kfle
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Posts posted by kfle
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1 minute ago, John_S_in_Penna said:
Our economy is fine for graduates with needed
degrees. My cousin just graduated and got a job
with a $68,000 starting salary. His girlfriend has a
similar starting salary. I hope he'll be thrifty so he'll
have resources years down the road.
But the survey says that 22% of "Generation Z" people
already own a classic car. That's absurd! Even here
in antique-car territory, that number is not reached.
Either the surveyor, or the respondents, didn't know
what a classic car was. Figure that the press doesn't
know much about our hobby!
It says 90s and early 2000s. So it pushes beyond the definition of the aaca guidelines but to younger people that is a ‘classic’ to them. A 2003 small Japanese drift car is an enthusiast car and the interest in the car hobby has to start somewhere. its the car culture that needs to start when your younger and typically its the taste and types of cars that change over the years.
I know a 17 year old that bought an 92 Jeep and brings it to the local weekly car cruise. He has a lot of pride in that car.
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I thought the Millennials and Gen Z don't care about driving and the car hobby was going away?
Actual data.
"It's a common assumption that Millennials and members of Generation Z are less interested in cars than previous generations. But according to Hagerty survey results released last week, these younger drivers are more likely—not less—to want to own a classic car than their parents or grandparents.
Of the 10,000 United States drivers surveyed, Gen Z and Millennials were most likely to report currently owning a collectible or classic car. One quarter of Millennials surveyed said they owned a classic car, as did 22% of Gen Zers surveyed. They were followed by Gen X (19%), Baby Boomers (13%), and the so-called Silent Generation (11%).
In addition, members of the Gen Z and Millennial generations who don't already own a classic car expressed more interest in owning one than older generations. Of the Millennials surveyed, 57% expressed interest in owning a classic car, and so did 53% of the Gen Zers surveyed. About half of Gen Xers (49%) also showed interest in classic cars, while numbers for Boomers (33%) and the Silent Generation (19%) were much lower.
"Much of the 'death of driving' handwringing by the media in the wake of the Great Recession was based on data showing younger generations were getting their licenses later, buying their first vehicles later, and buying fewer vehicles compared to previous generations at the same age. That conflated buying power with demand," Ryan Tandler, the survey lead, said in a statement. "The recession hit younger generations harder and delayed a host of major purchases and life milestones."
Millennials are now catching up and, as the nation's largest generation, they could become the collector-car hobby's biggest group in the near future, Hagerty predicts. That is, if the economic fallout from the global coronavirus pandemic doesn't put them right back where they were a decade ago."
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Yesterday, I had a group of 8 Steamers on their tour stop by the workshop for a coffee stop and tour of the Cole Motor Car collection. It was a great time and a real joy for my son and I to see all of those steamers in action! A great group of people as well.
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On 9/16/2020 at 6:03 PM, edinmass said:
Interesting car.......I would think it would hit 65-75 easy, though the estimate is much lower. Not often I predict the auction number is low............nice honest car.
Well it sold for $43,000. Just over the high end of the estimate.
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25 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:
Sidenote: This is not a RR - it is a Roamer or something like that.
Here is the Roamer ad for the Victoria model. I thought that Roamer used Rubay bodies according to their ads.
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Taft in a 1912 Cole 30-40. For those that know the stories about Taft's weight, notice the front and rear tire 🙂
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A little earlier than most cars on here as I am more into pre mid twenties myself, though this is a CCCA car. Here is my 1925 Cole Brouette with a body by Willoughby. It is unrestored so these are the original colors as picked by Mrs. Cole herself.
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44 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:
I started this threat to start the first step.
I actually don't necessarily agree the doom and gloom of my own headline "The ultimate demise of the Antique Automobile" but I do believe that times are changing. We need to prepare for that change.
Fast forward twenty years. Gas stations will be scarce. The vast majority of cars on the roads will be electric. Don't take my word for it, looks at the manufacturers own business plans and industry forecasts. The next generation or two of "car guys" (and gals) will be in a completely different landscape. We can stick our heads in the sand and ignore it, or we as an organization and hobby can prepare.It's worth a conversation.
“The first step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one.”
Electric cars will become more prevalent and I am well aware of that as I work in the high tech industry. Cars are one thing, but there are lots of other machines that work on gas such boats, lawn equipment, generators, etc. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the number of the engines in the categories that I just mentioned outnumber the cars in the world. Yes you can get electric lawn mowers, but what about a generator? Also, with Boats, where is the groundswell of electric boats? For example in West Michigan gas stations all over have Rec Fuel or 100% pure gas with no ethanol. It is going to be a long time before there is no gas at all and we will see if that day truly comes. It absolutely may become more expensive for gas as it could be a specialty item and we will have to adapt, but it is not the sky is falling scenario.
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1 hour ago, Peter Gariepy said:
1. Your comment doesn't scale. Just because a few small cars tours have young people attend doesn't mean it reflects the entire hobby.
2. Car enthusiast first gravitate to the cars they own and can drive, some as daily drivers. Then they venture out to other cars. (IMHO)
3. The falling number of members in the HCCA (and other car clubs), and the lack of horseless carriages at the car shows I attend contradicts your statement.
4. It's not an issue of "like". It's an issue of wanting to own, restore, maintain and drive. I'd speculate that you talk to any car guy under 50 and ask them if they want to own a T (or virtually any pre-war car) and the answer is no. A perception of drivability, lack of parts, knowledge to maintain, access to knowledgeable mechanics, initial cost, etc. make it prohibitive as well.
5. Agreed. Gasoline will be around. But demand will be low, and so will the corresponding supply.
I wasn't going to get jump into this thread of the rehashed age old debate, but since you asked with your number 4 point I will give you an answer.
I am in my 40's, hence under the age of 50 and I got rid of all of my newer cars to exclusively buy pre 1932 cars. I didn't grow up in a car family, had no exposure to old cars, etc. When I was about age 30 I got a Challenger SRT launch edition when it came out. Loved the speed and doing things with it. Then I moved on to a new Porsche, and then in 2016 I purchased a Maserati. Had fun hanging out with others, the speed, etc. etc. About 4 years ago, My daughter who was 19 at the time decided that she wanted a Volkswagen Camper bus. We went to some places to look at some and she purchased a 1978 Volkswagen Westfalia and to this day it is her daily driver. At the place where she purchased it, they had a wonderful 1931 Model A roadster which my wife and I fell in love with. We purchased it the next day and I have been in love with old cars ever since. I actually sold off my newer cars and now own several early cars. Also, my 20 year old son only likes early cars and drives the Model A, Model T, and the Cole's all around and at least 4 times per week. He is also now one of the driving instructors at the Gilmore Car Museum Model T driving school, which is always sold out and probably 50% of the participants are under the 40's age range.
Club membership is not an indicator of old car ownership. For example, I belong to the Model A club (MARC) however I rarely go to a meeting or tour because I am very busy with my job. Also, many of these clubs hold activities and lunches during the week which is great for the retired set though not for people under 50. I know several other people in my area that own pre war cars and we just meet up somewhere or enjoy hanging out and driving them together. I most likely will not renew my MARC membership. The only reason I have an AACA club membership is for the Hershey swap meet and I have never been to or participated in an AACA activity outside of Hershey.
Just this weekend I was texting with another 40 something old that owns a 1920's car sharing technical and how to information. In the 'old days', getting technical help would have been to talk to the local car club expert and was a value of joining the club. These days, there is so many more avenues to get help and the communication is real time.
As far as saying the old stuff is not at the local car shows anymore is also misleading. It is a factor of time and prioritization. Do I really want to bring my 1913 car to the local car show and sit in the sun for 4 hours while a bunch of people walk around and touch things? Also with the cars and coffee car shows of today there are so many more cars available so how can you compare today to 30 years ago? 30 years ago, you essentially had pre war, 50s cars, and muscle cars so of course as a percentage of the car show crowd you were going to have more brass era. Today you have all of those, plus the 70s' cars, 80's cars, and even the 90's. Also you have the JDM's and Tuners. There is so much more out there that people can collect.
Things are changing for sure and the biggest issue that I see is the disposable income that is available to the younger generation but I see a much greater interest from the younger people in the older cars than you may thing. Here is a bonus picture of my 20 year old son cleaning the engine on the Model T in preparation for changing the head gasket.
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My son and his 1923 Cole at the festival last year. We sure do miss it this year!
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1 hour ago, AHa said:
You can buy authentic reproduction Hartfords from Packard Twin Six. They start at $250 ea. I believe. This is certainly a reasonable price, especially when you consider buying replacement parts. For a restored car, this is ideal. I'm looking for originals.
It is interesting to note only about a third of early race cars used shocks, maybe less than that, in spite of the spring recoil.
There are two originals for sale on the HCCA classifieds. https://hcca.org/classifieds.php?parts You will have to scroll down to find them. They say original but I have no info on them, just saw them the other day.
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5 hours ago, PFindlay said:
Thanks, that's a very modern looking car for 1910. It's interesting to see that the front door and panel could easily be removed - just in case I guess.
In Canada, CCM also had foredoor models in their Russell-Knight for 1910. So I guess we'll have to share the "first in North America" bragging rights.
Peter
There were so many car manufacturers at the time and not the best record keeping with timing so there are typically several car companies that have a similar creation at the same time. I think whole point about the door being able to be removed had to do with style. There were many people at the time who probably didnt want to have a solid door on the front.
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Here is the latest update on the 1920 Cole Aero 8 Tourster. After the ethanol gas that was left in the tank and vacuum tank for over 7 years did a horrible number on the fuel system, I just completed the rebuild of the vacuum tank and getting everything cleaned out. Today we reinstalled the vacuum tank, primed the engine, and then started the car. The fuel system is now working again so it was time for a test drive on the property. My son drove it around for a little bit and we noticed some new things that we need to work on:
1. The carb needs some adjustment
2. The spark advance and timing need a bit of adjustment
3. The amp meter is showing a discharge as the engine is running so we need to test the output of the generator to see if it is producing any or enough electricity to replenish the battery
We are making progress and the goal is to make this Cole a great driver. I have included a few videos of Ben driving around the Cole and then one of the engine running after the vacuum tank rebuild.
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8 hours ago, PFindlay said:
Was Cole the first American auto maker to have "foredoors" and was that in 1910?
Yes according to the information I have seen as well as Cole was advertising it as such, including even an ad in 1923. Here is the Cole and it actually came out in late 1909 though many considered it a '1910 model year' even though Cole didn't use model years. Also the motor age add mentioning some of their firsts. Cole was also the first auto company to use Firestone demountable rims. JJ Cole and Harvey Firestone were friends and Cole used Firestone demountable rims on their first autos and in return Harvey purchased the first 25 Cole's to infuse some capital into Cole's auto manufacturing. As there are so few surviving Coles, many of these accomplishments are unknown today.
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Just now, Matt Harwood said:
Right on, brother!
My wife would love that one for sure!
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My wife has no interest in my cars, but she loves driving her own cars that I got her around. We have come up with a 3 to 1 rule which is for every three cars I get, she wants a pink car to drive around.
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7 hours ago, George Cole said:
As do Cole cars. But they're direct drive from the transmission, not a pto shaft drive. Compared to everything else on Ed's 'new' White car, that pto shaft doesn't look over-engineered and sufficiently robust to drive a vintage tow truck mechanical gear drive or hydraulic pump. But obviously looks can be deceiving as apparently it was.
My 13 Cole has The tire pump in the engine compartment. It was a Taylor Noil automatic tire pump. You engage the big gear and it moves the flapper to create air. It’s all the way to the right in the pictures.
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1 hour ago, George Cole said:
Same thing with the Cole open touring cars of that vintage. Very heavy duty frame and suspension, coupled with a 346 cu in V8. Once they became long in the tooth, people would cut the bodies off behind the front seat and mount a wrecker body. That saved at least a few of them from the WWII scrap metal drives. There's several that exist today which are missing their rear body sections, or had to have them recreated for restoration.
Here you go George. Distinctive front end of a Cole, though wrong headlights. They were way overbuilt with the frame and components underneath. Getting turned into trucks definitely impacted the survivor rates of Coles.
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15 hours ago, edinmass said:
It’s time for a BIG thank you to thr many people here who offered me help, encouragement, information, and just plain sent kind words via PM on this new car adventure. It’s been ten times more fun sharing it with everyone. So far, every time I put a hand on the car, things keep getting better. I’m sure there will be some difficulty’s and unforeseen problems......it is a 103 year old car that’s been sleeping for 80 years from what I can tell. Early indications show the engine to be very clean, and having never been opened or touched. That said, the first look at the oil in the pan would take your breath away. It’s thicker than very cold pudding.......you can slice it with a knife. Good thing I decided to drop the pan. Everything else looks like a three year old engine internally. Only the actual oil is scary.....everything else so far looks fine.....we will have the pan off of it by Thursday night. I’m going to do the Evapo Rust treatment to it......in the same way Matt did to his Lincoln.........heated and pumped for a few days. I will do the block first, and the radiator second. We have a few small roadblocks already.......mostly chasing supplies and parts.......seems my everyday job is interfering with getting things done! Fortunately it’s so hot down here for the next six weeks that a delay in service and repair won’t effect the first drive date. We have decided to change things up a bit also. It will go to Hershey next year.......and we will display it’s somewhere for all fourm members to see.....maybe Steve will let me park it in the lobby at the new building! Anyway, we will be operating it there, giving rides to Intrested members........and the regulars here who are special friends can take it for a spin. What’s better than sharing the real thing after this thread comes to the end.....whenever that may be. So, with luck, many of the members will have something to look forward to at the next “full scale” fall meet. Again, thanks to EVERYONE who offered help and encouragement.......makes me want to finish the car this week! 👍
Ed,
This is a great idea and I can't wait to see the White at Hershey. You have inspired me to bring a big V8 Cole, probably the 1920 7p touring car, to Hershey next year and Ill have it in the swap meet area for people to see and members here in the forum to dig into and go for some rides. Maybe not quite as rare as your White, but still not often seen running in person. Who knows when the last time a Cole has been at Hershey or even an AACA event! The 346.4 ci V8 engine that produces almost 85HP is also one of the bigger engines of the era.
Thanks again for the inspiration to share with this great forum community!
Kevin
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55 minutes ago, edinmass said:
Getting it running update:
Well, yesterday I contacted Carbking..........looking for advice on which carburetor to run, the factory made White unit, or the Zenith thats currently on it......(found the factory carb in the storage area of the car.)....probably installed in the early 1950's when they decided to make it run, but never got that far. (I think they hit a magneto issue and gave up.) I figured........hey, no problem, Just ask Jon the Sensei of all things carbureted and get the fast, easy, correct answer and presto..........problem solved. EXCEPT - Carbking tossed me a knuckle ball that is almost impossible to hit out of the park. He unfortunatly gave me a dose of my own medicine that I have given to countless people here.......funny how was seems perfectly rational to tell someone else is a bummer when your on the recieving end! Jon's recommendation? Restore both and run them both, and then choose which one is best! SHXT! He's right........and after thinking it over, the car probably never ran with the Zenith, most likely it was bolted on and a small pony gas tank attached from what it looks like. The vaccuume tank was removed....typical of someone trying to just make the car run 70 years ago. I must admit...I don't like taking my own medicine. So, with about 20 hours of thought, tossing and turning, I have decided to run the origional White produced unit............I will clean up the Zenith and have it ready to go also, but the final answer will be after we have had both of them apart. Hope this is not causing all of you to fall asleep............I figured that with the amount of posting I have done so far, it would make an interesting thread for people who find a car and learn the bumps in the road before you go for a drive..........todays adventure, finding leather 5.5 mm thick to make a new Flexi drive for the mag........I might swap over to rubber reinforced with nylon.........not sure yet, as in southern Florida I don't know all the suppliers like I did back up north. Fix ing the car isn't too bad, finding shops to supply outside service and supplies are often harder than the repair.
This is not causing us to fall asleep at all! My son and I have been learning a good amount from the thread as we are still 'newer' to this whole thing. Keep the information coming.
Kevin
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12 hours ago, edinmass said:
Here are the factory keys, one marked ignition, the other marked tool for the tool & glove boxes. All the lock cylinders, all eight of them work and function fine.......a first on any car I have ever owned. When I brought the keys to my local lock shop, who are fantastic and enjoy working on old cars locks.....the young guy behind the counter asked me what year my Rolls Royce was.....due to the Yale locks.
Ed - This is a great find. With our 20 Cole that I acquired recently I believe we also got the original ignition key (We think). It is a Yale as well and is attached to a Cole key/watch fob with the owners name inscribed on the back. The name inscribed on the back of the Fob is the name of the original owner we tracked, but I am not familiar with Yale key history. Does this key look to be 'original'?
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36 minutes ago, edinmass said:
So, I admit to driving a lot of strange stuff......and rarely ever have a problem.....this shifting pattern will be a challenge.........
That is the same exact shifting pattern and plate on the 1915 White town car. I had a chance to really check out that car yesterday as the owner had it out for a drive, An amazing machine.
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6 hours ago, edinmass said:
When I sent AJ a photo of the car, his reaction was.......wow, that a good looking car from 1917. I agreed with him......for a Pre WWI car it’s strikingly good looking and has great proportions. Tonight I found out why..........Rubay built the body. The design was one of the first commission's that Thomas Hibbard ever did. He went on to become a founding partner in LaBaron, and then went on to Paris and was part of the Hibbard & Darrin fame. The more I look at the car, the more it reminds me of a Crane Simplex of 1916-1917 era. Same imposing size and quality.
I really like Rubay built bodies. They did some of the bodies for the Cole Aero 8 in 1918, 19, and 20. This is a Rubay Ad showing the 1919 Cole Toursedan. You got a really great White!
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2 hours ago, Andrew Benoit said:
Hi Kevin,
It’s a 1916 Cole/Northway V8. Hopefully it’s not one of the early engines they had problems with.
It’s packed away at the moment. I’ll take some photos of it next week.
Andrew
Very nice and thanks! Early 15's were the only ones that had some oiling problems but those were worked out during 15 and many of the early Cole V8 engines were serviced by Cole. By the mid point of 1915 the V8's were working so well that Cole standardized on only the V8 engine for 1916.
Actual data. 
Photo's and documents from a Barn Find in 1941
in General Discussion
Posted
I was looking through my Cole history materials and I ran across this 'Barn Find' in 1941. JJ Cole Jr., son of the founder of the Cole Motor Car Company, was trying to find Cole Motor Cars that were surviving in the early 1940's. Here is a letter from someone who was searching for these cars on behalf of JJ Cole Jr. showing a find of a 1914 Cole Series 10. Included is also a picture of the Cole in the barn as well as the owner of the Cole. The third document is a follow up letter to JJ Cole Jr. with more information and a blow up of the small picture.
It is really interesting history about searching for old cars back then, especially during WW II. A.H. Deeken seemed like an early Wayne Carini!