Bullfrog_eng
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Posts posted by Bullfrog_eng
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My 29 DA has lots (but not all) of bolts with this pattern. I too recon they look cool and try to keep as many as possible.
John.
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Like the others, I have been most impressed and inspired by this thread. Fantastic work and thanks for sharing. But I was particularly interested in the contrast between our weather conditions. I am preparing my DA doors for painting and it was 43 deg C (that's 109 deg F I think) when I came in from the shed for lunch! I won't be going back to the shed for a while!!
John
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G’day everyone.
I am in the throes of rebuilding my DA Bonnet Catches (is this what is referred to in the parts list as "Hood Locks"?). I have 12 of them that I have collected over the years and will be able to make one good set out of them, but I need confirmation on the little curved plated that is sandwiched between the base of the latch and the chassis. I have 4 of these and believe that they would be only used on the front two catches, as I can’t see how they would perform satisfactorily on the rear two. Please see the pics below. Is this what is referred to in the parts list as "Hood lock stop", if so it says I need all four and that does not seem right to me.
Hope someone can put me on the correct path.
Many thanks,
John
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Jason,
as far as I know, my Budd bodied sedan would have been fully imported. In desperation I did think of the number being stamped on the LHS, as it is a RHD car. Still no luck though. If as you sugested, if it was stamped on the TOP of the chassis rails, mine would have too much rust pitting and would be obliterated. To my mind, that is the only possability as I can't find it anywhere else.
John
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OK, that’s it. I will not look for my chassis number ever again. You can shoot my dog, let down my tyres (tires). But please don’t make me look for the chassis number again. Its just a plot by these nasty Americans to drive is Aussies mad. The Chassis number really does not exist!!!
Seriously, thanks all for the help, but I still can find no chassis number on either my Budd or Richards DA chassis.
Regards,
John
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Thanks Fellas.
Will go and have another look!
John
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Ron, I have two chassis that had Budd bodies and one Richards. I can find no chassis number on any of them. The owners manual states "Stamped on the name plate on upper toe board and also on right side of frame, back of the front spring rear bracket". I have the number on the plate on the toe board, which is on the left hand side of the toe board, for the Budd bodied sedan only, the other two are wrecks only so they are like yours, toe boards long gone. The plate on mine is quite rusty, but has the serial number clearly stamped. There is nothing eles on this plate at all, although there may have been before the rust obliterated it. I have searched for a picture on this forum, but not found it. Probably just didn't search for the right thing!
John
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Dodgy6,
I have chassis from both Richards and Budd bodied cars and can find no chassis number on either. I have looked as described in the owners manual but cannot find anything. If anyone has any information on EXACTLY where to look, I would love to have another go.
Regards to all,
John
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Sounds fair. I guess if you are going to advertise something, it makes sense to show the more expensive model.
Regards,
John
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Regarding the advertisment from "The Australian Woman's Mirror", by Clare30, it is very interesting to note that it depicts a Budd body, not Richards. Why is this so? Maybe they just copied a photo from USA.
Regarding Graham's comments on DA chassis numbers, I have previously checked 3 of mine and also yet to find a number (the number was provided on a footwell plate though). Would also be interested if enyone could show EXACTLY where it should be.
Regards,
John
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Ok, will attempt to answer some of Jason’s questions. I’m learning lots of stuff here too!
I believe a Gig or Sulky is a light single horse drawn cart, with a single seat to take normally driver and passenger.
Australia originally had six self governing British colonies and individuals used British patent processes. The Colony of South Australia was the first to enact its own patent act in 1848 and the other Australian states (as we would now know them) followed shortly after. The constitution of Australia was enacted in 1901, forming the Commonwealth of Australia (ie. our National Government) and the State patents were transferred to the Commonwealth in 1904.
To have something patented you have to have invented something new or innovative and I assume that, because two wheeled horse drawn carts had been around for ages, Toby’s was thought to be an improvement, not "new". I do not know if he even tried to patent it, but assume not.
I have not previously heard of T J Hobbs so don’t know if he had any "claim to fame".
I have heard of the USA built Dixie Flyer, not sure if this is the "Dixie" referred to, but believe it was not Australian built, Swift cars and cyclecars were British made, Pope were USA, Rudge were British, don’t know about Mascot. There was very little in the way of cars being built in Australia at that time and certainly those that were, largely experimental. Have an article on this somewhere, will see if I can find it.
"Taking up the agencies", yes that would mean having the dealership rights and usually exclusive rights.
I believe what Max Gregory is saying is that due to the Government policy of promoting local industry, import tariffs were imposed to encourage as much as possible of a motor vehicle be made in Australia. This usually meant that chassis were imported (often by a "subsidiary" of the motor vehicle manufacturer or the manufacturer itself) and a local (Australian) built body fitted, thus eliminating import duty on the body and making the total vehicle price less that a fully imported one. This does not imply that Australian built bodies were inferior. Obviously quality varied between body building companies and some were better than others, but from what I have seen I would rate Richards and Holden bodies equal to their equivalent imported mass produced bodies, with the exception of the fact that they were timber framed, and for that reason only, in my opinion the imported Budd body was superior. Finish and construction was fine and as this Government policy was seen to be working, business increased and called for expansion. The factory was situated at I believe three sites on and near Hindmarsh Square. This would now be considered the Adelaide Central Business District. The construction of the factory at Keswick, then probably considered an outer suburb, would now be considered an inner city suburb and is probably about 4 miles from the Hindmarsh Square site.
You are quite correct, there were a large number of makes to choose from, but in reality, many of them in small numbers, and again many not really suited to Australian conditions. USA sourced cars were the most successful for Australian conditions, but government imposed import restrictions meant that Canadian and British (part of the British Empire) were easier to come by. At the end of the day, the majority were Ford/Dodge/Chev.
I think what Max is getting at is that the Government imposed restrictions on the importation of motor bodies during and after the First World War. This prompted Bert Cheney to lobby for more local body building capacity and as Richards was already in significant production, this prompted the expansion of Holdens. This is ironic in that Cheney was a Dodge agent promoting a policy that would establish (eventually) Holdens (General Motors Holden) as the main opposition.
Again, you are correct in that major components such as engine/gearbox/differentials were usually sourced overseas. While there was certainly the ability to build these things locally, the reality was again that the volumes required by these small companies was insufficient to make it profitable to do so. Easier and cheaper to buy 20 or 30 overseas. Again you must realise that the motor industry here was minute compared with USA. Something like Cord using Lycoming engines.
I believe Richards used the "King of the Road" title for his bodies regardless of what make they were fitted to. Not sure if he registered the name, but as far as I know, it was not used by anyone else.
As far as I know, Richards was a manufacturer and not a retailer at this time, although he would have been a retailer early on.
May’s Motor Works were the manufacturers of the Besst. They imported the Lycoming engines, Muncie gearboxes, etc and had Richards build the body. I believe they assembled the car. I also believe they sold the car themselves in South Australia, although I don’t know how they sold their cars interstate, through their own agencies or someone else.
Richards supplied 100 bodies to Rugby per week which was the total they (Rugby) required per week for their Australia operations. Had nothing to do with Government, it was the contract with Rugby.
Assemblers in other States I believe means that the bodies were built in South Australia, but other companies would assemble the cars. Similar thing to May’s Motor Works, Richards would build the body then ship it off to May’s to be installed on the Chassis, etc.
Well, that will do for now. Hope I have answered your questions and better still, hope I have answered them correctly!!
Will have another look at all this when I am less tired and if I have missed anything, will have another go.
Regards,
John
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Thanks to all who have replied. Your photos and comments have helped a lot. Thanks to the lower section that Jason has supplied, I am confident that I can build the top section to suit by referencing this info.
Again, thanks all for the help.
John
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Sorry for the delay, I have not been able to access the internet for some time now, but looks like its working again. Thanks for your help and questions, Jason. My rusty old hood loop is definately made in someone's back yard out of scrap steel. My photo os obviously not good enough to show how rough it really is. Regarding your other questions, I have provided some further information, but thought it more appropriate to do so in the "Australian Dodges (History) thread. Will add a bit more to your own email address and explain there.
Regards,
John
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In my previous thread on "hood loops", Jason posed a number of questions. It is probably now more appropriate that I contribute what I can in this thread. My apologies for not doing so sooner, but my internet access has been faulty for some days now. I am currently restoring a Budd bodied DA sedan, have the remains of another Budd Sedan and had a Richards bodied tourer that I dismantled for parts for my restoration.
I am not sure if Budd bodied Dodges were imported as a complete car, or CKD (completely knocked down). I had always believed they were imported complete and still think this is likely, but having seen photos of "packs" of Budd body sections in crates sent "overseas", I am not so sure. It would appear that the bodies were packed in lots of six, that is six left sides in a crate, six right sides in another, etc, etc. I still however feel this is unlikely for Australia, as I do not know who would have assembled them and feel it is unlikely that it would have been Richards or Holden, who of course were in the business of making their own bodies for a range of vehicles. The imported bodies would also have attracted import duty, even if unassembled.
Dodge Brothers signed a major contract in 1922 with Richards to produce a Dodge car body. I think we could therefore assume that Dodge, and later Chrysler, were therefore happy to stand behind the product for any warranty claims as they were sold through the Dodge dealership network. It is interesting to note that in 1923, 115 bodies per week were being built, still very low volume compared to USA. A tariff scheme was in place to make it more attractive to make as much of a car in Australia. At this time, Richards were also making bodies for Bianchi, Citroen, Fiat, Gray, Maxwell, Morris, Oakland and Overland cars.
Regarding the DA Dodges, from my observations, I believe that the chassis, complete with all mechanicals including radiator, but without bonnet (hood), were imported. I am not sure of the mudgards (fenders), if not imported, they were a very good copy. From a distance, the Budd and Richards bodies look very similar and most that are not intimately aware of the differences may not pick any. But the main difference is that the body is timber framed. This was necessitated by the very low numbers produced as well as the limitations of presses. The bodies are mounted very differently. The Budd body mounting bolts go horizontally through the side of the chassis, the Richards sits on top of the chassis (see photo)
, with a bit of half round moulding to cover the holes that Budd would have used. Another difference is that the little tabs, riveted to the chassis for a Budd, to hold the floor boards, are not required for a Richards, so are missing. I am not sure if they were not riveted on at the Dodge factory, or were removed in Australia, but the rivet holes are certainly there. My original chassis was badly rusted in this area, so I used the chassis from the Richards tourer. I re-riveted these tabs (from the Budd chassis) back on using the existing holes.
The bonnet (hood) sides are different (see photo)
. They have a rectangular raised section around the louvres, which are all level across the top, whereas Budd had flat sides and the top of the louvres are not level but curved. I have seen a Richards bonnet on a Budd car, but I am not sure what modification is required, if any.
The Richards body has no air vents on the side of the cowl, but has one in the centre of the top of the cowl, in front of the windscreen.
It would appear that Richards had no problems supplying whatever they were contracted to do, but I believe that they were prudent in what contracts they accepted. There is an extensive article in "Restored Cars Australia" issue 202, Sept-Oct 2010, by the noted motoring historian Max Gregory, on the history of T.J. Richards. In it he points out that they were much less affected by the depression than Holdens, because they concentrated on "standardised" car bodies, whereas Holdens accepted all work offered. From my observations, I have never seen a Holden Bodied DA. Richards made sedans, tourers and I think roadsters. However, a mate has two DC Dodges. The sedan is a Richards and there were a number of DC/DD sedans, but his tourer is a Holden body. There were very few tourers in DC/DD, so this seems to confirm that Holdens were prepared to accept making perhaps only a few DC Tourers that Richards thought too small a run.
There were, about this time, five major companies supplying "standardised" bodies in Australia, Richards and Holdens In Adelaide, Ford in Geelong, The Melbourne Motor Body Works in Melbourne and Smith and Waddington in Sydney.
Chrysler Dodge Distributors (Australia) Pty. Ltd was formed by a number of state franchise holders and purchased shares in Richards in 1936 and acquired a controlling interest in 1937. Richards Industries became Chrysler Dodge De Soto Distributors Ltd in 1947, became Chrysler Australia Ltd in 1951 and Mitsubishi Motors Australia Ltd in 1980. Mitsbishi ceased making cars in Australia in 2008.
Hope this helps a bit.
John
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Jason, thanks for your help and your questions. Will try to answer as best I can, but may take a bit of time to do so, and will try and get some photos. Will reply in a day or so.
John
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Have not uploaded pictures before, so will have a go.
The first is "what I have got". I think it is obvious why I do not intend to use this . It is a marvelous piece of Australian engineering that includes an oil hole, although I think that may just have already been in the piece of steel used!!
The second is the cast version that was sent to me as an examle of what is fitted to a Richards body. With modification, I may be able to use one of these, but I am concerned that I would have to thin the base down too much and it may brake. I should also point out that the Richards hood is also different, particularly the side panels.
John
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Thanks Jason and Terry. The photos and comments from both of you have been exactly what I was looking for. This is signficantly different to the Richards body equivalent.
Your help much appreciated.
John
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G'day All.
I am trying to fit the hood (or bonnet depending on which country your from!) to my DA that I dismantled many, many years ago. It appears that the mounting is a very rough home made one that definately won't clean up well enough. I am talking about the mounting that locates the centre rod of the hood (bonnet) at the cowl end for a Budd body. From the parts catalogue it appears that it MAY be similar to the radiator end, that is two pieces, called a Hood Rod Loop, upper and lower. I have seen one off a Richards body that is single piece and cast (brass I think). Could anyone please comment, a picture would be even better. I need to work out if I need one to fit a Budd body or if a Richards one will do (maybe modified). The bolt holes in the body seem unusually large. Is this a "modification", or did they use stepped washers or something?
Many thanks,
John
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Thought I may as well ad my experience with the use of molasses in rust removal. Let me say that there is no right or wrong method with rust removal. I use molasses, sand blasting and electrolyte baths and it all depends on the situation as to which is the "best". By that I mean your own circumstances, as well as what you are trying to clean.
Some years ago, myself and three other blokes had a heap of stuff we wanted to clean, so used a very large bath. Probably 3 feet wide, 3 feet six inches high, about 12 feet long, using 1part molasses to 10 parts water. We were cleaning complete chassis, mud guards (fenders), doors, whatever. The cost to fill it was shared, and I don’t really remember the actual cost, but shared it was not much really.
We would stack the tank with as much as we could get in it, then let it soak for a week. It helps with a large tank, even one much smaller than this, to have a pump to circulate the molasses mix occasionally, say for half an hour, once or twice a day, it makes it work better. I used an old pump from a washing machine. Then every Saturday morning, we would get everything out of the tank and lay it on the lawn and clean it with a good pressure cleaner. The speed that the molasses works depends on temperature, thickness of rust, paint and age of molasses. It will deteriorate with use and although it smells great to start off with, it will eventually start to smell quite bad, although still work OK. At this stage it pays to have the tank not too close to wives, neighbours, etc. Eventually the process will slow down and if you wish to continue, a new batch will be required, but depending on use that may be a year or so down the track.
After cleaning all our parts with the water blaster, anything not properly cleaned would go into the bath for another week. What we were satisfied with we would paint with diluted Phosphoric Acid, the stuff that crash repairers use to treat bare panels before painting, but not quite as diluted as they would use, because most of the parts were not being used straight away. The acid has two purposes. When pressure cleaned, the metal is super clean and will start to rust before your eyes, the acid will remove this rust, again before your eyes. The second is that it will protect the metal from rusting for some time, This depends on your climate and how/where it is stored, but in our dry climate, I still have some of these panels in perfect condition after 15 years in the shed. Of course, if the cleaned parts are mechanical, not panels, it may be more appropriate to coat with something else.
Jason, you are quite correct in your comments that if you try to do only half a panel, then the other half a week or so later, the cleaned part will start rusting again immediately. You may be able to get away with it though, by treating it with Phosphoric, but its best not to. I bought an old household heating oil tank from a scrap metal dealer for $5 that holds about 200 litres and was able to do two DA doors at a time. The tank is steel, and will rust badly at the "waterline", and may not last that long, but cheap. Use whatever you can get, it does not have to be plastic. Remember, if you are doing doors, the molasses will clean the inside as well, so you will need to pressure clean then protect the insides too. Ultimately spray in some rust protective paint that will creep into all the folds, joins, etc. Not sure what you use in USA, but I have used Fish Oil or a product called Extroll Rust Conqueror here in Australia.
Good luck, if you are not in a hurry, it works well.
Regards,
John
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I agree that it should not take much pressure to pop it out (with any luck!!). I would just stuck the nozzle of a air dusting gun, or some similar device, into the tank with some rag wrapped around it to seal it. Just hold it in by hand, don't modify the cap. I think you will get quite enough pressure in the tank that way and you can just release your hand and the rag will blow out if things start to look a bit ugly. Assuming there is a pressure regulator on the air compressor, set it fairly low to start off with (10 PSI??) and see what hapens.
I use this method to test 4X4 fuel tanks for leaks when I build them, I put a bit of Diesel in as well and the air blows it everywhere and soon shows up a leak.
Good luck,
John
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There is one on Australian ebay listed as "Steering Wheel Spinner ". I live in a small country town and never thought they would be much use to me because most of my driving did not require a lot of wheel turning! Cab drivers seemed to have them in the cities as well as some of the lads for the previous mentioned reasons, but I dont recall anyone calling them anything. Maybe in areas where they were more comon they may have had an Australian equivalent to "Suicide Knob" or whatever, but I had not heard it. Thanks for the american translations.
John
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Thanks Keiser.
Thought it may be, but never heard then called that (around here). Come to think of it, dont remember them called anything special at all. Assumed that may be what it was. Remember them well from the days before bucket seats prevented you from getting that close to female pasengers (Just!!)
John
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Pardon the ignorance of a poor old bloke from down under, but what the hell is a "Suicide Knob"? (Ebay Item 150578494765). Is that a knob you attach to the steering wheel or something?
Regards,
John
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I pretty much agree with all the comments on this issue. Very early in my driving career I learned two very valuable things. The first was that I could not drive nearly as well as I thought I could. The second was the value of seat belts. As you may have guessed, both these profound realisations stemmed from the same incident, which left me quite OK but my car very sad.!
But there is always a "but".
I cannot speak of the requirements of other states of Australia, let alone other countries, but to stimulate another aspect of the seatbelt issue, this is the South Australian situation. To get your car on the road, it must be "registered" (some would say "licensed"). There are actually two components of this. Basically the "registration" part ensures that the vehicle complies with the relevant laws and regulations. If it came from the manufacturer with seatbelts, it must still have them, otherwise it is not mandatory to fit them, but if you want to you can. The problem arrises from the second component of our "registration" system, that is a "third party" insurance component. If your car came from the manufacturer with seatbelts, no problem, if they were a manufacturer’s option, no problem (you can fit them). If not, the insurance company requires an automotive engineer’s report to ensure the mounting points are adequate, or your policy may be invalid. As you might have guessed, this is very, very expensive.
I am not suggesting that most of us could not adequately fit seat belts. Just be aware of your relevant local rules/requirements. Personally, with our local requirements, I would not fit seatbelts if not originally fitted to the car, despite my view that they save lives.
Regards,
John
The Ressurection of Daphne - a 1932 DL
in Dodge & Dodge Brothers
Posted
Getting back to the ball on the steering arm, some time ago I had one repaired for the DA. The engineering company made a hardened steel ball then turned down the arm so that the ball slid over the taper they had turned, then SILVER SOLDERED it onto the arm. Have not had the car on the road yet (can't rush these things!!!) so cannot vouch for reliability, but they had apparently done a lot that way. I believe they used silver solder so that it was not necessary to get the arm and particularly the hardened ball as hot as would be required for welding or brazing.
John