & W photos, but suffers from low paper and reproduction quality, and most of all from the fact that most of the photos are business card size or smaller, with 4 - 6 on most pages and a bit more text than photo. I don't look at it often, and can't comment now on the accuracy of the text.
A Dietrich/LeBaron book would be interesting, and since Dietrich worked at LeBaron for a time, you could tie them together. For that matter adding the work of Tom Hibbard would be appropriate as he worked at LeBaron at the same time.
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What we are really waiting for Dave, is for your book to come out...
I would love to do a couple of books. One on custom bodied Packards and one on auto ads from 1900 - 1945. One of these days I will have the time. I have a pretty good collection of ads since I have been collecting them since I was about 15.
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I agree that there are customs in the Kimes book, but very few one offs, most are catalog customs, and even the Cloaking chapter has a lot of production bodies in it. My point is more that even the book which is the standard doesn't have a chapter devoted to customs. I certainly didn't mean to say that the Kimes book isn't good. The other books you list are good too and form the bulk of a good Packard library. I am impressed at the great info the forum participants have contributed to this thread.
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There are a few Packard books out there, but only one that is dedicated to coachbuilt cars - "The Coachbuilt Packard" by Hugo Pfau. It was first published in 1973 and reprinted in the early 90s. The photos are all black and white in the first edition, with some color added in the second; there are some errors and they were not corrected in the second edition. I don't know if new copies of the 2nd are still available, but I doubt it. If you can't find one, I have an extra first edition.
The Auto Quarterly Packard book edited by Bev Kimes has some photos of custom bodies in it, but doesn't really have a chapter on customs.
The fun thing is that this thread has probably put together more photos of customs in one place than any book, certainly more than anything but the Pfau book.
Dave
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Dave is the expert so I would respect his opinion. My only two cents is this: "non rusty" can be lots of different things to different people. If the car has had significant rust issues repaired poorly then it's worth nothing more than parts to me.
Also, it's a good idea to post good pictures when looking for the opinions of people who can't see the car.
Agree on the rust - without seeing photos or really seeing the car, I am just taking the description at face value.
The thing I should add is that if you don't know the car you are buying, you should hire someone who does to go look at it with you and evaluate it. Paying someone a couple hundred dollars can save you thousands. I have done this for people both using photos and going to look in person and I don't always advise them to buy the car - at any price.
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That sounds reasonable. I like the 110s and have had a 39 for 25 years. They are fun and reliable. It will never be worth a fortune, but will be a nice car to drive and the coupes always have more value. If it has factory overdrive that is certainly a plus.
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Who bodied the first and third cars?
Forgive the greenhorn questions that will undoubtedly arise, but I am eager to learn.
No problem, they are Packard catalog bodies, not customs. Welcome to the discussion.
Ordering Production Cars
in Packard
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Great story. Should make an interesting look. I wonder who did the modifications. Derham was close... I have seen a Lincoln with white running board and it was striking.