kfle
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Posts posted by kfle
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This document is for Al who gave me a call today. Hopefully you can find the serial number on your 24!
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8 hours ago, JV Puleo said:
The late Harold Sharon warned against lubricating brass car springs saying that the interleaf tension had a shock absorbing effect. I don't always agree with Harold but this seems to make sense as long as the springs have been disassembled and cleaned and then painted...but, I confess I don't know. I plan to fit Hartford friction shocks to my car so I'm not sure the tension he was talking about is necessary.
There are probably differences between earlier brass cars to the early 20's to the big classics in the late 20's and 30's. Also differences between the engineers at different manufacturers as well. Here is a direct copy from the 1920 Cadillac Type 61 Shop Manual that was given to the mechanics and service departments for Cadillac. This is their guidance on Spring lubrication and also from troubleshooting on the ride of the car. The troubleshooting section points you to the lubrication as well as replacement if the lubrication doesn't work. The Type 61 was the big Cadillac with the V8 engine. I was lucky enough to find this shop manual and it is excellent. I have two V8 Cole's from the early 20's that are similar to the Cadillac and a Cole shop or service manual is not known to exist. A lot of what you see out there today is from people applying modern knowledge to fixing and how they would do it. I try to go by the recommendations of what I can find from original materials.
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2 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:
This period photo appeared on another website as a example of touring in the 1920's. It appears to be s Cole Eight touring parked in front of the Hotel Coarse Gold.
Thanks for sharing and I have not seen that picture before. That is a 1919-1921 Cole Aero 8 Tourster. 1922 had side mounted spares and then for 1923 they went to big barrel headlights. Here is a nice picture of 1922 Cole Aero 8 with the side mounted tires. Otherwise very similar wo the picture you shared.
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For whatever reason I watched the live bidding on the car and it got up to $375k which didn't meet reserve so they passed on the lot. I was shocked that the bidding made it that high.
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I have only been a member of the CCCA for about 1 year now and I have thought the logo represents the CCCA well. There are probably some things you could do to 'modernize' it but I don't think it turns anyone away either.
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The 22 Maxwell sold on November 7th.
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4 hours ago, edinmass said:
I paid 6.49 a gallon in California last week in the boondocks.
I also got to see the start and middle portion of the Kincaid fire in Sonoma and Russian River Vally.
The blackouts to prevent fires didn’t work.....they started five fires, burned half the valley, and with no power, getting gas for a 80 year old gas hog was interesting.
California is a third world country...........and it’s a shame.
In West Michigan by the Gilmore Car museum I paid $2.09 a gallon for my pickup and then at the same gas station paid $2.69 a gallon for 100% ethanol free gas for my old cars. I could not imagine paying those prices in California!
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13 minutes ago, Pfeil said:
The grandchildren except for two are in their early 30's, It's the great grandchildren especially the 13 and 10 year old that I'm listening in on. I listen to what they are telling me of their world, what is taught in school, what the teachers are saying, what other kids are saying. They act more of the weathervane so it's not that they don't share my views.
My case is not opposite, I would love this hobby to continue. I wouldn't want my 6 collector cars to be crushed anymore that you would yours. Don't shoot the messenger.
Who is shooting the messenger? I just don’t understand how you can take the views of your great grand children and apply that everywhere? My youngest son is 16 so about in the same ballpark as your great grand children and I hear differently. I live in the Detroit area so am very intune to the automotive trends and market. I have also been in the high tech industry that haS ushered in this change for over twenty five years. Myself and others that I know like me look at the old cars as a get away from the fast paced high tech life that we live almost 24 hours a day. It is very therapeutic to drive and work on a car from the 1910s. The hobby to me is about having fun and enjoying the cars and less about having the cars judged, hanging out in clubs, and hyper focusing on value.
I would posit that in the future the old cars will have owners, drivers, and enthusiasts, however the old clubs and current old car social structure will fade away.
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7 hours ago, Pfeil said:
I have six collectible cars, I was in automotive engineering for 34 plus years, a mechanic before that. I love cars. When I was a kid I wanted to work on and run steam locos like my grandfather did. Virtually all of that went away in the L.A. area and most of the country in 1956 when electric and diesel electric loco's appeared. My dream vanished, however my grandfather had warned me it was coming. Being in the industry as it unfolds gives one a preview of things to come. Now my love of cars as we all know them is also coming to a close. Do yo have grandchildren? listen to them. I've got 4 and 4 great grandkids and the oldest is 13. Listen to them.
Agitator is a rather harsh word to give to someone expressing a opinion.
Sorry to hear that your grandchildren do not share your views but you can’t take their view and generalize it across everyone. I am 48 and never was into old cars. About three years ago that bit flipped when on an impulse by I purchased a Ford Model A roadster. My 20 year old daughter at the time dragged my wife and I to a car place so she could look at a VW bus. While looking at the bus we saw that Model A and fell in love. My daughter bought the bus and we bought the Model A. I didn’t t know one thing about it, though I learned and fell in love. I now own six collector cars with five of them being pre 1931. My 19 year old son has the bug even more than me. He owns a car from 1923 and his friends even love it. My 23 year old daughter drives that 1978 VW bus as her daily driver and she knows others her age who are similar. Do my son son and daughter belong to any clubs? Would they participate on a forum like this? No so they don’t show up on the radar and the perception is young people don’t like old cars. My son is also an instructor at a model t driving school at a large museum and the amount of younger people signing up for that and loving it is quite surprising. I know many other guys in their 40s that own pre war cars and enjoy the heck out of them but do not belong to any of the typical clubs either. Why is that? The biggest reason is that we all work and the local clubs like the Model A club loves to have their bi weekly breakfasts and lunches on weekdays. Things change and times are different but I know a lot of younger interest in old cars, you just have to know where to find it. My case is opposite of yours as my younger generation children got me into the hobby because of their interest.
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10 hours ago, Ozstatman said:
Saw this Cole at the Gilmore a year ago.
Yes that is my sons. This summer there was an exhibit of seven Coles at the Gilmore.
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11 hours ago, Va-67Skylark said:
Photo of another Cole at the Gilmore Collection my wife and I took 2-weeks ago on our visit. What an amazing collection!
I am glad you enjoyed it. That 1913 Cole is mine as well and is my favorite of our Coles. It looks even better in the sunlight!
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10 hours ago, Ozstatman said:
Kevin,
Is the one down in Australia the one I took the photo of in June 2014? If it is, I can point you in the direction of the guy who was used to get it transported to Australia. He would know who the owner was then.
Yes that is the one. Any help would be appreciated.
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Nice manual. This manual is for the first Auto with a 346.3 cubic inch 90 degree flathead V8 with detachable cylinder heads that was released on January 15th of 1915. Completely different than the Cadillac V8 released in October of 1914 that had a 90 degree solid cylinder heads configuration and was much smaller. It is a good read on one of the important V8's in automotive history.
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In order to keep my three Coles as well as the many other Coles owned and tracked by the Cole Motor Car Registry, I am interested in any and all Cole parts and literature 1909-1925. The full list of needed items is at the link below, including pictures and measurements will be added soon.
Please message me or send me an email at kfleck@outlook.com if you are have something Cole related and are interested in selling it.
http://colemotorcarregistry.com/cole-parts-wanted/
Thanks!
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4 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:
Kevin
Thanks for the deeper context on the relationship between Northway, Cole and Cadillac. I recall reading that Northway was engine builder for both. One assumes as Cadillac volume grew, patience with special specifications for the low-volume Cole engine would diminish. If rumors that Durant was pursuing Cole got back to GM, who had had enough of his shenanigans, it was just one more reason to end the business relationship.
I hope you will seriously consider writing a Cole history, to correct so much of the incorrect that's available. If not a book, perhaps an on-line site that you can add to and enlarge when further insights and solid information come to light.
Steve
Steve,
I will continue to document the history. Currently, the best place to get information is at the registry website www.colemotorcarregistry.com. I update that, have a blog with posts, and also we publish a periodic electronic newsletter. I post those to the site as well. I also make some videos here and there on youtube. Here is another Cole car walkthrough of a 1911 Cole Roadster.
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Good to see younger people getting publicity in the hobby!
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8 minutes ago, mobileparts said:
Sorry, but the younger crowd is NOT joining in....
I give applause when a young man is there with his father or grandfather -- because I think it is a great thing when a family WANTS to be together at an absolutely awesome event like HERSHEY -- the number one car show in the universe...
But sadly, partially due to a lot of bad parenting, the younger generation has absolutely no interest in this "hobby" and can't afford to get in.... Most of the young kids do not want or care or respect a 1928 Chevy or a 1931 Ford....
And they really don't care about a 1952 Buick or 1947 Ford...
It pains me to say this --- but our "hobby" is on borrowed time....
Point of interest -- I don't care if you invested $ 50,000 in putting a Model A together -- does anyone in their right mind think you would sell it for more than $ 10,000 to possibly $ 15,000.....
Do you think anyone under the age of 60 would fork over $ 900,000 for a
Deusenberg????
We are on borrowed time --- only thanks to all the foreigners -- Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Great Britain, Brazil, and on and on -- will this "hobby" carry on for another 10 years..... And that is for those of us who are still alive..... Reality.
You should check out the AACA Facebook page with the thread with over 60 replies from last night about Hershey alienating the younger crowd. There are many younger people on there commenting that they can’t get off of work to come to Hershey and then all of the swap vendors leave Friday morning or early afternoon. My 19 year old son was there this week buying parts, however other younger people that he knows with interest couldn’t come due to work.
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3 minutes ago, zeke01 said:
My take on the handicap carts is this: There seems to be a lot of handicapped people who don’t appear to be handicapped riding around in carts. A friend was going to use a cart so he brought his handicap card and insurance paperwork. I thought that each cart was to have a handicap card displayed on the cart. I can’t remember seeing a handicap card on any cart at Hershey. If the cart users were handicapped, they sure hid it well. So you see apparently healthy guys riding around in carts rushing by guys with artificial legs walking around. Zeke
You don’t display your handicapped card on the cart though that would be a better way. You have to go to the registration and they look at the handicapped placard and your license then put a colored strip bracelet on the cart. That way the security people can check the cart at the entrance to each area.
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This was my first year at Hershey with my son and from what I heard on the forums was that carts and vehicles were a problem and I didn't find it that way at all. It was actually a heck of a lot safer and more orderly than a city street with pedestrians and cars. There are a lot of aging attendees so you are going to see more mobility vehicles. One thing they could do is to make the passageways and lanes a bit wider. There is actually plenty of room to do this as there were plenty of gaps in the show field where people didn't show up or they don't have enough vendors to fill the spaces anymore.
If someone has a state handicapped placard then they can use a mobility device. There is not a screening process that needs to be done, as it is pretty straight forward from the state. They checked at the entrances to the vendor fields and the car corral for the handicap placard. I actually saw some of the patrolling AACA people that were a bit over the top and it bordered on ADA violations. I saw one guy who had a prosthetic leg on a mobility device with his handicapped placard taped to the front and an AACA volunteer in a golf cart yelled at him because he didn't have his scooter registered. He then made the statement if you don't get that thing registered then we are going to have to park you and you will be walking back. Not a good way to treat people and not very welcoming at all.
Sometimes I worry that people in this hobby want to keep things the way they always were and not wanting to adapt to the modern world. If we don't adapt with modern times and how things work in today's world, then we just chase people away and events like this continue to shrink. Another great example of this is 95% of vendors take cash only. I don't know many people under the age of 30 that actually carry any cash. I am in my 40's and don't carry cash and it was a pain in the ass to go get actual cash at the bank in preparation to attend Hershey. The other thing that was very absurd was that no vendor actually had a sign that said what aisle and space number they were at and the stickers on the pavement were all worn down by Wednesday. I wasted probably over 1 hour a day or more trying to find a booth based on the program book. For example I wanted to find a vendor who was selling door handles. It gives a code like C3H in the program but then there are no signs that mark the aisles or the vendor spaces. Yes you can try and use the big numbers on the light posts, but that gets you an approximation. This seems like such a simple thing to do and would make the experience so much simpler and effective.
Overall our first Hershey event was great and very enjoyable, though I see lots of ways this event will need to adapt if it wants to get the younger crowd joining in.
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19 minutes ago, Paul Dobbin said:
Great article Kevin, you and Ben should be proud if all you have uncovered for all us us to enjoy.
First exposure to the Cole was about 40 years ago when a friend (Bud Stanley, DDS) restored a 1914 Cole Touring Car for Millard Newman's
"Trans Am Tours". They were transcontinental tours for 1915 and older cars. Bud restored the big touring car in white with red leather upholstery.
It looked like the Great Leslie from the movie the Great Race. Bud an Gyneth took many of those tours before switching to a American Fiat. I've
heard that the Cole is still around and being enjoyed.
Thanks! I have never seen that car in person though I am familiar with it from the files. It is a great looking one! Here is a picture of it.
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6 hours ago, 8E45E said:
That would be nice to see, especially with all the information on Cole you have in your possession.
I have a few marque histories/founder biographies which are all interesting reads during winter:
https://www.amazon.ca/Made-Standard-Alexander-Petryshyn-2000-12-04/dp/B01FEOYGGU
Craig
Thank you for sharing, I will have to check those out!
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21 hours ago, 8E45E said:
Thanks for your brief history lesson on Cole.
In hindsight, with the Great Depression looming just four years later, he liquidated at almost the right time.
Would any of those 'archives' that were destroyed in the 1960's flood include all the build sheets for the Cole cars? Or were they hopefully saved?
Craig
Unfortunately all build sheets were destroyed.
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6 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:
kfle
Thank you for your in depth answers to my questions, it greatly appreciated that you're sharing your knowledge of this obscure marque. The body makers cited were some I surmised might have been sources. Willoughby histories have mentioned the company built series-custom bodies for Cole.
Not surprising that suppliers began to balk since larger, high volume runs were becoming the norm, low volume builders were just a nuisances for them, sadly enough.
Mr. Cole was prescient when it came to Billy Gurant, look what he did to Locomobile...
I hope you will consider writing an updated Cole history since you likely have the greatest amount of knowledge on them. Others beside myself would welcome such a history.
Steve
Steve,
The real killer for Cole was Northway. Northway made engines for both Cole and Cadillac going back to 1910, though typically the engines were completely different. For example Cadillac released their V8 in October of 1914 and it was a 60 degree solid head design with 270 or so cubic inches. Cole released their V8 in January of 1915 and it was the first 90 degree flathead V8's with detachable cylinder heads and was a larger 346 cubic inches. Both engines were made by Northway, though Cole's Chief Engineer spent 6 months at Northway in Detroit during 1914 working on Cole's specific design. Cadillac ended up adopting Coles V8 design in 17/18 due to it running much better and Cole standardized on the v8 for all engines in 1916 going forward. Northway stopped letting Cole change engine designs in 1922/23 due to competitive issues and Durant.
On the topic of an updated history, the head of the Gilmore Car Museum research library and myself were just talking a week ago about authoring a book. He has also been talking to the Society of Automotive Historians about publishing it. We have an interesting angle and just may do it. The Gilmore library had over 70,000 Cole documents and information donated to them a year ago by an avid collector and historian who created the original registry and ran a Cole club for three decades. A great deal of history sites and books have wrong info on Cole. For example if you go to the Cole Motor Car Company page on Wikipedia, it states that JJ Cole tried to build a car with his son in 1903 as a first attempt and that never happened! The thing is that his son was 4 years old in 1903 🙂 When I have some time i will update Wikipedia and put some cited information on the site. Time to do the work is the limiting factor now, but we will see what happens.
Here is a great Cole family photo of JJ Cole pulling his only son, JJ Cole Jr. on a sled in a 1910 Cole 30 Flyer.
Kevin
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20 hours ago, garnetkid said:
I watched the video of the blue Cole and was surprised to see the exterior door handles look the same as on my 1925 McLaughlin Buick, haven't seen them before on any other car. Old Sam must have got a buy on them from the same supplier as Cole!! Couldn't figure out how to crop and enlarge the handle on the screen shot Cole. Leon
Thank you for sharing this. There are several Coles that used these, though it was not consistent for all body styles during a given model or Series. I wonder who the supplier was for the handles.
Gilmore Car Museum - Congress of Motor Cars (Rescheduled to Oct 2-3)
in AACA - Shows and Tours
Posted
Excellent event and my son and I will be attending again this year for the tour and the weekend show. It is not just a show either as you can drive around the campus, participate in car games, and see lots of demos. My son loved driving the 1923 Cole giving people rides all day on the Saturday. I highly recommend attending this weekend event!