kfle
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Posts posted by kfle
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8 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:
I think we are all enjoying that car more and more. I didn't know it was really low milage, safe to say the upholstery is original with maybe one repaint?
The interior is all original,flooring is all original, and the top/side curtains are all original as well though we took it off. The 1911 Cole is even more original than we even thought. The car has just over 9800 original miles on it and we were wondering if the original records and stories were true. When we dropped the oil pan their was the original factory gasket. The transmission grease was so old that it had separated. The spare tire is most likely the original tire as well. While we had the oil pan down the cylinders and rods looked amazing with very little wear. My son mentioned all of the other stuff that we have discovered and we are now doubting whether it was truly repainted in thr 1950s like we had thought. There is no record of a repaint from the previous two collectors and after many reviews from people this weekend it could be the original paint. I can confirm that thr front part of thr chassis and springs were painted black and the engine compartment was repainted at some point. We will continue to investigate the paint and are going to get some more opinions on some preservation of a few areas that need attention.
We believe the Splitdorf spark plugs to be original or very early replacements. As you can imagine there were a lot of antique car experts at the old car festival so we had a lot of good conversations. There were many people that came back to look at the Cole two and three times over the weekend. You really can’t tell the intricacy and design Of the coach work from pictures on this car.
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On 9/10/2022 at 11:15 AM, 1937hd45 said:
Thank you for sharing the Cole collection, your family's passion for the brand is greatly admired. Haven't been to Greenfield Village in 45 years, what is the large open building in the first photo, looks like the Wright Brothers are expanding their building.
Bob
The pavilion is the market as mentioned. The other building that is being expanded in the picture is not the wright brothers, it is the old jewelry store and the add on is going to new dining experience.
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41 minutes ago, Walt G said:
Further information on the Vanderbilt Cup Massapequa sweepstakes courtesy of my buddy Howard Kroplick who has the Vanderbilt Cup Races. com website for everything you need to know about the Vanderbilt Cup Races and The Vanderbilt Motor Parkway. Massapequa, NY is not far from either Howard nor myself from where we live here on long island. I mentioned this post to him and he provided the following:
Here is information on the plaque: https://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/blog/article/question_of_the_day_can_you_identitfy_this_1911_vanderbilia
Link to Cole information: https://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/blog/tag/1910+massapequa+sweepstakes
The Massapequa Trophy won by Cole: https://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/blog/article/thursday_october_29_2009_the_massapequa_sweepstakes_trophy_reappers
Thanks to Howard ! if you haven't looked at the Vanderbiltcupraces.com site do so weekly, really interesting. Has great material and information on Mustangs ( he collects those too) and the 1937 Chrysler Imperial town car built for Della Chrysler, W.P. Chrysler's wife. that car spent its whole life here on long island within 55 miles of where I reside.
Walt
Thanks Walt as always. That is a fascinating site and wonderful reading. Here is a recent picture of the trophy that a member of the Cole family sent me just the other day.
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My son mentioned the original dealer book that we have for the car. The total dealer brochure is 24 pages and here are a few snapshots from it. Since this was the second series of cars from the Cole Motor Car Company, JJ Cole was selling the cars for slightly above cost to get the name and product into the market. While still expensive in 1911, prices of Coles started to increase higher in 1913. It was a lot of car for the money comparatively at the time.
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21 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:
Toy Tonneau bodies on any chassis are great looking. Is the Cole about the same size as a 1911 Cadillac? What is the item to the left of the ignition switch? Do you have the missing ID plate? Love the curved door top wood. Bob
The Cole is a bit bigger than the Cadillac Toy Tonneau by about a foot and the engine is also larger. The 'missing ID plate' that you can see the ghost of on the wood was a modern ID plate that the previous owner put on it in 1995 that held his car registration. It was ugly and I popped it off. When we clean the car up, some of the ghosting will disappear.
The plaque that is to the left of the ignition switch is the tribute plaque that was placed on the 1911 Cole Speedster, roadsters, and Toy Tonneaus to commemorate the winning of the big race the year before. It is a replica of one of the Vanderbilt cup trophies and is very detailed. Here is a close up of the plaque from one that I have in my collection that was taken off a car. It is a very hard to find item and it is great that this Cole still has it on there.
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6 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:
Another Cole? The cowl lights are in the same area.
Bob
Yes, this is the Cole roadster model which is the sister car to the Toy Tonneau in the line up.
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6 hours ago, KLF said:
The engine is almost identical to my 1912 Oakland engine which was made by Northway. I believe Coles used Northway engines for some of the years.
Ken
Yes, Cole used Northway engines, however Cole's Chief Engineer, Charles Crawford worked with Northway to make some of their own design and optimization improvements.
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43 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:
Hey there Kevin! I believe the Chalmers Detroit is in the last photo of the 1911 Cole toy tonneau. The Sears in next to the 1911 Cole in the first photo of it! (Not counting the advertisement or engine photo)
Ahhh ok. That photo was in the barn in Iowa where we picked it up.
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7 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:
Wonderful additions to the Cole collection! I also love the Sears parked next to the 1911 toy tonneau. Is it yours also?
Actually that is a 1910 chalmers Detroit next to it and is not ours.
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3 minutes ago, Barney Eaton said:
Do you know Mr B Hall in Clermont Indiana? He has a couple of Coles
Yes we know Beauford and have been to his place a few times over the years.
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It has been great putting together the collection of six autos from the Cole Motor Car company with my son Ben! We have learned so much and have put together a one of a kind collection of very rare autos that are not often seen. Three of our Coles were owned by the JJ Cole family during the time of the company. The latest Cole, which is the Toy Tonneau, came out of Iowa and needs some good cleaning up, some new tires, and some general sorting out. It is an amazing auto and here is an original ad for it.
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3 minutes ago, TerryB said:
Heat is an indicator of excessive current flow over and above what the device is designed to operate. It most likely is the starter that is drawing the high amount of electric current. The harder the starter has to work the more electric current it will draw. You might want to examine the starter and possibly the engine itself to see if something is stuck.
Thanks. Engine is good to go and will start and runs well. I will take a look at the starter itself. Still wondering why the replacement solenoid wont do what the old solenoid does?
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On my 1917 Cole, the starter now barely engages to turn over the engine. The starter solenoid also gets very hot and I read that this behavior is a sign that the starter solenoid is bad. I ordered a new 6v solenoid and when I install it, the starter wont engage at all. I put the old one back in and the starter gets one revolution and then stops. Are there different kinds of 6v starter solenoids? I am really trying to understand why the brand new one that I purchased wont engage.
The black solenoid is the part that is on the Cole and seems to be bad while the silver one is the new 6v one that I picked up. Any help is appreciated!
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Here is the Gilmore Car Museum and Partner Museums Show schedule for this year. The schedule is similar every year. Even the Wednesday night cruise inns get 600+ cars in attendance. My shop is about 10 miles from the Gilmore.
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Great first show, Greg! The more shows for authentic pre-war cars, the better.
I will see what next year brings, but maybe I could bring one of the Coles down from Michigan.
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14 minutes ago, GregLaR said:
Hmmm? Perhaps we're just looking through the opposite end of the telescope.
I'd be curious to know, if you could take one of these 1990's era Auburn replicars with it's big block Chevrolet engine, automatic transmission, disc brakes, rack & pinion steering, air conditioning, etc. back to 1935 and offer it as a comparison to those who had an authentic Auburn, what their impressions may be and which car they would feel is "better"?
replicar is completely the wrong terminology for this car. It is a auburn recreation, kind of like the term that was added recently for restoration where you put modern components into an antique car (restomod). Here is the way to look at the topic
Auto recreation - like the example auburn or the Shay Model A. The car was built to resemble an original older car, but the the design has been recreated to include modern components and looks.
Auto Replica - An exacting or very close replica of the original car to bring the car to more people so they are able to experience the original car like it was intended. These should be licensed by the original maker where possible
Continuation auto - A car that is so exact that it is continued build of the original and continues with the original serial numbers. For example the Superformance Cobra CSX and GT40's are continuation vehicles and get new serial numbers continued from the old and can join the original registries and participate in the original events.
I personally dont like Auto recreations but to each their own. I do however think that true replicas and continuation autos are a great way to expand the auto hobby and experience. They should be welcomed by auto enthusiasts and clubs. There is nothing modern at all in my superformance cobra. I still even have to manually flip the toggle switch on the dash when the engine heats up to turn the cooling fan on. The gauges are all Smith's gauges just like the original AC had and the speedometer needle bounces around like a jumping bean so you know the speed your going plus or minus 20 🙂
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1 hour ago, TTR said:
Owning/driving a fake (vintage) car is no different than wearing a fake Rolex or fake Gucci or Luis Vuitton garments (ask your wives about that one).
That depends on how it is done and the the intent of it. I have 9 true original antique cars and am a stickler for originality, however I would never spend $1.5M on a real shelby cobra, and if I did I wouldnt drive it once or twice a week. So to get the same experience if you buy one that is licensed by the original makers and built to essentially the same specs, etc. then I say go for it and have fun with it!
A fake rolex or fake gucci is not built to the original specs and licensed by Rolex and Gucci. You are comparing Apples to Oranges to what I posted. You should read this article by Jay Leno. Leno: It’s time to let true replicas into the club - Hagerty Media
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On 3/4/2022 at 5:15 PM, 1912Staver said:
In my area Fiero's are actually fairly scarce. But as far as I know only a few replica's use them as a starting point. Most that I know of have a custom fabricated frame, Cobra's, Mid engined Factory 5's ETC. Pretty much any " replica " or builder assembled super car.
Many people want to build it themselves ; as often as not with way too much engine, but that is a conversation in itself.
A turn key , limited production , replica has to be a pretty big ticket item. Hard to say how much of a market exists for something in this segment. Higher end kit cars however seem to be doing quite well.
Quite a few years ago at the Monterey Historics there was a vender selling Cobra , and I believe GT 40 replicas. They looked pretty good, but of course way out of my reach. Turn key, just like what this new development is covering. Did it become illegal to sell replicas of this type in more recent years ? Because of the price I really have not paid any attention to these sorts of cars.
The Vendor you are talking about that sells the Cobra, GT40, and Daytona replicas at big concours and events is a company called Superformance. They are licensed by Shelby for the Cobra and the Daytonas and Ford for the GT 40's. Their cars are either licensed replicas or continuation vehicles depending on which exact one you get from them. They also are limited to a set number of year, for example they are limited to 100 total cobras per year. They actually have a good method of production to not fall into the automotive laws such as this. They completely build a 'roller' in south africa that is just missing the engine and trans. They then ship the roller to their dealer in whatever country and they install the engine and trans. This way they dont have to meet emissions and crash testing that goes into being a full on vehicle manufacturer. The vehicles are the most like the original experience in driving these autos and are solid without having a kit car that who knows how good the builder was. Superformance has designed the chassis and all of that to Shelby specs and approval so there is no 'doner' vehicle. Now you may wonder why South Africa? They have a partnership with Hi-Tech since the mid 90's. Hi-Tech is the expert in custom automotive bodies and produces customs for rolls royce, etc, so the quality and ability is extremely high.
Here is what Carrol said back when they put together the deal 'Superformance Cobra replicas are the only Cobra Replica on the market that are Authorized, Endorsed and Licensed by Shelby Licensing. As Stated by Carrol Shelby himself "Fact is, soon as it's less than a real Cobra, not built by me, it's counterfeit. There’s an exception when it comes to Jimmy Price and Lance Stander. Superformance International makes replica Cobra in South Africa and calls the two-seat roadster they build the MKIII. It's still not a true Shelby, but I've endorsed and licensed the car for being as close to correct and well-built as possible. I can't say the same for others."'
They are not easy to get though, as for a new Superformance Cobra it will cost you about $160k complete and there is a about a 2 year waiting list. I have a Superformance Cobra that was built in 2003 and it is one of the most fun cars to drive and puts a smile on my face every time. When I take it to a cars and coffee or a local cruise in, not many can distinguish it from an original 427 SC.
Anyways, I am all for getting quality built specialty cars on the road as there needs to be more fun stuff to drive!
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59 minutes ago, Walt G said:
I am in total agreement with Dandy Dave, you never ever stop learning. It is why we are all reading this now , and contributing to the forums. The original source material for the real story ( 99% of the time) is in the periodicals, reports in newspapers ( especially new car shows) and trade magazines of the era that were mostly only available for those 'in the trade' especially body builders and body supplies. Difficult to locate the specific magazines that were of very low volume production and not for sale on news stands with other magazines and newspapers. But that is where the real story is, both here and in Europe.
Absolutely. I have tons of Cole source material from those hard to find magazines and articles as well as the Cole material as well. The gentleman that used to run the Cole Registry spent 30 years searching out Cole material and information and now I have quite a bit of it. There is quite a bit more information about the Springfield body stuff related to Cole than what is on Coachbilt as Cole spent some time with them enhancing the design. Then they never built a lot of the Toursedan bodies because not only the Springfield bankruptcy but there was a fire at the Cole factory in the finishing department that destroyed many of the bodies and components. That was all found out from the trade magazines of the day.
Here are a few scans from probably one of the few surviv
ing specific Toursedan Brochures. I have seen full model year catalogs from this year but never another model specific brochure. Has quite a bit of info and was with the car.
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1 hour ago, 8E45E said:
That's it?
I had the impression you were in the hobby for 40+ years, from what I've been reading in your posts.
Craig
yep thats it. I just turned 51 years old 6 days ago and got into antique cars when I purchased a 1931 Ford Model A about 6 years ago. Before that, the only cars I was into was new cars, though just to drive. That Model A was an impulse buy and it led to all of this.
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20 hours ago, edinmass said:
It’s not obvious from the video, but the car has one major flaw.......just like all of Kevin’s other cars.......I don’t own it.
Kevin has a great eye and keeps buying good cars without stories........at least “bad stories”..........very unusual for a relative newcomer to the pre war world........speaks volumes about his taste and sophistication. He gets three thumbs up from me.......he figured out early cars quickly.....I know guys in the hobby fifty years and still don’t get it. 👍👍👍
Thanks and I appreciate it! I love interesting cars and especially ones with a good story! I have now been at the old car hobby for 5 or 6 years now and learn more every day.
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8 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:
What a fine car, and in such pristine condition, I had not been aware of this model with it's special features. I note in the original owner photos that the belt line appears to be black (darker than lower body) and matching top color, and D pillar and front upper door posts black as well. Any thoughts? The 1917 illustration shows car in all blue. Is it possible the 2-tone paint was a later owner decision? Not that it matters, car looks splendid either way.
Anything is possible. Cole also didnt have a 'standard factory paint scheme'. The purchaser could get the car painted any way they wanted it and of course things were probably changed over the years.
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10 hours ago, edinmass said:
Two…..until Kevin picked up the flag and ran with it! Fortunately, people like him keep the brand alive with a roster, website, and articles published for the duration. 👍
Interestingly enough, there have been many people with multiple Coles. For whatever reason, when someone gets a Cole they seem to want more. Out of the 79 Coles that are known to survive today:
I have 5 Coles
There is a pretty private individual in Michigan that has 7 Coles
The co founder of RM Sotheby's has 4 Coles
Another Gentleman in Indianapolis has 3 Coles
George on this forum has 2 Coles
There are a few more multiple owners as well.
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10 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:
How many Cole automobiles do you need to find to have the World's Largest Cole Collection?
Well, you would think that it would be me with 5 Coles, but I am not the person who has the most Coles currently. There is another gentleman in Michigan who is a private person that has 7 Coles. He has a large car collection, but has a special fondness for Coles.
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ing specific Toursedan Brochures. I have seen full model year catalogs from this year but never another model specific brochure. Has quite a bit of info and was with the car.
My family’s latest Coles added to the collection
in General Discussion
Posted
It was great talking to you at the event and we will do it another time for sure. If your ever in the area Of the Gilmore car museum, just let me know and we can work something out.