[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

8 minutes ago, cpwalter said:

Had to break out my Standard Catalog of American Cars after seeing your pictures and familiarize myself about the Cole, It had a short life span but produced some good looking cars. Wonder what would have happened to the brand had Cole taken the offer from Durant to join GM and where would it have fit in the lineup? Being from West Michigan how did you get interested in the Cole family of cars?

The Standard Catalog of American Cars isnt entirely accurate when it comes to Cole, but it gives you a close enough overview 🙂  Durant actually tried to acquire Cole 3 times, but JJ Cole refused each time and was a proud man.  He wasnt happy with where the industry was going so he liquidated the company in late 24.  In the teens, Cole was second only to Cadillac in luxury car sales.

 

Now as to how I got interested in Cole, I was at an auction about 7 years ago in Kokomo Indiana where the local museum lost their building so they sold off their cars.  My son convinced me to keep bidding on the 1913 Cole and I ended up winning the auction.  When you see the quality and design of the Cole in person, it is quite a car.  I then got to know the guy that ran the Cole registry for 30 years and the more I learned about the cars and the company, I was hooked.  Given the overall small amount of surviving Coles in the world it is quite amazing that there are 6 collectors that own multiple Coles.  It is a testament to the quality and power of the car.  

[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

A few asked for some better pictures of the other individual Coles.  

 

Here is the 1920 Cole Aero 8 Tourster at a CCCA event.  For size comparisons there is a 1930's Bentley.  

 

Here is the 1913 Cole Series 9 sitting at Detroit Classic and Exotics about 4 years ago after I had Brian Joseph put the pin striping back on it and do some other mechanical things to it.  

Here is the 1911 Toy Tonneau, with the 1913 next to it

 

Here is the 1917 Toursedan with Convertible body by Springfield.  

 

 

 

[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

2 hours ago, PhillyFordGuy said:

Terrific post, thank you! Would you say you have the pre-eminent Cole collection in existence? Or are there rivals?

As far as number of Coles, there is one other individual who has 6 Coles.  He is a very private individual, has a very large overall collection, and has never taken one of his cars to a car show or event in his life.  Also, the Co-founder of RmSotheby's has 4 Coles.  There are a total of 79 cars known to still exist of all years (1909-1925) out of just under 41,000 cars that were produced.  If you start to break this down, a portion of those 79 are not running or complete cars and then over half are buried in collections or at museums.  There are probably only about 20 that actually make it out to public events and that is why you don't see one often.  Also there are very few Coles that ever go up for public sale.  

 

As far as significance, my Collection is at the top with three of the JJ Cole family cars and four of the six of my cars are the only surviving examples known to survive (2 of them being custom one off builds by JJ Cole).  The Co-founder of RMSotheby's has the 4th Cole Family car.  Here is a picture from the JJ Cole family taking their 4 family cars out for a trip to a park in Indianapolis during the mid 1940's.  The front white 1919 Cole Roadster is the one that I dont have with the following three in the line-up being mine.  

[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

12 minutes ago, pmhowe said:

Thanks for the post. I particularly like the lines of the mid-twenties coupe. The low back outline makes it look quite sporting for the time. Obviously not designed for long trips with lots of baggage, however. The double spare on the rear clearly speaks to what was thought of tire survival in those days. I'm guessing a wheelbase of around 126"? And what kind of engine did it have?
Thanks,

Phil

It is powered by a 90HP V8 engine.  Actually the car was the test car with Firestone for balloon tires which were less than 30psi and had few flats. The car was at the New York and Chicago auto shows in 1923 and the dual tire rack on back was actually the display rack to show off the new balloon tires at the auto shows.  That car is a custom body and is 127.5” wheel base and the design was meant to draw people in at the auto shows.  This picture will help give you a perspective on scale.  That is my son who was 21 in this picture standing next to it.  

[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

1 minute ago, JamesR said:

 

A generous offer and those are some beautiful cars! They exude quality. Eighty and ninety horsepower was a whole lot for the early 1920's. What was the typical top speed for this era of Cole?

That really depends on the gearing of the specific Cole model.  They are three speed cars and geared for lots of torque and power.  Also, the premise was making it so you could be in third gear from 4mph to top speed so that you didnt have to shift.  Now the sport models had different gearing and utilize the power better.  When Cole introduced their V8 in January of 1915, 4 months after Cadillac, their engine was bigger and in the late teens only Cunningham was bigger.  My son has had the 1923 Sport Coupe up to 70mph, however the 1920 big Touring car likes 50mph.  Teams loved to use the Cole chassis with the V8 for racing and one of them beat the record by the Blitzen Benz.  Here is an ad from 1919 for the Sportster and then an overview of one of the Cole racing cars using the same V8.  Read the ad copy for the Sportster on the performance specs.  

 

 

 

 

[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

I am selling my work shop facility that is close the Gilmore Car Museum as I am mostly in Florida now, so I got a unit at a collector car storage facility in West Michigan.  Anyways, I moved the cars over the weekend and now all of the cars from the Cole Motor Car Company are in one room lined up by year.  After I got them in there, myself and a few friends just sat and enjoyed them while talking history.  

 

From front left to front right

1. 1911 Cole Toy Tonneau, 4 cylinder 40HP- the only one known to survive

2. 1913 Cole Series 9, 4 cylinder 50HP - One of two known to survive and owned by the JJ Cole Family

3. 1920 Cole Aero 8 7p Tourster, 346.6 ci 80 HP V8

4. 1923 Cole 890 Two Person Coupe, 346.6 90 HP V8 - Test car for balloon tires in partnership with Firestone, owned by the JJ Cole Family until 1990, and was the Cole Display car at the New York and Chicago Auto show in 1923.  

5. 1925 Cole 890 Brouette with a custom body by Willoughby, 346.6 90 HP V8 - Mrs. Cole's personal Chauffer driven car that was owned by the Cole family until 2007.

 

I have a sixth Cole that is a 1917 Cole Toursedan with a special convertible body by Springfield, though that one is with someone who is replacing the leather on the Cone Clutch.  That one will then join the other five in the next two weeks.  

 

 

Here is a better shot of the 1923 and 1925.  They are quite large cars so had to park them at more of an angle than I was planning.  

 

Now I will be moving in all of the Cole signs and memorabilia as well as other cars and decorations.  If you ever find yourself in West Michigan and want to see the Cole's, just let me know!

[1922 Maxwell]

12 hours ago, Ken Cross said:

Would the 1922 Maxwell come with spoked  wheels ?

most pics show with steel wheels !

is this car Brochure from a 1922 ?

No wood spoke wheels.  The late teens and early 20's Maxwells were not good and when Chrysler took over in 1921, he redesigned them and launched 'The Good Maxwell' in 1922.  All 1922 Maxwells came with Disc wheels.  Here is a summary of Maxwells.  

Here is a page from the 1922 Maxwell Sales brochure. 

 

 

 

[I believe that this is a 1917 or so Olds V8 engine]

Northway V8s were different depending on the car.  Cole’s version was completely their own design by Charles Crawford as shown in the post before my reply.  Northway also manufactured Cadillacs V8 and Oldsmobiles V8.  All three were different engines and Coles was the largest.  That one does look like the 16 Olds as mentioned and I believe they only had two main bearings.  I can’t recall though if all of the Olds years used the smaller 2 main bearing design.  

[The Unrestored Car Appreciation Thread]

A few more pictures of the 1911 Cole that has never been restored.  

 

Lubrication instructions under the wood that the front seat sits on that covers the gas tank

 

Prestolite tank with original lettering

 

Original Plugs in the engine as the cole only has 7800 miles on it

 

 

The very fragile top and battery compartment/tool box are original as well as I was able to match some markings to Cole materials.  

[The Unrestored Car Appreciation Thread]

Here is my unrestored 1911 Cole Toy Tonneau which is the only known surviving one in the world.  It has not been fully restored and only had an over paint on the body in the late 1940's.  

You can see the original linoleum on the floor and wood.  

 

Original Leather and seating

[What are the Best Looking Prewar FOUR-DOOR Sedans? Custom and Production.]

I would be remiss if I didnt add Mrs. Cole's personal chauffeur driven car with a custom body by Willoughby built in 1924.  I think it has a great look for the period and it has never been restored just carefully maintained so that is mostly the original paint showing her taste in colors at the time.  For fun, I have included a page from the write up that the National Park Service did after their inspection as the car was on the National Register of Historic Places with the JJ Cole Mansion. 

[Bill Harrah Auctions - 1920 Stutz Roadster]

The days of Harrah was before my time but as the keeper of Cole Motor Car history and the registry, I ran across this story and have copies of private letters between Bill Harrah and someone he was trying to purchase a 1917 Cole Tourscoupe off of. Apparently he had a hard time finding a Cole for his collection and display.  There was also a 1917 Cole Clover Leaf Roadster that was in a collection that he acquired but it was not in good shape at all and he gave it as a finders fee to his car finder.  Here is the story of that from my records about that car. 

 

'During my first visit Gen. Braund took four hours showing my wife, me and our two year old twins, Aaron and Michael his automobile collection. Many were outside, in barns, fields, woods, small shelters, big airplane hangers (4), etc. There were over 400 cars in all, with many parts and parts cars in this huge collection. He had been the lifelong friend of Bill Harrah, of Harrah’s famous Auto Collection and for many years had been the #1 finder and locator of rare automobiles for Mr. Harrah. He found thousands of automobiles in that timeline & I have heard most of those great stories. The COLE was one of those. He said, he found a large collection in the late 50’s along the Red River, between Minnesota and North Dakota. He bought many of the pieces for Mr. Harrah and Bill gave him the COLE as part of his finders fee. Dick told me, he found a much better COLE for Bill Harrah, thus he was allowed to keep this one. He told me that through the years many of his automobiles came from buying 20 cars, Bill only took 12 and Dick either bought the remaining 8 or Bill allowed him to keep the remaining ones in lieu of finders fee, expenses, etc. I loved the COLE the minute I laid eyes on her. Big, bold, V8 and most unique. I had no idea at the time it was only 1 of 2 known to exist (that came in the late 80’s) but Dick kept telling me this was one of the rarest of his collection. But he had many; 1906 Buick, and early 1900’s Glide, 1907 Thomas Flyer turned on end inside a grain bin (now that was a site), 1912 Cadillac Touring, many teen rare pieces, 1911 Pierce Arrow Roadster, Wacco byplane hanging from the attic roof in his home, the list went on and on. A most interesting man, this General Richard Ivan Braund, and we became friends'

 

 

Here is the picture of the only Cole that Harrah owned in his collection which is the 1917 Cole Tourscoupe.  It was not sold off in all of those auctions and remains in the National museum in Reno.  Harrah purchased it restored and took quite a bit of convincing of the owner to sell it to him.  

[Period images to relieve some of the stress]

[Period images to relieve some of the stress]

1920 Indianapolis.  Recognize any makes in here?  Lower left front is a Cole Aero 8 Sportosine. 

[Late 1910's/early 1920's 0-50mph times]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Having driven most of the cars in the chart……..and driven my 1917 White at 72 mph……….I can tell you it’s mostly bullxhit. The numbers are not based on any type of reality. The only reason the White is included is it has the highest horsepower rating published in 1917 that I am aware of. Of course the Pierce 48 is about 40 percent more horsepower. I would take the entire chart and toss it in the trash.

Agreed, I was skeptical myself of the chart as I know how that White engine performs from my friend's car!  It has more power than his Packard twin six.   His White is probably heavier than yours and for sure more top heavy with that Limo body (Whatever you call it), but it screams.  We were thinking about taking his White limo and my 1917 Cole Springfield body limo to the Old Car festival next year and putting them next to each other to show two high powered limo's next to each other.  If we had a third trailer we would bring his 1916 Packard twin six limo as well.

[Late 1910's/early 1920's 0-50mph times]

2 hours ago, PFindlay said:

Interesting to read but also a bit biased as are all such advertiser's claims.   Note that the Packard chart records E.T. for 5 - 50 mph, not 0 - 50 as Cole claims.  Likely the Packard chart is referring to high gear acceleration so shift time is not a factor.  If the Cole number is anywhere near accurate it seems pretty impressive, but ...

I own four V8 Coles and they are torque monsters!  My 1920 Aero 8 touring wants to move off the start though I haven’t timed it. The sportster model was geared a bit different similar to my 1923 custom sport coupe.  

[Late 1910's/early 1920's 0-50mph times]

2 hours ago, Tph479 said:

1917 information. Tested by Jessie Vincent from Packard.

Thanks for this and was exactly what I was looking for!  The thing I don't know about with the Cole numbers were the conditions.  The weight is similar for the Cole at about 4000lbs, though I am speculating they didnt have the car loaded with 5 people.  I will do some more digging.  

[Late 1910's/early 1920's 0-50mph times]

I ran across this ad in my collection of Cole stuff for a 1919 Cole Aero 8 Sportster powered by a 346.6 cubic inch V8.  The ad is highly interesting as it gives high performance data as a selling point.  It also says that this high performance makes it the 'World's Safest Car'. A few points that the car mentions are being able to take hair pin turns at 40+mph and acceleration of 0-50mph in 22 seconds.  It also talks about braking performance.  

 

Two Questions:

 

1. Does anyone know a source for car 0-50mph times for that era?  I am trying to compare the performance mentioned here to other makes.

2. Does anyone know any other similar ads at the time for other makes that are high performance oriented.  I am trying to determine if this is one of the earliest auto ads focused on performance of the car.  

 

[Classic cars converted to EV]

12 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

I do agree - EV or ICE engine swaps are the same if the car is no longer original. Truth: fact is pretty apparent... the car hobby overall is weighted heavily towards modified. Visit a local car show or cruise in, or see the vendors at SEMA. It was inevitable that EV swaps would be a thing.

 

"History" comment:  How many properly restored cars is required to retain history?

Modifications and changes are nothing new in the auto hobby going back to when people use to make their model T's into speedsters and early hot rods.  Resto Mods are especially popular and I would see an electric swap similar to a LS4 crate motor swap.  It is the choice of drive train and power.  I personally collect and drive original cars but this really doesnt bother me when I go to a show as at the end of the day it is about the car culture and keeping these cars on the road.  Now where I would have a problem is if it was an extremely rare almost one of a kind car where we dont have many already preserved.  

 

Here is a great example.  Stutz Bearcat with a modern engine 🙂  Probably a repro body as well but the point stands - What is the difference between a more modern ICE engine versus just putting an electric system in here?  

[Classic cars converted to EV]

We will see if this trend grows or becomes a consistent niche option.  Just out today is the annual KPMG survey of 900 Auto executives.  A big drop in EV confidence and enthusiasm.  Still a lot to work out here and will be interesting to see the impact on classic cars.  

 

"Amid those concerns, KPMG reports automotive executives are less bullish about the prevalence of all-electric vehicles in the U.S. and globally by 2030. Estimates of new vehicles sold being EVs by then globally ranged from 10% to 40% in this year’s survey, down from 20% to 70% a year earlier.

For the U.S., the median expectation for EV sales was 35% of the new vehicle market — down from 65% a year earlier and significantly lower than the Biden administration’s 50% goal by 2030"

 

Auto execs less confident in EV adoption amid economic fears: KPMG (cnbc.com)

[Period images to relieve some of the stress]

1909 Photo of the Cole Carriage Company next to the new Cole Motor Car company. The Cole Carriage company was dissolved that year after selling off the last of their Cole high wheelers while JJ Cole launched his Cole 30 motor cars under the Cole Motor Car Company. Indianapolis State Fair.  JJ Cole produced 172 Cole high wheelers under his Carriage company before realizing that high wheelers were not the future of the auto industry and deciding that a car company could not be associated with carriages.  This is why he dissolved the old company and launched the new one.  Henderson Motor Sales was the exclusive Cole Motor Company dealer during 1909. 

[Period images to relieve some of the stress]

1920 Cole Aero 8 Roadster  

[The Car Culture is Alive and Well.....Just Different]

5 hours ago, Scott Bonesteel said:

Walt G, as usual, hit the nail right on the head.  Yes, most 'cars and coffee' are mostly newer cars but it is important that those of us with gray/no hair get our older cars out there to be seen.  Every time I have shown up with my '34 there has been at least one younger person for whom that is a first experience with a truly old car and who expressed an interest in getting into that part of the hobby.  Can't expect them to get into older stuff if they never have a chance to see some.  Last cars and coffee I went to was a pretty good mix albeit mostly 60s and newer but the guy that brought out his '29 Packard roadster had a crowd of young and old around his (admittedly gorgeous) car all morning.  Car guys (and gals) are car guys, be it rice rockets or sleeve valve cars.  We are all ambassadors for the hobby so do your part to keep it going.  Maybe you will also find a new interest area. (That Honda bike from the '60s shown above brought back lots of memories!!)

Spot on!  Meet them where they are and you will be surprised how much interest there will be.

[The Car Culture is Alive and Well.....Just Different]

6 hours ago, Walt G said:

Although I am very much pro Pre WWII era for vehicles and am not at all interested in the late model "boy racer" ( that's a phrase British friends use mostly) flying door stop styled cars. I am encouraged to see such a good reception by younger people -  at least they like things with wheels and are not staring at a screen to "have an experience" with a car . It's like looking in a magazine at a photo. They are walking around and seeing the cars from all angles , their shape in person. It gives them perspective.  This is why I love the older cars, so much more perspective , the form with  flat and rounded planes in harmony of design. It is why I research and write stories about those for a bit better understanding.

Any dose of car experience from major exhibits, shows, concours to cruise nights are worthy - gets people to experience the real deal in person. Kinda like listening to a CD for music and attending a concert in person. Same music but totally different experience.

SO although 99% of what is shown here isn't my thing at all styling or power wise ( I favor running boards, somewhat perpendicular design, and straight - in line engines) I do appreciate what is going on and pictured here. Thank you.

Some years ago there was a popular phrase that has now diminished and is not used much - it needs to be revived big time  - TAKE A KID TO A CAR SHOW. 

Hopefully with the pandemic behind us (?) we can all do that and even more important see if you can take a kid and their folks for a ride in your pre  1960 car. It is probably something their parents have never had the experience of . 😄

Agreed Walt and you know where my primary passion lies as well.  One thing I would also add besides bringing a kid to a car show, is that the people that own pre war cars need to take their cars to events such as this which is where the younger people are at.  We spent too much time lamenting why the young people dont come to the early car show, club event, or tour and instead we need to spend more time bringing our early cars to these events.  

 

Unfortunately, I dont have any pre war cars down here in Florida otherwise I would as it would be a lot of fun!

[The Car Culture is Alive and Well.....Just Different]

33 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

When I first read the authors description, I wasn't expecting to see lots of gray/no hair people. There were a lot of old farts there.👏

The ones that were there were around some of the older cars that I shared pictures of, overall not many in proportion.  Not a single grey hair in the other areas such as these.  I was curating the earlier pictures to show some cars that the people on the forum may like 🙂 I could go on and on, but you get the idea with the type of crowd that was there.  

 

 

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