Stude Light
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Posts posted by Stude Light
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3 hours ago, alsfarms said:
Did all of GM follow that protocol or was each GM make on its own time schedule when it came to switching over to Chrome plating?
Al
Oldsmobile started using chrome plating in 1926, so I would say it depended on the brand.
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Tom VanMeeteren will have one. "Old buicks 2" on this forum tsvanmeet@gmail.com or 402-359-5762
Not cheap.
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Series 17 SF export car built out of Walkerville, Ontario. The export cars were often a mix of parts, some of which came from previous models. They used whatever was on hand to build up a car.
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I received a shipment from Egge. New pistons are 0.030" oversize and were machined from billet aluminum. My rods are set up with a really odd size pin which is 23/32". The other Light Six engines I've disassembled were 1921/1922 cars and had an 11/16" pin. Not sure if that was a later change or what but I do know that piston and rod part numbers had changed around the time my car was built.
The 11/16" pins I have seen in the earlier engines had a slot that a washer in the small end of the rod went into, to hold the pin in place along with clamp load.
On my engine, the washers were ground flush and just used the clamp load around the pin to hold it in place. Since my rods were already set up for 23/32" pins I am just replacing with that size and using the clamp load as before but I'll also be applying Loctite retaining compound for some added retention.
Originally, the pistons used 3/16" rings for all 3 or 4 rings (depending on year). As technology evolved, thinner rings designs were used to reduce friction: 3/16" => 3/32" => 5/64" => 1/16" => 1.5mm => 0.043" => 1.0mm => 0.8mm. I opted to use 3/32" compression rings and a 3/16" oil control ring which will greatly reduce the friction I had with the old 4 x 3/16" ring design.
I also had new valves made. You can see the old vs new below.
Note that the old ones had really no margin below the sealing surface. This leads to poor sealing and edge overheating which causes damage and pre-ignition.
I also had my camshaft reground. It had grooves worn in the lobes from the cam follower rollers. They do not weld up the lobes but regrind the entire lobe to regain lift and opening/closing profiles. The entire lobe is smaller around so you do need to make up for that by having the ability to adjust overall valve train geometry by using the lash adjustment set at the heel of the lobe, which all these old engines can easily do.
They did a nice job and it isn't overly expensive (something like $100 or $120). There are a number of shops offering this work. I used Egge since they were making my pistons and had to box stuff up to ship anyway. Seems like shipping costs can become like 50% of the cost to get a part nowadays.
I loaded all this stuff up, along with the cylinder head to get surfaced, and drove it to Hart's Machine in Cecil, OH so I'll be in waiting mode for a bit. The only other thing I can work on while waiting is to clean up some parts and to make 26 new studs.
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Got some time to do a little machining this weekend. We started on the water outlet repair first. Indicated off the surfaces around the bolt holes first to get the head square, then started cutting.
It came out quite nice and will make a good seal.
Next, we used the same end mill and cut down all those inserts to within about 0.015" proud of the head surface.
I wanted to get them cut down close to the finished surface so we could lay the gasket flat on the head and start marking the hole centers. Once we got those all marked we used various size endmills to bore the holes in the new inserts to the correct size and location.
Recall that some of the inserts were installed off-center of the hole to repair the eroded areas which were not always concentric with the original hole.
This is how the head looks once we got done today. There are a few dabs of JB Weld just to fill in a few occlusions and screwdriver dents. The entire head is going to get milled next so all the surfaces will be flat and will seal with the new head gasket.
I am quite happy with the results so far.
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I started reassembling the transmission. First you install the reverse idler gear set which in this transmission is two gears “keyed” together.
Then the shaft goes in to support those gears. I added a little sealant (Permatex The Right Stuff in this case) to the shaft where it presses into the case then install the cotter pin. 
Next goes in the countershaft assembly which has to be manipulated a bit to fish it through the top of the case.
I again applied a little sealant to the shaft interface to avoid any leakage. First to the bore where the shaft will come through and to the opposite end of the shaft. This keeps the sealant out of the gearbox.
Drive the shaft in and wipe up the extra sealant that was pushed out. The Welch plug you see on the right covers an access hole that allows you to drive out the shaft supporting the reverse idler gears.
Add the other cotter pin.
Now for the output shaft assembly. You must install the first/reverse sliding gear and second/third sliding gear and fish the output shaft splines through those gears before driving the bearing into the case.
I used a dead blow hammer and drove the bearing flush with the case, then installed the speedometer drive gear, rear housing gasket (coated with Permatex High Tack), and the rear bearing housing. The rear housing has a boss that pushes the bearing farther into the case. To avoid breaking this cast iron housing, I worked around the bolt pattern turning each bolt about a quarter turn until the housing was flush.
Now the input shaft. First install the new thrust washer which has a bevel on the ID of the side that interfaces with the output shaft. It’s is important to check that orientation. I added some sticky engine assembly lube on the interface between the input and out put shafts and on the front and rear bearings. I again used a dead blow to set the bearing flush. Then installed the front bearing cover gasket and cover itself. This has the same feature that insets the bearing into the case and I used the same bolt tightening technique. I also added the output flange.
Positioning the sliding gears in neutral, holding the output shaft stationary and rotating the input shaft, you can feel some resistance which means there is a little preload on that new thrust washer. If I repeat this process while pulling outward on each shaft the resistance between shafts is gone which means that there is just a very slight load on that washer induced by the oil film on those bearings.
My original intent was to have some clearance (free play) on this thrust washer but I actually like this setup better. Load is almost nil and as the case warms up it will expand and create a couple of thousandths clearance I was looking for. There is only relative movement between the two shafts in first gear, second gear and in neutral with the clutch engaged.
I’ll pour some gear oil in and install the top cover/shift forks next.
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Machined down the EDT-150 to give a tolerance fit for the ID.
Made the width 0.011 based on the end play I measured from above. Made a spare washer too. Everything fits very nicely.
While I had the trans apart, I was looking at the rear output housing since it has the occasional oil drop back there. The output shaft has a significant clearance to to the housing and there is no seal. The stationary housing has a spiral groove that is supposed to push oil back in the trans?? Really?! Maybe if it was rotating and there was a tighter tolerance between parts.
I added a small drain back slot in the bottom grove (pictured above) since the terminus of the grove is at the top of the housing. I wanted to add a slinger but there is just no room so I just cut a small slot on the output shaft but I doubt it is tall enough to do anything but it was worth a try. If it slings at all it will end up in the slot I added the drain back slot to.
I made some new gaskets, so with the new washer I can reassemble the transmission and reinstall it.
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Oh yeah....the water outlet where the thermostat housing attaches is also a bad spot (brass to aluminum). I did not get a very good before photo. Ignore the machining chips in the inlet and look at the erosion.
Last time I used JB Weld in this area - got soft over time. I decided to try out Marine Tex this time. I've used it before with excellent results.
This is not really a critical area as its easy to access and easy to see a leak. There is enough aluminum for the gasket to seal but I would rather have more material so....
It sets rock hard. When we mill the water port inserts down this coming weekend, we'll hit this interface too.
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On 1/28/2024 at 4:11 PM, Mike "Hubbie" Stearns said:
After thinking about it, I have a couple of suggestions. First is when you reinstall the studs, I would use a thread sealer at the block. And second I would coat the studs with antiseize. It will keep the corrosion from happening. Mike
I am planning on Permatex #2 for the studs back into the block and also using Permatex #2 to seal the top of the stud to the head so water can’t get down into the stud area. I’ll keep that seal to less than 1/4” down the stud so it can be easily removed when the head has to come off in the future (hopefully that is the next owner’s problem).
I’m not convinced that coating the studs with antiseize will help if water gets in that interface. If you totally packed the cavity between the bore and the stud, then yes, but just coating the stud, probably not. Painting it would probably be more effective which is probably what I’ll do.
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Let me know if you want a copy of an engine rebuilding document I assembled for the 1936-48 Cadillac flathead. While you may not be planning a rebuild, it may give you some insights into the internals of the engine. If so, just PM me with an email address and I’ll forward it (Word document).
Scott
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I put the head in the ultrasonic tank and got it nice and clean.
If you zoom in you will see a lot of erosion around the water ports. When I originally installed this head, I used JB Weld to fill those in to get a seal on the copper/asbestos head gasket. After 8 years and then the ultrasonic tank, the JB Weld softened enough to be able to get it all out.
There are a few particularly bad ones and a couple close to the combustion chamber seal. I decided to do the job correctly this time around. If you are thinking welding....absolutely not! This aluminum is really dirty so difficult to weld and it is very prone to cracking when welding, even when you heat soak/cool it properly. I decided on installing aluminum insert plugs, then milling flush. The first step was to contact one my friends, Mike, who has a really nice Cincinnati mill he restored. We then bored the eroded holes oversize to accept the aluminum plugs. Then for each hole we carefully measured the hole and machined some aluminum stock down to be a very slight press fit (like 0.0005" - 0.001"), depending on diameter.
The next step was to heat the head up to about 250 degrees F. I used my grill as it wouldn't quite fit in our oven not to mention that the use of the oven would have been vetoed by my wife.
With the head heating in the grill, I had all the inserts in the deep freeze at -10 deg F. This allowed most of the inserts to be gently tapped in. I made sure to liberally apply Loctite retaining compound to each one before inserting.
With all the inserts installed, the next step is to use the mill and get them close to flush and we will use the head gasket as a template to drill all the holes to the center of the gasket port. Note - some of the inserts were installed off center to bias the hole to the eroded side of the port so we will be using the gasket to create new centers.
Once done I'll have the head milled flat.
Okay, I'm caught up to real time now so the posts will not be quite as often.
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Looking quite nice, Eric. You are getting close to having a rolling chassis.
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4 hours ago, r1lark said:
I bet beating on that head to get it off was scary...........glad to hear there was no damage.
Yes, it was rather stressful but more stress was coming.....
With the engine apart, I did some measuring and found that the bores were a bit more worn than anticipated - like almost 0.015" piston to cylinder diametrical clearance. With the great work they did on my Oldsmobile engine, I decided on Harts Machine in Cecil, OH to do the machine work. So here is the block with the head off.
I figured you just turn the block over, use the flat bottom of the block to set up on and bore the cylinders from that end. After some discussion I was told I needed to pull all the studs. Noooooo!!!
Other than 2 that had been replaced with threaded rod at some time in its history, those studs have been in that block for 100 years and, to make matters worse, they all terminate into the water jacket. I didn't sleep well after hearing that. So, with the stress of trying not to break the head getting it off forgotten about, I now was faced with 26 more stressful events. I had to crack open the bottle of Highland Park 14 year old scotch I picked up in Scotland this past summer 🤪.
Step 1: Soak with Kroil for a few of days. You can see that in the photo above.
Step 2: Heat the stud at the base as close to the block as you can get it. Get it red.
Step 3: Let stud cool but while still hot add more Kroil.
Step 4: Double nut the top of the stud and tighten the nuts as much as you can without stripping them. I also aligned the flats so either a 6 point or 12 point socket would go over both nuts.
Step 5: Lock a set of Vice-Grips onto the base of the stud using all the strength you have.
Step 6: Simultaneously use an impact gun while smacking the Vice-Grips with a small sledge hammer.
Last Step: Hope and pray for a good result.
I thought I would break them all but was astonished that I got all 26 out with no failures and no pulling of threads.
That was a tiring and stressful day.
The idea for this process is you want to break the brittle bond of iron oxide (rust) between the stud and the block. While heating the block red hot to expand the hole and putting a heat sink (like Vice-Grips) on the stud would do the job more efficiently, the risk of damaging the block is very high. This method is low risk for the block and the temperature extremes causes the stud to expand in the threads just enough to break some of that bond. The impact of the air gun and sledge do the rest.
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The aluminum cylinder head on this engine can be a bear so I thought I would work on it while still in the car for a stable platform. This head is held on with 26 steel studs and the galvanic corrosion between the two dissimilar metals generally makes the removal close to impossible. I started with many screwdrivers as this worked when I first got the car.
You laugh but gentle tapping along multiple points avoids really messing up the aluminum. I started with some penetrating oil and smacking each stud with a hammer to try to break any rust bonds. No go! So, I fished some rope down into one cylinder at a time and would spin up the hand crank to try popping the head off with the piston coming up to compress the rope into the head. Nope. So I gave up.
I removed the hood, radiator, front splash pan, headlight bar, unhooked the transmission and anything else attached and gently removed the engine. No scratches so far.
Since this engine does not bolt to the transmission, there is no flange in the back to support it on an engine stand. I had saved the wooden stand I made so many years ago and grabbed it from out back, added casters, ran a few more screws in and it still works.
My biggest dilemma was getting that head off. After years of driving (rain or shine) and washing the car, water had gotten down in the studs from the top and that head was stuck on those studs. After a week of penetrating oil, I removed the pistons and crankshaft and used a length of wood (3"x2") down the cylinder bores and proceeded to beat the head off the studs. I moved cylinder to cylinder as it gradually started to move. After at least an hour, it finally came off.
I figured it would crack in half but a good cleaning and inspection reveled no issues. The real test is when it goes back on the engine.
Looking at the oil pan, inside the timing chain cover and under the lifter cover, it looks pretty clean inside but I would expect that using modern ashless dispersant oils and only around 3000 miles of driving.
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Step one....drain fluids and pull all the accessories out of the way.
Note - I having been running only water with NoRosion in this engine the last 8 years (cast iron block, aluminum head, brass thermostat housing, copper radiator). It looks pretty nice inside the block still.
And this is the 4 year old fluid I drained from it. Looks like the day I put it in.
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Well, like I didn't have enough projects going on (currently working on the trans from the 1921 Olds and am doing an engine rebuild and chassis system upgrade on the 1962 F85), I decided to rebuild the engine in my 1923 Studebaker Light Six. I'll just focus on any of the more interesting aspects of this project though.
First a little history....I bought the car back in 2010. I don't think I ever told the story on this forum so, I'll do the Readers Digest version. I was teaching a client (Pierre) how to fly helicopters, we became friends, he invited my boys and I over to his lake house for some tubing on the lake and showed me this old car that was in the garage across the street that came with the house when he bought it 15 years earlier.
Fast forward 6 months.... Pierre decided to sell his lake house and I inquired about the car. He told me to make an offer and I bought it. It turns out that the guy Pierre originally bought the house from also got the car with the house, so I know it had sat there at least 35 years. I brought it home and out in the sunlight.
It needed a little work. After 5 years of a nut and bolt restoration....
It was finally done.
3000 miles and a number of awards later, I decide to rebuild the engine. Why??
When I was restoring the car I had two kids in private school and a mortgage to pay and I had to cut somewhere so new piston/bores were the choice. The crank and all the bearings were nice, so a little bearing shimming, new timing chain and piston work and I was able to have a decent working engine. I cut the piston ring grooves and used new rings and added ring spacers to get the clearances back to acceptable levels.
The bores were pretty loose with some taper and I knew one day in the future I would need to address that.
It has been about 8 years since I completed the restoration and after more recently hearing about two Light Six owners having their original 100 year old cast iron pistons fail, taking out the block and half the accessories, I decided it was time. I love driving the car and don't want to be having this nagging feeling in the back of my head.
The car is near pristine, so I'm having to be very careful trying not to scratch and chip paint.
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David,
I would join the 1961-1963 Oldsmobile F-85/Cutlass/Jetfire Facebook Group and post there. I had a few replies on my posting looking for a Roto 5 and one of them was in Utah from a Mike Klein. The others were in Michigan and Virginia. I think I posted in November so kit's down the page a ways.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/335089121268729
Scott
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1 hour ago, Mike Hage said:
What is the best way to get ahold of Richard Quinn?
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On 1/20/2024 at 12:26 PM, rjp said:
Would any one have or know where to go to find varias engine parts for light 6 1922 Studebaker. Or how many parts are the same from different years. Just seeing if I could ever find any missing parts if I bought a studebaker with the engine in a box? Thanks
There were various differences in Light Six engines 1920 -1924. The most significant are:
- The large aluminum water pump, oil pump and distributor support bracket had two designs depending if the oil fill was on the fan support or near the distributor (~1922 change)
- Two electrical systems used for all years - Wagner or Remy (starter, generator, coil, distributor, condenser) Although you can mix between them, originally they were all from one of the two companies
- Connecting rod, piston pin diameters and pistons had some changes depending on years.
- There were two different valves used 1920-1922 vs 1923-1924
- 1920-mid 1923 used the aluminum head with a Stromberg OS-1 carb on the right side of the engine. Later 1923 - 1924 went to the cast iron head and OE-1 carb on the left side. The control rods and engine blocks are also different between these two designs.
- The Type 45 timing chain and sprockets were introduced in 1923. The crank sprocket, cam sprocket, accessory drive sprocket, chain, distributor drive gear and distributor driven gear were all changed and cannot be intermixed with the 1920-1922 parts
Occasionally you come across some of the parts on eBay or someone may have a spare this or that but they are not readily available. Sometimes its easier to buy a parts car. Oh, and getting the aluminum head off the 26 engine block studs on the earlier cars often results in a lot of frustration and no positive outcome. Egge can make you new pistons, pins, valves, etc. They are making pistons and valves for my car right now.
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17 hours ago, commander Dave said:
Stude Light; Do you have any contact info for Restoration Supply? It wouldn't hurt for me to try 1 size smaller packing rope before getting another shaft. Thanks
Number is 800-306-7008
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Restoration Supply is another option. That is what I used on my Light Six packing
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Literature on the Model 46 is few and far between and its predecessor, the Model 45, isn't much better. While at Hershey this past October, I found an illustrated parts list for the Model 45B which is close to being the same car as mine.
The book has a nice cutaway of the transmission and verified that the thrust washer (part 716T), found in one of the spare transmissions, is indeed supposed to be in there. My transmission did not have a thrust washer. It also verifies that the gaskets I made are supposed to be present under the front and rear bearing covers (important for stack up and measurement for thrust washer)).
The thrust washer I found was badly worn so I decided to reassemble the transmission input and main shafts with the new bearings and gaskets and measure the gap between the input and output shafts where the washer goes. I did this by installing a dummy washer that was a bit thinner but would ensure the two shafts were not interfacing on a radius. I then indicated off the input shaft and used a dead blow hammer to move that shaft fore/aft in the bearing (it's a line-to-line fit in the bearing). The thickness of the dummy washer plus the indicator movement gave me the gap I was looking for. I figured I would use this distance minus 0.020" for a washer thickness.
I have some EDT-150 stock and can make a thrust washer from it. EDT-150 is like a 4140 steel in a slightly heat treated condition. Based on my simple file test it is similar in hardness to the worn washer. That shafts are really not that hard either.
I'm thinking that the primary root cause of the gear noise was the movement of the input shaft causing the gear mesh between the input shaft and counter shaft to move off of centerline. Once in 3rd the transmission is very quiet as the input and output shafts are locked together (no relative movement across the thrust washer either). Now I'm wondering if I still mix and match gears to get the ones with the least gear face wear. In my past life I was a development engineer for manual transmissions and saw first hand how minute changes in the gear face microgeometry made huge changes in noise. Looking at how crudely these gear faces are designed and machined, I don't think it will make much difference in mixing gears and think I will still go with the least worn ones.
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I had to go digging a few pages since my last post. Sorry, no races with the Model 47....yet.
One of my many winter projects includes working on the 1921 Olds. If you had followed this thread, one issue I mentioned is the transmission had a lot of gear noise in 1st and 2nd prior to my ownership and that really hasn't changed. I've driven many 1920s era cars with straight cut gears and this car is really loud comparatively. I primarily drive in 3rd so it isn't much of a problem, but I would like to improve it. During the rebuild, I went through the trans and it didn't look too bad inside and the bearings also felt good.
Step one was to pull out the transmission back out. Not too hard of a job.
@rustyjazz1938 has a 1922 Olds Model 47 and that transmission is very similar but has a flat plate clutch and a torque tube off the rear. Well, he happened to have a spare unit AND was also storing a spare transmission for another friend, Aaron, who owns a 1923 Olds Model 43AB (another flat plate clutch). They both offered parts if I needed them. I disassembled those two spares and put them in my ultrasonic tank for cleaning.
I marked all the parts and laid them out for inspection
All the gears and bearings are common. The only differences are in the shift towers, housings and input shafts. As far as wear, each part has pros and cons. Although I wouldn't typically mix and match gears that have not worn in together, I'm going to try it on this unit and see if I can get some improvement.
I decided to purchase new bearings to replace the original New Departure 1210 and 1307 parts. New Departure joined with Hyatt in 1965 and then stopped making automotive bearings in 1986, so I turned to Timken for replacements (6210 and 6307). I figured two bearings for $50 was worth investing in since I had everything apart. Interestingly, these are metric sized bearings. I just received them and you can feel that they have zero play as compared to the used ND ones that have just a smidge of axial play.
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Eric,
I recalled seeing this post early last year and enjoying it but now that I am a 1962 F-85 caretaker and you helped me with a couple of parts now, I'm having to reread the post and am finding some very helpful tidbits. Thank you.
Scott
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They did a nice job and it isn't overly expensive (something like $100 or $120). There are a number of shops offering this work. I used Egge since they were making my pistons and had to box stuff up to ship anyway. Seems like shipping costs can become like 50% of the cost to get a part nowadays.
I wanted to get them cut down close to the finished surface so we could lay the gasket flat on the head and start marking the hole centers. Once we got those all marked we used various size endmills to bore the holes in the new inserts to the correct size and location.
Recall that some of the inserts were installed off-center of the hole to repair the eroded areas which were not always concentric with the original hole.
This is how the head looks once we got done today. There are a few dabs of JB Weld just to fill in a few occlusions and screwdriver dents. The entire head is going to get milled next so all the surfaces will be flat and will seal with the new head gasket.
Then the shaft goes in to support those gears. I added a little sealant (Permatex The Right Stuff in this case) to the shaft where it presses into the case then install the cotter pin. 
Next goes in the countershaft assembly which has to be manipulated a bit to fish it through the top of the case.
I used a dead blow hammer and drove the bearing flush with the case, then installed the speedometer drive gear, rear housing gasket (coated with Permatex High Tack), and the rear bearing housing. The rear housing has a boss that pushes the bearing farther into the case. To avoid breaking this cast iron housing, I worked around the bolt pattern turning each bolt about a quarter turn until the housing was flush.
Positioning the sliding gears in neutral, holding the output shaft stationary and rotating the input shaft, you can feel some resistance which means there is a little preload on that new thrust washer. If I repeat this process while pulling outward on each shaft the resistance between shafts is gone which means that there is just a very slight load on that washer induced by the oil film on those bearings.
It sets rock hard. When we mill the water port inserts down this coming weekend, we'll hit this interface too.
There are a few particularly bad ones and a couple close to the combustion chamber seal. I decided to do the job correctly this time around. If you are thinking welding....absolutely not! This aluminum is really dirty so difficult to weld and it is very prone to cracking when welding, even when you heat soak/cool it properly. I decided on installing aluminum insert plugs, then milling flush. The first step was to contact one my friends, Mike, who has a really nice Cincinnati mill he restored. We then bored the eroded holes oversize to accept the aluminum plugs. Then for each hole we carefully measured the hole and machined some aluminum stock down to be a very slight press fit (like 0.0005" - 0.001"), depending on diameter.
With the head heating in the grill, I had all the inserts in the deep freeze at -10 deg F. This allowed most of the inserts to be gently tapped in. I made sure to liberally apply Loctite retaining compound to each one before inserting.
Once done I'll have the head milled flat.
Step 3: Let stud cool but while still hot add more Kroil.
You laugh but gentle tapping along multiple points avoids really messing up the aluminum. I started with some penetrating oil and smacking each stud with a hammer to try to break any rust bonds. No go! So, I fished some rope down into one cylinder at a time and would spin up the hand crank to try popping the head off with the piston coming up to compress the rope into the head. Nope. So I gave up.
Fast forward 6 months.... Pierre decided to sell his lake house and I inquired about the car. He told me to make an offer and I bought it. It turns out that the guy Pierre originally bought the house from also got the car with the house, so I know it had sat there at least 35 years. I brought it home and out in the sunlight.
It needed a little work. After 5 years of a nut and bolt restoration....
1941 President revival
in Studebaker, Erskine & Rockne
Posted
That oil pickup is supposed to float in the oil and not rest on the bottom of the pan so you may want to make sure it isn’t “oil logged”.