NTX5467
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Posts posted by NTX5467
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Spark plug gap can be whatever you want, past .035" gap, up to about .060" gap, with an HEI. Many small block Chevy V-8s were spec'd at .045". which coincides with the point where the advantages of the wider gap start to diminish. Normal points would tolerate .040", from my experiences (for normal driving).
NTX5467
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Wondering if the trim items were deleted as they might have been damaged during removal for paint?
I read through the comments on the GS on the BaT link. I concur that I'd rather have an original car, with some patina, than a fully-restored car of unknown history. Less expensive, usually, too.
NTX5467
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A possible "complicating factor" can be . . . that when each system was first introduced, each of the electronic ignition conversion kit companies were still owned by themselves. Mallory was still Mallory, just as Pertronix was still Pertronix, etc. In the times since then, those companies have become a part of larger parts groups. Of course, they claim that they are still selling the same products, or better ones, but who knows where things are really built? For some people, that can be a really BIG deal!
I remember, from back in the earlier 1960s, everything was manufactured and assembled in the USA. Even then, there were brands which were "premium" as there were also other brands which were good, but a little bit less expensive, and then there was the "3rd-line" brands that were good to a point. Plus the OEM-affiliated/owned aftermarket brands.
At THIS point in time, any of those three levels of car parts can be built "anywhere". "Asia" can be the low-cost producer of parts, BUT they obviously can build OEM-level parts, too. Just depends on what the BUYER of the products specifies, so they can hit a price point, give the customer a reasonable product for the price. Some buyers buy "cheap" as others do not. Parts have always been built in Mexico, too. In the 1980s, I had a friend who worked for a chain import car parts store. He noted that in VW parts, you could buy OEM and pay for it. You could buy "Asian" and pay less but get less. Or you could buy "Mexico" and get better quality at a good price, less than OEM. In many cases, that is still true today.
FWIW,
NTX5467
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In the 1990s, I started hearing about ignition points needing replacement every 8K miles or so. I found that strange as we used to easily get 15K miles out of them. I wondered what had changed? I still had a points car or two back then, so I went to the main auto supplies to look for new points. THEN I realized what was going on. None of the new, name brand point sets had the little vial of "breaker cam grease" in them any more. Used to be that every set of new points had that little red vial in it, to put on the breaker cam contact on the points to slow the wear on the points rubbing block.
Another evening after work, I went on a hunt for such grease. At the first big-box parts store, the counter guy got interrupted from making time with his girl. He had no knowledge of what I was looking for. Finally said they didn't have any and went back to this girl friend. Went to another regional parts place. The 40-something man knew what I was talking about and I had remembered seeing it on an end cap display, but we could not find it. Went to another local parts store and the young guy walked me over to their chassis lube section. I smiled and said, "Wrong kind of grease." He went back to check and came back saying they didn't have any. A few days later, went to Super Shops and bought a large tube of Mallory Point Grease they had hanging on the wall. Super lifetime supply. I ended up giving it to a friend who needed it as I had converted that car to the OEM electronic ignition system.
First time I heard of Pertronix, was about 30 years ago in these forums. Back when all they had was what later became their base system. Everybody who had it raved about how much better it was. Later, the "II" system was introduced. It had some initial issues, so everybody said to stay with the "I" system. Then came the "III" system and more things it had. Cycle repeat. Some had differing ways to install the system and which coil to use, as I recall. Then, a few years later, I saw people recommending the "III" system as they had one and it worked well.
At this time, Pertronix has conversion kids for many older vehicles. I suspect that ALL of the aftermarket, drop-in kits on the market today are re-packaged Pertronix kits. Just my suspicion.
Some posters in the Riviera Forum have used the OEM Ford TFI modules (added-on) with points as the trigger.
Davis Unified Ignition (a.k.a. "DUI") has HEI distributors which he has adapted to various engines. Using, of course, a better-than-GM module to run them. In some earlier non-GM distributors, he had the module mounted outside of the smaller-cap distributor cap. I'm not sure what his Buick offerings might be, or if the guts can be installed into an older Delco distributor.
In another forum, recent mention of "Progression Ignition" was mentioned. They have a quite nice website. Fully-electronic "guts" and fully-computer programmable as to "mechanical advance" and "vacuum advance". Input the advance values and related rpm levels (mech and vac), plus the desired hot base idle speed, and it spits out an advance map it will run off of. Don't like it? Program another one! Pretty slick with a small-cap distributor. Pricey?? YES. BUT . . . stable sparks past 8500rpm. Capability to deactivate (for theft prevention purposes) with the controller or your app-enabled phone. It will vary the base timing as a means of idle speed control. A neat distributor! Looks like the circuit board could drop into an old Delco points distributor, from looking at the videos.
Personally, I like electronic ignition systems. The closer they are to an OEM system, the better, to me. BUT many aftermarket systems can be good, too.
The ONE real drawback to electronic ignition is that it takes a certain level of battery charge to fire the plugs. The OEM GM system is about 5 volts, for example. With points, all that has to happen is for the battery to be strong enough to make a spark between the point contacts and then a spark at the spark plug.
The SIDE ISSUE of using points relates to breaker cam lobe wear. Try to set the points using a dial indicator and that wear suddenly sticks out greatly. Significance? If you choose a random lobe to set the points with, with the points rubbing block on the peak of the lobe, that's the reference point. Then check the other lobes and you'll discover they are not all the same. Which means that others will have a different point gap AND related dwell on that particular cylinder. Dwell angle affects distributor timing of the spark for that cylinder. So one cyl can fire a few degrees sooner or later than the reference cylinder. Which effectively means that some cyl might fire at 5 degrees BTDC, another at 3 degrees BTDC, and another at 7 degrees BTDC. By modern standards, where emissions and fuel economy are more important, a bit sloppy, but works. In an electronic system, every cyl will fire at the same timing setting. At this point in time, I highly suspect that every distributor breaker cam has such wear on it. No new breaker cams, just used ones, from what I understand. BTAIM
I believe that ACDelco still sells tubes of breaker cam grease. Possibly Holley/Mallory too? Do NOT count of buying the ACDelco items at a GM dealer, but it should be available online in single tubes, as the Mallory lube is.
ONE kit which might be considered is what used to be the old Mallory Uni-Light electronic ignition kit. It uses a shutter wheel and a red LED as the switching mechanism. Seems like Holley is now selling something like this?
Many decisions and "value judgments" to make.
Enjoy!
NTX5467
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Ir appears that some are more helpful than others?
NO bolts on exhaust system outlets, just studs, period. Thread pitches are different on the noted Buick items, but other manufacturers did otherwise, even within General Motors. And I could muddy the waters and mention the different styles of "prevailing torque" studs and nuts Chevrolet used in the 1990s, rather than use lock washers.
Fastenal might be a noted supplier, but their "selling quantities" usually are in multiples of 10 (100?) rather than like going into a hardware store to by a single fastener (nut, bolt, or stud). I somewhat suspect that if a local auto supply has access to metric sizes, they might also be able to order SAE sizes from their supplier, OR refer you to somebody who has them in stock? OR you can at least to travel to purchase in person?
Others are working on American cars in Europe. Check out the www.bbtr.de website to see some excellent restorations and such. Getting into a network of American car owners in Europe can be an asset, I suspect! Seems like there is a good-sized Buick group in Germany, too? I suspect that in many cases, others might need similar fastener items in SAE thread specs, which are size-specific rather than car-brand-specific.
I understand the desire to connect with Riviera owners, BUT in some mechanical issues as this, which are more "Buick" than "Riviera-specific", posing questions in the normal Buick Club Forums might be of benefit, too. Have more potential information sources is better than fewer. Possibly even start a tread in there about sourcing fasteners from European sources?
Respectfully,
NTX5467
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The DUI ignition is a good upgrade from the basic HEI system, which Davis has expanded to many other non-GM engines. Even with the HEI module attached outside of the normal OEM distributor cap of many vehicle brands.
To muddy the waters a bit on ignitions, check out all of the information and videos at www. progressionignition.com. A bit pricey, but with many features of a "computer-controlled" distributor, including an anti-theft feature. With using a modern cell phone to control and adjust it. Quite neat stuff, for a price. I found this from a mention in another GM vehicle forum. I don't recall a Nailhead application, though, BUT it looks like the guts that run the system would fit inside of a GM points-style distributor, just from what I can see in their videos.
Enjoy!
NTX5467
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The sending unit fuel intake should be placed at the lowest part of the tank, which is where a lot of the sediment should congregate. As I understand it, the "sock" on the sender fuel inlet is there to keep moisture out of the rest of the fuel system, with a small enough mesh to resist water but not small enough to restrict gasoline. Yet gunk from "phase separation" in the tank (from ethanol'd fuels reacting with moisture in the new fuel and/or condensate in the tank itself) can get through the sock, it seems.
When the engine is turned off, the fuel in the fuel line above that level should "wash" back into the tank, potentially removing any accumulation from the outside of the sock.
Perhaps the tank might need some internal cleaning?
Might try some moisture-removal fuel additive (which usually included some alcohol in it) and then drive the car until it needs fuel, then add fuel to the tank in 5 gallon amounts from gas cans?
Just some thoujghts,
NTX5467
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Great progress!
Thanks for the update,
NTX5467
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Unfortunately, a "mild cam" can have many different meanings, ESPECIALLY for a 5-Liter motor! You can start by searching for the cam duration and lift specs for the 215 4bbl V-8 for a base point. Then look for the cam specs for the 1980s-era 5.0L Chevy V-8s. THEN look for a cam manufacturer which promises "a-symetrical" lobe configurations, where the open fast and close slow. The first cams of that sort were the original CompCams "High Energy" series, which in one I checked, kept the valve a max lift for a full 10 degrees of crank rotation. In particular, the one I checked, was the old 268HE cam, in its original years.
In my '77 305 Camaro, which I bought new, the stock cam in it was the old Chevy 350/300 cam, but unique to the 305 was a shorter intake lift and duration. What I upgraded to was a 210 @ .050 cam with .440" lift and 110 LCA. With a Holley 4bbl "Zora assisted" 28-Z intake. With a 600cfm Holley 4160, initially. I had to play with the springs in the advance curve to get more lower-rpm response, which was probably due to the 110LCA vs the OEM orientations of 112-114 degree LCA. With the trans in gear and the brakes on and a/c operating, it would sit at 10.5" Hg manifold vac. Of course, that will not be an issue with your manual transmission. Idle was smooth as stock.
To me, that is about as "wild" a cam as one could use for daily use in a 305 Chevy engine, without going to a looser torque converter and such. AND a 2.56 rear axle ratio. Being that the engine was stock, it still had the 8.5 compression ratio.
Because you are dealing with a Buick motor . . . DO make sure you get the correct lifters and such for your particular model year of motor! Also buy the lifters from the same company that made the camshaft. This keeps any possible manufacturer's warranty in effect. THEN, for a good break-in, buy the moly paste and also some of the liquid assy lube to use liberally on all of the lobes and such. I also put some of that stuff on the back of the new Cloyes Plus roller chain cam sprocket I used, too. No pressure lube uip there, just splash, so give those areas a head start in the lube area.
Hope this might help. These were my experiences.
NTX5467
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When the Roioc abrasive items came out, our techs "siezed upon them" to replace the Scotchbrite discs they had been using. STILL had to carefully protect the surfaces from "abrasive debris", though. Later, GM came out with a TSB saying not to use those things, due to the debris issue. BTAIM They obviously look good and work well, just be sure to protect everything from their flying abrasive debris to prevent damage to bearing surfaces and other internal engine parts.
Later, we started buying a few "washing machines" which were tall enough to accommodate a block and two cyl heads (with some small parts in a wire box) too. Quite an in-house advance as most of the local machine shops (which had cleaning vats) had closed. Not sure what they cost, but they worked well.
NTX5467
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Might the normal platinum plugs ("P") be the "single platinum" version and the other ("P+") be the "double platinum" variation?
Single platinum means the ground electrode has the thin plate of platinum fused/welded to it. Double platinum has the plates fused to both the center electrode and the ground electrode. Yes, care must be used with gapping them. If you don't like the .050" gap, decrease it to .040" or .045" gap.
Just some suspicions and thoughts,
NTX5467
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NOT just male frontal lobes, but ALL humans. That's what "the science" states. It was also mentioned as a probable reason that rental car companies don't like to rent to pre-25 year olds. Usually, it's mentioned as the age range of 23-25 yrs old, from what I've seen.
NTX5467
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"Delphi" was what happened when GM spun-off their OEM radio (Delco), steering gear (Saginaw), and a few other sections which they used for OEM GM items, but they were also doing work for other OEMs by contract. It might now be as close to an ACDelco part as it can be, but now being a private entity, no real way to know. FWIW
Just some thoughts,
NTX5467
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The quality and "weight"/threads per inch of the fabric can be an issue, too.
I have a '80 Chrysler Newport which was sold to an oil tool company in West Texas from new. It has the velour loose-pillow split bench front seat. The velour is worn away on the driver's cushion and the main contact area of the lean-back, but the base material is still in good shape. Looks very worn, but intact. I figured I would do those seats as the last thing I did, all things considered, to that car. Mainly due to complexity and cost.
NTX5467
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Just curious which oil viscosity is being used? How many miles on the engine? Does the engine make any bearing-related noises when starting from sitting overnight or after sitting from not running when hot?
In the short run, as long as the oil pressure is to spec at 1000rpm or whatever, lower pressure at hot idle should not be an issue.
On one hand, the old "rule" for oil pressure for HP work, using the higher rpms to determine pressure at those rpms, it was "10psi/1000rpm". Using that to work backwards, a 700rpm idle would be 7psi. Don't know if it works like that, though. In a 1950 Plymouth service manual, it mentions that ANY oil pressure at idle is fine, even if its 1psi I guess? Different ways to look at it!
For reference, my 2005 LeSabre Series II 3800 shows about 37psi at hot base idle.
You can remove the engine and check the crankshaft bearings at some time in the future, if desired. If the engine has never been into, might be something to work toward? But as long as the engine is "quiet", might not be an issue.
NTX5467
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Over the years, I have heard about HEIs having the propensity for the mechanical advance mechanism to stick. In my case, on my '77 Camaro 305 I bought new, the mechanical advance has never stuck. A quick twist of the rotor tests that. It's not got over 700K on that same distributor with no issues.
When I did the cam and carb upgrade at 92K miles, I pulled the HEI apart to check and clean it. Some "soft varnish" prevented an easy removal of the distributor shaft, but a quick dose of carb cleaner fixed that. No bushing wear. Everything worked freely, so ai cleaned and lubed it before it went back in.
After about 22 years, I had the cap off looking at things. I touched the center of the HEI module and it moved. It was the original. It was basically sitting there until I touched it When I got ready to go to work, the car would not start. IF I'd hit a bump enough to jar the module, the car would have died immediately. A new module fixed it.
In earlier times, FEW people knew about the carbon button and that it was the wear interface between the coil and rotor. Some cars came in, running flaky, and the button was gone from wear. It was available separately from GM Parts, but came with all new coils. The coil ground is often overlooked.
Enjoy!
NTX5467
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"Survivor" class?
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Initial timing should NOT affect misfires happening. Although it there it too much initial timing, it can cause pinging on acceleration.
Where did you get the module from? Just curious. Seems to be many issues, of late, with ignition components from Asia failing right out of the new box or causing other ignition issues. From condensers to control modules, etc.
NTX5467
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Thanks for that link to the Samba forum! Interesting!
NTX5467
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The then-emerging issue with the large-cap distributors was ozone production within the cap from the hi-voltage sparks jumping around in there, which could cause mis-fires and such. Their cure was to drill two or so small holes for air circulation into the cap. That was back when massive zaps seemed to be desired to light-off the air/fuel mixture. Plus .060"+ plug gaps.
Davis built his company on using HEI modules, either in HEI distributors adapted to other motors or with an external-mount HEI module.
Why not use an HEI 6-pin module and the "Electronic Spark Control" detonation-limiter/timing retard module to better-adapt the older 10.0CR motors to modern regular-grade fuels? Just need the wiring for the detonation limiter sensor to the module to the distributor. The knock sensor would screw into a block coolant drain plug hole (as Chevy first did).
Was the attraction of the Ford TFI module that it had the bracket and wiring harness? Just curious. I suppose you have a plan for when "tissue rejection" might happen?
Back in 1962, most of the Capacitive Discharge electronic ignition system items still used the points for their trigger, but with a very small electrical current through them. That allowed for longer point life, but did not address the point of breaker cam wear. Back in those days, the points were set on a "pick one, they're all the same" method. Yet, when I tried to use a dial indicator to set points in a Chrysler 440 dual-point distributor, as I was having trouble getting the dual points set correctly (gap) and getting the total dwell within specs, I discovered the peaks of the breaker cam lobes were NOT all the same height, due to wear. When I saw the significant variations of lobe height (which relate to point gap, dwell, and related timing of each cylinder's spark, I procurred a Chrysler Direct Connection electronic ignition kit (when they were still made and sold by Chrysler, unlike the current "licensed" versions) and did not look back. Using a MSD-5C control box that I bought new when they were available from the original MSD company. The advantage of the 5C box is that it plugged into the factory Chrysler wiring harness.
Thanks for the tech information!
NTX5467
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From the other forum, apparently O'R auto parts has condensers made in Mexico, which are better than the ones from Asia. I have also PM'd a guy in PA who deals in distributors and related items to see if I can get an email address for his business.
All for now,
NTX5467
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Problem is that the newer ones tend to delaminate internally rather quickly. A few users on the Buick forums but also in the Chrysler forums. The fix were new GM NOS condensers. There are still some out there, apparently.
Not discounting the shelf life issue at all. I just know what has been mentioned in the past few months. Of course, the "fix" would be an electronic ignition conversion kit, as Pertronix or similar, or even an HEI Until you put a dial indicator on the breaker cam and measure the height of each lobe do you THEN realize how different they can be from wear. Few newer point sets include that little vial of lube in them, so put in dry, the points' rubbing block wears, dwell changes, car doesn't run well, Cycle repeat. OR you go online and search for a tube of "ignition point grease" like Mallory used to sell (when Mallory was Mallory, before its first sale to Super Shops and then to Holley) or even GM/Delco parts. But that lube will only make the point rubbing block last longer, but not compensate for the cyl-to-cyl dwell and ign timing differences from the different height lobes.
When the distributors were new, it was common to "choose one, any lobe" and set the point gap on that lobe. After 75K miles or so, the lobes wear and not evenly. Which means point gap will not be "as set", except on that one lobe. With the varying dwell, "dwell" also affects ignition timing, which can then mean that some cyls will fire earlier than "set" as others can fire later than "set". Might be a range of about 5 crank degrees from quickest to latest?
I have NOTHING against ignition points. In some ways, they are superior to electronic systems, but not in the long-term consistency of firing plugs exactly the same on each cylinder on every engine revolution. With the points tension spring putting a side force on the upper distributor shaft, the upper bushing also wears with a points system. With no such side pressure in an electronic ignition distributor, upper bushing wear does not happen to anything close to the same level, by observation. Even after multiple 100Ks of miles.
NTX5467
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Not just "sitting", but ALL movement getting into place and exiting the seat.
NTX5467
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Intake manifold gasket question
in Buick Riviera
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Blocking the exhaust heat crossover via the intake manifold gaskets can work well in warmer climates, as to cold starts, but in even a temperate climate much less a "northern" climate (north of Oklahoma), it can make things work better on those cold starts in the colder times of the year. Especially with a divorced choke! Newer electric choke carburetor, less problem. Location, location, location . . .
NTX5467