Dave Mitchell
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Posts posted by Dave Mitchell
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If someone builds a car from pieces, changes bodies, builds a new body, or otherwise alters or modifies a car and is honest about it, that is one thing, but too often they don't because it would ruin their profit potential. Clubs and officers of clubs as well as individuals should be afraid of lawsuits - a crazed wealthy car collector who enjoys litigation for sport can destroy someone or a club with incredible legal fees defending themselves even if they are right and the car or collector is wrong. I too have been amazed at some of the cars that are "fakes" but presented as real, and with shows that look the other way. Buyers really have to be on guard, and sometimes those cars that look like #1s but sell at #3 prices show that the bidders are more aware than the reporters.
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I took a quick look at the photos of the 38 Packard 12 convertible sedan reported to be a #1 selling for $132K. I didn't see the car in person, but I think I might know the car. Things that I notice in the photos are: Wrong color on the water pump, armored coil cable and coil base; the end of the coil cable is wrong and it is routed incorrectly and all 3 of the clamps for it are missing. The voltage regulator is wrong, the distributor cover is from a 32 - 34, the top radiator hoses are wrong, the hose clamps wrong, the fuel line is wrong, the porceline on the exhaust manifold is shot, the rear bumper guards do not have the black circles painted on them and the front guards have neither the red hex or the black ring on them. The heater is the wrong year. The steering wheel has the wrong pattern on the plastic and the shift knob is wrong. The wipers are parked incorrectly. The rear foot rests may be special ordered, but I have never seen them on a Packard. The knobs are missing on the window cranks. The close up of the trunk rack shows that the paint could have been sanded and buffed a bit more. These are things I can see just from a few photos.Does this sound like a #1 car? Sadly people will look at that result and think it reflects the market for a #1 car.
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A car with history, even just back to the 50s or 60s where at least someone reliable knows that the car is correct, or photos or some paperwork exists is definitely more valuable than one with no provenence. I know collectors who have gone to look at Packard 12s and found them or the documentation suspect and walked away, or offered far less than "market value". You can't rely on the clubs policing this because it honestly isn't their role, and secondly when they try it isn't applied fairly - prominent members may get a pass. One reason for this is that people who swap bodies around - aren't usually trying to get a better driving 443 as in the above example - they are doing it to make a profit or get an open 12 for less than market value. These usually aren't restored to the highest level since profit is the goal, which doesn't make them the most sought after cars either.
It is certainly a good idea to be a careful buyer. If I were to buy an early 30s Chrysler Imperial for instance, I wouldn't even consider it without talking to a friend of mine who knows which ones are real and which aren't. I know from my days on the CCCA classification committee that there are only a handful of those that are real. The real ones bring 2 - 3 times what the rebodied ones do. If I were new to the hobby I wouldn't buy an open Packard Super 8 or 12 without having someone who knows about them look at it. To me an original unrestored or older restoration or documented car is much more valuable and interesting. I like these cars for more than just the looks of them - I like the history - and I think a lot of people are like this, especially the younger collectors of classics. A body swap car usually has no history because the person who swapped it is trying to hide that fact, and these cars are more one dimensional. The story that comes with a car is a connection to the past and to an interesting era. My feeling is that the market usually rewards the more authentic cars.
That's fascinating. I gather from the standpoint of market value that this puts a premium on cars with a known history, in that desirable cars without a known history will be tainted with the possibility of being a body swap car? If so, it's yet another reason to be a careful buyer: If you don't know the risks that a particular model and year was likely have been swapped, you might not realize the possibility that the car you are buying is discounted in the market. -
1937 120 coupe roadster, driver quality restoration. Packard overdrive installed by long time Packard mechanic. Nice driving, good looking fun car that you can drive everyday and still be proud of at shows.
Dave Mitchell packard12s@hotmail.com
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I look at a lot of cars for sale for different people, sometimes in person and sometimes just photos. I am amazed at how poorly restored a lot of cars are, even ones that are "professionally" restored. I can tell if a Packard has been restored by someone who knows what they are doing. When you see things painted the wrong color or chromed when they shouldn't be, you know that they didn't know what to do and didn't take the time to find out. Then you ask what other things did they cut corners on that you can't see, like steering, trans, brakes, rear axle, engine etc. The other thing is that there are collectors who don't want to drive the cars at all - all they have to do is get in and out of the trailer, onto the show field and over the ramp to get the trophy, and they may look absolutely perfect, but have little or nothing done to the mechanics. I know this is true, because I talk to the shops that have to fix them and/or the new owners that are not so happy.
I know a number of the best restorers in the country and I know some of the trends by what is being restored and I can also tell by what parts and advice people are looking for. To me it is obvious that there are more of the 35 - 39 seniors are being restored than in the past.
Dave - amazing story about the triple swap on the 443. There are a lot more body swap cars out there than people would guess. Sadly in years to come people won't know which ones were swapped. Sometimes the majority of open cars of certain types are swaps. I think I have seen more 745 open cars that are swaps than are original, and certainly a lot of 34 roadsters didn't start out as what they are - it is hard to find a 34 coupe. Likewise I have seen a lot more 40 - 42 Super 8 convertibles that used to be 110s or 120 than I have that you can prove always were 160s. I am suspect of any open V12 if you can't provide some history of it.
Great analysis, Dave, but of course I'd expect no less from you! I think you really nailed it with the "shiny paint" comment. At this point in time, there've been a lot of cars that have had drive trains swapped, bodies moved around, and so forth.From a driving standpoint, it's hard to beat the Senior cars from the mid to late 30's. Good power, nice ride, and easy to steer and shift.
Also interesting comment on the 443. I bought a 443 coupe in the early 80's, very handsome car. Mine was excellent mechanically, although a little stiff to drive, wire wheels which were a nice touch, and OK cosmetics. Car was solid as a rock. Circumstance was such that I sold the car in the early 90's, and got a fair penny for it, with no advertising just word of mouth through a well connected antique car friend. Recently, I asked him where the car was now, and the answer was interesting to say the least. The fellow who bought it had a 443 roadster with nice cosmetics but the running gear was poor, so he switched the two bodies. The coupe then got sold to another person, who took the body off his 443 sedan and installed the coupe body, with the sedan body now on the poor running gear. Now, there are three "mismatched" cars out there!
The values on the 12's has sort of snuck up on me, didn't realize they were bringing the dollars you mention, but understand it.
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The no sale made to look like a sale happened to me. I was amazed. This was years ago. Before my car even came up, auction company reps were trying to get me to lift the reserve - very high pressure - and when my car was on the block, not selling, they said that I had lifted the reserve (I hadn't), ran imaginary bids up and hammered it sold. They brought me a piece of paper to sign (in full view of the crowd) which I refused to sign. The auction rep begged me to pretend to sign, saying that they had a deal going to sell it after the auction. There was no such deal, but several magazines reported the car as sold at the hammer price. Anyone who knew me, knew that I owned the car for a long time after, so it just made the auction company look bad, when I guess they were trying to pump up their sales report.
Years later when I sold a car through Gooding & Co, I was pleased with how professional they were and there was no pressure at all on me to lift my reserve and none of the foolishness I had experienced with other companies.
There are some cars at auction that are really nice cars and even number 1 condition cars, but there are others that aren't, and buyers discount those cars. The other factor is that sometimes a car is consigned to the wrong auction - selling a classic or brass car at an auction primarly for sports cars isn't a great idea, but some sellers just want to sell and move on, or they are selling several sports cars and the auction house takes all of the cars to get the ones they want.
I agree too that wildly high single sales may not mean more than two guys with a lot of money wanted the same car on that day. If just one hadn't been there, it could have brought half.
I agree with all the comments above. Always be careful to take a single auction "transaction" both high or low too seriously. There can be lots of factors in play, including a no-sale that may look like a sale. -
I doubt that it was really a number 1 car, or if so, that it really sold, or there wasn't some factor that would explain why it sold so cheap without a reserve. I would not agree with his conclusion based on that one car. I actually have noticed that the 35 - 39 Twelves have been going up. A 36 coupe roadster that was definitely between a 2 and 3 recently sold for $340K. It will be interesting to see if that car also is reported as condition 1. The difference between a 1 and a 3 can be very expensive to make up. A year ago, a 36 12 coupe roadster that was a very nice, but not perfect (over 10+ year old restoration that had been driven) brought $420K. If a reporter doesn't know Packard 12s well, not to say that Terry Shea doesn't, it can be hard to tell if the car is correct, or even if the body has always been on a 12 chassis, but often the bidders know, or discount the cars if they aren't sure. I looked at a 38 12 coupe roadster a couple of years ago that sold for around $175K and was reported to be a #1 car. I looked at it closely and thought that with a complete engine and driveline rebuild it could be a good driver or a #3, to be a showcar or a real #1, it would need a total restoration. There are a couple of not so good 38 12 convertible sedans that have bounced around the market for the last 15 years and they have shown up regularly in auction reports, but I know that good ones that have sold privately have brought much more. I also know of 2 38 convertible sedans that sold in the past few years and were restored or are in the process of expensive major restorations, which would seem to indicate that their owners think they are worth it. If you look at some other earlier cars, I think you will still find that a really good 32 - 34 roadster (or other open car) will still hit $450 - 600 and a very nice one last year sold for $770. There have also been some 35/36 phaetons that have gone over the $600K mark, as well as custom cars. Also there was the barn find 33 conv victoria that sold for over $370K that needed a total restoration.
I will agree that prices in auction reports have come down in the last couple of years and part of that is certainly due to the fact that John O'Quinn passed away, and also that his estate is regularly selling cars for less than he paid for them. I don't believe that this is reflective of the real total market though. A lot of times the cars that are for sale for a long time or come up repeatedly at auction have serious problems - structural wood, mechanical, parts missing, or questionable history - or all the above; those cars are reported and drag the market down when they should be considered for what they are and graded accordingly, not by how shiny the paint is.
I think that a couple of things are also happening here - collectors are running through the cars that haven't already been restored and are looking for new projects, and also collectors are looking for cars that are easier and more reliable to drive - ie the 35 - 39 seniors. I have watched the popularity of Packards and 30+ years ago, it wasn't the 34 12 that was the most desireable car - it was the 28 443. Now you seldom even see a photo of a 443 at a show - then 29s and 30s and then the 32 - 34s, now it seems that the 35 - 39s are gaining ground.
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Class judging at Pebble Beach is based on points, including authenticity, but there is also an "elegance factor" of about 10% that the judges can use to determine the winners if the judges feel the cars are otherwise equal. In years past, there were often more than 3 cars which would garner perfect scores and the judges had to choose between them somehow. Some years extra consideration is given to cars that completed the tour in the event of a tie. Of course the overall look of a car is important there, but I clearly recall that the chief judge also made it clear that if the car is otherwise fantastic, you can't let your personal like or dislike of some aspect or accessory get in the way. I have also seen the head judge demand that a team come to agreement and give him the three award winners because they have spent hours debating which car is the best.
I still think that the totally subjective "walk by" judging isn't consistent and often has little to do with authenticity or quality of restoration. Concours tend to have celebrity and sponsor judges who may know a great deal about the class they judge and they may not. I have been amazed that judges - and very well known ones - will say "I don't know why I'm judging that class, I don't know anything about those cars." Sometimes it seems like the judges are selected randomly or purposely not judging the cars they are experts in. That, coupled with concours "taking care" of big collectors who repeatedly show or donate erodes the credibility of the judging. I think that in the past this lead to the glorification of ultra wide whites and lots of chrome and extra lights etc. I believe it was the very concours judging that encouraged over-restoration and over accessorizing cars. I feel that the beauty pagent concours judging makes the AACA, CCCA and marque club judging more important, the judges may not be "professional", but are often very dedicated to the task and they are more consistent; the standards are written and understood to promote the cars being restored authentically. In strict club points judging a well restored, correct car, which would have no chance at a concours - such as a plain sedan with blackwall tires and no accessories - is still recognized and honored. The concours judging you describe is true to a point, since things are starting to change, but we both know that cars have been "upgraded" from original with the goal of winning major concours and those cars have been rewarded fairly often.
Quote:For those that aren't aware, it should be pointed out that the Pebble Beach Concours is completely different, as they point judge at that show... at least to determine class winners.
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I will look. I have several radios. packard12s@hotmail.com
Hi Dave,Do you have a 1936 120 radio head?
Thanks Steve
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Can you send me photos of the lock and handle? I have some locks and handles that I'm not sure what they are for. packard12s@hotmail.com
Do you have in your stock the golf door lock for a '31?How about Door handles for a '31?
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I might have a set - I will look. email me at packard12s@hotmail.com
We need 8 rods fora 356. -
I understand your opinion on the Trippes, I just want our new to the hobby friend to understand that it is a matter of taste rather than authenticity. The lights are authentic and period correct, whether they look good to you is another question. I have absolute proof in the form of the paperwork from 1938 that the Trippe lights were installed on the convertible victoria before it was delivered to the customer by Derham and clearly they are in the photos of it taken before delivery.
I feel that my opinion is just as valid that having the top up on a boat tail speedster on a sunny day is worse than having Trippe lights on your car. I feel that the top was an ugly necessity that the designer never intended to be up if it didn't have to be, it spoils the purity and clean lines of the design. Just because we don't like something doesn't mean that it is non authentic. I think a judge should look past the accessories at the quality of the car and at a concours also at the style. If they want to deduct for the accessories they should ask if they were on the car when new. If the original owner put them on, then I don't think that a judge should rewrite history to suit his taste. I think we got to the point of having too much bling - white walls even wider than the ones that were made in the era, extra chrome in the form of lights and trim, trunk racks - let alone trunks - on cars that never had them, chrome wire wheels instead of painted discs, and cars with paint that makes them look like they were dipped in thick clear plastic, (and fabulous original cars that should have been preserved being restored) in large part because owners wanted to get judges attention and win trophies. The sad thing is that it worked.
DaveI like the Pilot Ray lights. They would be my second right after nothing at all.
Also, I did not say that cars wouldn't win at concours shows if they had Trippe Lights. I said they MAY not win, based on the opinion of the judge who was looking at the car and how stiff the competition was. In many cases, it may be that every car in contention for winning best in class has a set of Trippe Lights. In that case, the Trippes wouldn't prevent them from winning, but they certainly wouldn't help, either.
In my opinion, Trippes have a very heavy appearance, and look like something that should be mounted on a truck.
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Just to play devil's advocate for our friend who is new to the hobby...
While the Pilot Rays are very cool and stylish, and perhaps just a little cleaner looking in the mount, the ones I have had, other than the 32 Cad type, are almost the same size as a the senior Trippe lights, and the lenses will actually interchange. There are a lot of Duesenbergs and Cadillacs that have had Pilot Rays added and still win at concours. Granted that the lights have fallen out of fashion in the last few years, but a lot of past Meadowbrook and Pebble winners have had plenty of extra lights. I would agree that the junior Trippes are good looking lights, but probably inappropriate for a pre 1940 senior Packard in the sense that a person buying a 37 senior wouldn't have put the junior lights on his car nor would the dealer have pushed them. Trippe also made a light to replace the 40 and newer sealed beam units which gave better light. Back in the 30s and 40s it was more about better light than bling. In Europe, there were a lot of suppliers of replacement kits for the American headlight lenses, reflectors and bulbs as a unit, because the lights were thought to be so poor. I have Packards that I actually drive at night and I have put halogen bulbs in the headlights as well as driving lights for purely practical reasons. I'd also have to say that I have tried smaller lights on pre 1940 big Packards and because of the scale of the car, they don't look right to me.
Some of these accesories were practical - lights to see better and a trunk on a roadster which has no storage space, and they were made to look as good as they could, but they still aren't part of the original design and may not enhance it, but I think taking off for them in judging is very subjective. If you feel that is ok, then I think it is ok if I won't give a boat tail speedster, roadster, disappearing top Model J Murphy roadster, sport pheaton, Darrin convertible victoria or Mercedes special roadster a first if it is shown with the top up.
The 1930 Packard accessory brochure shows several different types of accessory lights, including the optional "Bright Bumper" (a 3-inch tubular bumper with lights on the ends), single Pilot Ray light WITH steering linkage, Lorraine "Driving Light" (like a spot light and mounted on windshield post), twin "Saf_De-Lites" (driving lights the likes of which I've never seen on a car), "Open Car Spotlight" (which operated differently than the Lorraine light), cigar lighter and utility light, fender lights, and a magnetic kit lamp (with 12 feet of cable).In regards to Trippe lights: while I think the leveling bubble on the Senior Trippe Lights is an interesting and novel idea, I MUCH prefer the looks of the smaller Junior Trippe Lights because they do not overpower the looks of the front end of the car (AS MUCH). My first choice would be no extra lights on the front of the car at all. My second choice would be the twin Pilot Ray lights, again, because they aren't nearly as big as the Senior Trippe Lights.
In concours judging, I have it on good authority that a twin pair of Trippe Lights installed MAY hinder you getting a first in class, for the same reason that having a trunk on your trunk rack MAY prevent you from getting a first.
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Winning a class at Pebble Beach is not determined by points only - there are often multiple 100 point cars in a class.To separate those the class judges are given a 10% "elegance factor". That said, I strongly feel that this system is still superior to the "walk by" judging.
Interesting perspective on the "debate."I don't think it's so much a debate on Voison as it is about aesthetics of the car that won Pebble Beach. Some like the design, most don't. No one suggested that Gabriel Voison's engineering was not worthy.
The restoration on Mullin's car is so spectacular, you can't help but appreciate it. In my opinion, though, aesthetics takes a back seat to condition at Pebble, which is mandated in that the only cars elegible to win Best of Show have to first win Best of Class, which is determined by points only. Kind of gives a new definition to concours d'elegance, in my opinion... concours écouter.
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Hi Alex,
You aren't that far away from me, come and see me sometime and we will get some cars out.
Dave Mitchell Geneseo, IL packard12s@hotmail.com
Thank you for the information, everyone, along with the added pictures! -
Pilot Rays on a 29 Packard.
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1939 Packard 12 convertible sedan - with owners Mr. and Mrs. Truman Newberry, investor and board member of Packard Motorcar Co. He opted for a spot light, Lalique mascot, double whites and a zip out panel on the side of the top, and Trippe lights. He was not a down market buyer, and I will venture to say that all of these were installed at the Packard plant before delivery.
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1938 Packard 12 - Trippe lights installed before delivered to the customer.
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There is at least one copy of this also
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While not installed at the factory, Trippe lights were sold at Packard dealers, and were found on Packards when they were new. There are a number of different models and sizes of them, appropriate for different years and sizes of cars. They were also used on commercial vehicles, but usually painted rather than chrome. Let's face it, most of the headlights on American cars of the 30s aren't great. There was a reason people put driving and fog lights on cars, much like they do today.
There appears to be no evidence that the large bumper bracket mounted Trippe lights were ever original equipment on any Classic car from the 1920's-1930's.-
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Hi Tom,
I will look for the horn button. I'll give you a call.[
Thanks,
Dave
OTE=34PackardRoadsta;1147413]Hi Dave,
Any chance you have a good horn button/center cover for a 38 120 banjo steering wheel?
Thanks,
Tom
p.s. I lost your phone #. Please give me a call when you can.
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I have patterns to cast new ones of those trim pieces. I will be making some more soon. Email me directly at packard12s@hotmail.com
hello,i have a 1937 12 sedan,i am looking for the all the trim,top and bottom of the hood louvers if you have them.thanks -
Hi, I found the bracket for the compressor and the two belt pulley. I will send you photos.
Hey Dave, still waiting to hear back from you on 41 AC parts? ja -
You might try just turning it over with the starter. You can buy a push button switch with leads to the solenoid.
Will someone please post a photo of an original hand crank for a 10th Series Super Eight, to show me what one looks like? (Probably same for many other years.) I am looking for one, as I need to set my valves.
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Thanks for the kind words Ed, ad yourself into the mix too, you have a lot of experience, not just buying and owning, but working on and actually driving too. We both know how much fun it is to fix up the mess left by less than qualified restorers/owners.