63viking

Power enhancement ideas

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I am now working on a way to turbo both banks. My muffler guy is going to make a mount between the front and back header, and reroute the exhaust.

Right now, I'm looking for a large turbo for it.

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3 hours ago, 63viking said:

I am now working on a way to turbo both banks. My muffler guy is going to make a mount between the front and back header, and reroute the exhaust.

Right now, I'm looking for a large turbo for it.

I know I am getting far afield from the topic but I would be interested to see what he comes up with. I have always had issues with getting the exhaust back out of the engine bay due to the limited room between the anti-lock and the rear corner of the block. Getting exhaust to the turbo or getting a down pipe from the turbo are not a problem, doing both at the same time has given me fits.

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1 hour ago, 63viking said:

You want my secret eh?

Well I'll tell you that I have reworked the rear header.

I'm sure it will entail substantial rework. I have reworked several myself, and I know this isn't an easy project, so of course it piqued my curiosity. I would guess others may be interested as well. Is this going to be twin-charged, adding the turbo to an already supercharged engine? I don't know of anyone that has done such a thing in a Reatta.

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I don't know if this engine could handle both. I really don't want to blow it as I have too much into it.

I'm thinking it will have to be a hot one with no intercooler. I can't see a way to incorporate one. Every 90%

turn you put into the pipe you lose boost.

I also thought of just turboing the front bank as you have and adding it into the supercharger.

But I think that might be too hard on the engine also.

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Do you have a water/methanol injection system installed? That can sometimes take the place of an intercooler. Here where I live- we have washer fluid that's rated -20F for Winter, and only $2 a gallon.

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Interesting ideas all. Maybe this should be its own topic if desired to pursue further. Always happy to share.

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4 hours ago, 63viking said:

'm thinking it will have to be a hot one with no intercooler. I can't see a way to incorporate one. Every 90%

turn you put into the pipe you lose boost.

 

Jon- please go to YouTube, and type in the Search- "Rear mounted turbo". There are many videos of proven designs, of an incredibly strange, but totally logical concept. After watching a few- hopefully you'll wonder as I do- why does everyone insist on installing the turbo within inches of the hot exhaust?

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6 hours ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

why does everyone insist on installing the turbo within inches of the hot exhaust?

 

I believe the reason is to reduce turbo lag. Having the turbo bolted directly to the exhaust manifold would be ideal. Throttle response is improved by having the expanding hot exhaust gases get to the turbo immediately in order for it to spin up quickly and start building boost . The further you mount the turbo from the exhaust manifold the more turbo lag you will have. 2seater might chime in. I'm sure he knows a lot more about this than I do.

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Thanks 89RedDarkGray, I will do that.

And Yes I have water methanol injection to keep the supercharger cool..

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2 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Just a suggestion... If you would like to start a new topic about turbos I think I can move the turbo  posts in this thread over to the new topic and maybe we can pick up where we left off here.

I am good with doing that but there hasn't been a lot of interest in the past. Not a criticism, just that there is a greater interest in plug and play parts and accessories. Perhaps a boosted thread? There are many different ways of force feeding, including chemically with nitrous. There was that other system, electrical I think, that came up over on ROJ too.

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4 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Just a suggestion... If you would like to start a new topic about turbos I think I can move the turbo  posts in this thread over to the new topic and maybe we can pick up where we left off here.

 

This almost fits in a thread titled "Modifying":)

 

4 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I believe the reason is to reduce turbo lag.

 

Yes, that is what everyone thought- until the experiments were done, and the concept was more refined. Our atmosphere can be thought of as a fluid, too- especially when compressed and cooled. With fluid dynamics- volume is a key. With some of the applications- there's not even a need for an intercooler; the long aluminum pipe is a heat sink. Many of the systems also use "water to air" coolers (basically an AC evaporator on top of the intake, between air charge). You must watch the videos I suggested to learn what I'm talking about. Go to YouTube, type "rear mounted turbo".

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There are many ways to accomplish boost. Squires, or STS, is/was one of the rear mount proponents. I saw an install on a Corvette on one of the Saturday morning car shows. It  certainly worked, replaced the mufflers. There are a few questions to answer when looking over locating a turbocharger outside the engine bay: can it be protected from damage, is there a source for cool clean inlet air to the compressor, is there room to run a 2.5"ish compressor outlet pipe back to the engine air inlet and finally, feed oil to the center section and return it to the engine. The last one will likely require a scavenge pump to pump the oil back to the pan since the turbo rotating assembly cannot be pressurized on the drain side of the bearings. 

Edit: I have given this some serious thought about trying the rear mount on my Ranger pickup. There is a lot of room under the bed, room for air inlet in a rear wheel housing, similar to the stock air inlet of the front wheelwell, lots of room to run a discharge pipe under the cab outside the frame and over the right front wheel to connect to the stock air filter housing. The only hurdle is the oiling system. A work in thought process -_-

Edited by 2seater (see edit history)
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18 minutes ago, 2seater said:

The only hurdle is the oiling system.

 

STS has that covered, too. They've revamped their entire operation. Unveiling soon, early 2018. Check out their website. Their "kits" and separate components are quite impressive. I can't wait to see the new stuff.

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1 hour ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

 

STS has that covered, too. They've revamped their entire operation. Unveiling soon, early 2018. Check out their website. Their "kits" and separate components are quite impressive. I can't wait to see the new stuff.

I guess this sort of system does qualify as a performance muffler, so it' s in the right place. I am familiar with some of the STS products and they have been around for many years. I only mentioned some of the items to be examined as a package, not in isolation. I will be interested to see how an oil-less system would work so I don't dismiss anything out of hand. Just for reference, a moderate sized turbo, such as used on a GN, has a minimum cross section of 7.75", so about twice as thick as a common 4" case muffler. It's funny how large things become when trying to fit them in limited space <_< If this is rear or undercar mounted, I do not see how that is cool clean air. It sure hasn't been in my experience? I am probably not qualified to comment further as I have no direct experience with this system.

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I do not know if a turbocharger fed from only one-half of the engine exhaust will be powerful enough to provide enough flow to enhance the existing supercharger. Your engine already has a greater demand than a standard normally aspirated will have. I think the compound boost is an intriguing idea but is above my pay grade at this point. It may be that the already supercharged engine with it's greater output will drive the turbocharger more forcefully to provide useful boost but I would suggest contacting one of the specialists to get some suggestions.

 

I do know there are one or two current production engines that use a system like that but no other detail. The higher output 2-stroke Detroit Diesels also used a variation of a supercharger as a scavenge pump and a large turbocharger to feed into the supercharger but I believe it used a bypass valve that rerouted some of the turbo boost past the supercharger once it had spooled up. The supercharger provided the startup and low load air supply and then the turbo took over at higher speed and load.

 

My very low boost turbo setup is an attempt to find a relatively simple, low cost, installation that provides useful improvement. It is fed from the front manifold only and exhausts into the existing rear manifold, so only two pipes need be modified or fabricated. This was a screenshot of a recording I did when I was testing this installation. This was approx. 4 psi of boost indicated and should be in the area of 215-225 hp. This was my bone stock engine save for two modifications, it had a 1988 camshaft and the rear manifold restriction was removed. The exhaust did have a modern replacement cat. and a straight through muffler, otherwise stock 2.25" diameter. As can be seen, this is still likely below the level of 63Vikings supercharged engine without help.

  

DSC00963.JPG

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1 hour ago, handmedownreatta said:

isn't the grand national the same engine?i suppose there's not enough room to use its turbo system.

It is similar but the 3800 has evolutionary changes that make it quite different. Some of the GN's systems can be adapted but the biggest difference is we are front wheel drive vs rwd, so room is definitely an issue as you surmise. I do use parts from an early GN turbo, including the wastegate.  The exhaust manifolds might fit with some work but would probably point in the wrong directions, requiring similar rework to just using ours as the base.

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8 hours ago, 2seater said:

My very low boost turbo setup is an attempt to find a relatively simple, low cost, installation that provides useful improvement. It is fed from the front manifold only and exhausts into the existing rear manifold, so only two pipes need be modified or fabricated.

 

I really like that idea. Does it require changes to the PROM to make it work? Can a stock MAF and O2 sensor be used with this setup?

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4 hours ago, Ronnie said:

 

I really like that idea. Does it require changes to the PROM to make it work? Can a stock MAF and O2 sensor be used with this setup?

Only testing would tell if the stock prom will work unmodified. I know my present setup is very close to stock, but I have tried so many variations, I must admit I have lost track without going through the archives. It may only require using a bit better fuel. Boost starts to show up at relatively high rpm where the engine will tolerate it better. That was my intention as it is much easier on other parts. The MAF and O2 are all stock and in stock locations. The MAF is about at the upper limit in the screenshot and the injectors are right at their limit.

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24 minutes ago, 63viking said:

I just can't get my head around turboing half of the engine.

I was unsure about trying this too but I saw either Saab, or maybe Volvo, had an engine right around the turn of the millennium that did this. I could never really find any details of how it was done, but I am pretty sure it is engineered beyond what I can accomplish. I asked a custom cam maker if the idea was feasible with our stock camshaft which has almost zero overlap, so backpressure wouldn't be a problem. As he put it, the engine will act as if half turbo and half supercharged and should work. The turbocharger in my sig. is actually from a 2.3liter Ford turbo Thunderbird.

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I intended to start a thread to invite comment about what some have done to enhance performance. I have some experience in a limited area but there is a wealth of other modifiers out there that may have been lost in time and are way beyond my small experience. Things like engine swaps, nitrous oxide, gear ratio changes when rebuilding, manual transaxles, air intakes, new injectors and exhaust mods. Not a complete list by any means. Even things like aerodynamics. 

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53 minutes ago, 2seater said:

I was unsure about trying this too but I saw either Saab, or maybe Volvo, had an engine right around the turn of the millennium that did this.

 

1991 Saab 900s

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1 hour ago, 2seater said:

Only testing would tell if the stock prom will work unmodified. I know my present setup is very close to stock,

 

If no tuning changes were needed there might be a (small) demand for a bolt-on turbo kit if it was just a matter of changing pipes. I'm sure I'm over simplifying what would need to be done but I like the idea of a turbo kit that would add a little zip to the Reatta engine without stressing the transmission too much.

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