5 Speed Gertag

[Degerb]

I have a 90' TC 2.2 16V Gertag 5 speed Vin #ZC2FR1206LB206218. I have been experiencing stiff and erratic shifting problems. I took it to my transmission place and they have checked the cables, bushings and the selector & crossover brackets... everything works as advertised until they hook it back up to the tranny. They seem to think the problem lies in the shifting forks or such, internally to the transmission. They are unable to find parts etc. and don't really want to start tearing it down without a parts source which doesn't surprise me at all.

So, my question is... Does anyone know of a good used transmission that is available, a repair shop or possible spare parts that I can contact?

[Reaper1]

The Getrag 284 is not serviceable. Unfortunately if it has an internal problem, it is junk. From what another member has said, not even Getrag will mess with it.

[Reaper1]

How is the clutch? If the clutch is worn then that can cause shifting issues as well.

[Hemi Dude]

The fact that the shifter and cables work OK when disconnected from the transaxle does not mean that the cables are properly adjusted when attached. 

Kindly tell us PRECISELY what problems you are encountering... 2 to 3? 4 t0 5th? Forward range to reverse? If you help us with details, we may be able to help you. 

Remember, we cannot see what you or your mechanic can.

[Degerb]

The clutch is fine... a new clutch and timing belt was installed prior to my purchase of the car.  The shifting problems do not follow a set pattern, the only consistant problem is it's very stiff to shift into any gear. Sometimes it doesn't want to go into 1st but then shifts really smooth into 2nd, 3rd, having to hunt for 4th but will not shift into 5th but will shift back into 4th easily altho stiffly. Other times it's very difficult to get into and out of 1st and reverse. Last week after coming to a stop it would only go into 4th, after jockeying around it locked into 4th. After more attempts it finally broke free and I was able to go 1st-2nd-3rd-4th but had to drive home in 4th, I could not find 5th. The day I took it into the shop everything worked fine but stiff. At the shop I couldn't get it into 1st or reverse to turn around then finally I was able to get into the proper gear. I pick up the car in a day or so and then I can give you an update on any any improvement or pattern developing. 

[Reaper1]

I am by far an expert on the internal workings of the Getrag 284, I do know how most transmissions work fairly well. It kinda sounds like something is loose/broken in the shifting mechanism. I currently have mine out of the vehicle and another thing I would suggest checking is the cable adapters on the end of the shift rods. They are pinch bolted on and if they have worked loose over time, move, then jam back up...that could cause all kinds of shifting issues.

 

How is the fluid? That can actually be changed. 

 

Who replaced the clutch and do you know what they replaced it with? The reason I ask is because apparently  (according to another member) aftermarket clutches can be questionable. On a smooth, flat surface, if you put the car in gear, the clutch disengaged as normal and foot off of the brakes...does the car try to move or does it sound/feel like the clutch is still dragging? This same experiment can be done with the car on jack stands, no tires on the front, and of course parking brake engaged with the rear tires chocked. If it does move, drag, etc...something isn't right with the clutch and that absolutely will cause shifting issues as well.

[Hemi Dude]

Reaper is right. It sounds like the clutch to me also.  When you say "new clutch", are you saying new pressure plate, clutch disc and TO bearing? This is not an easy transaxle/engine combination to get new clutch parts for. It sounds as though the clutch disc itself is too "thick" which therefore would not allow full disengagement of the clutch, which then continues to rotate the input shaft of the transmission.

Since ALL gears including Reverse are SYNCHRONIZED, you would not get any grinding in Reverse as you would with any other trans. The difficulty in getting it into gear is that the synchronizers are desperately trying to stop the rotating gears, when standing still, and trying to synchronize the speed of the 2 gear sets that are being attempted to engage when under way.

Often they will just fall into one another, other times it is stiff (difficult).  How does shift into the various gears when the engine is turned off?

I actually have a minor case of this with my 8 valve engine attached to a 555. Reverse will grind if I don't first shift into 1st gear and then "QUICKLY" shift into reverse. Years of wear on the clutch disc has not changed this one bit. Since I am use to it and am the only driver of this car, it matters little. Once under way, I have no problems.

[Degerb]

Thank you guys... A new path for me to investigate!  All the fluids have  been changed by my shop. As far as the clutch parts.... I simply don't know. The car was an estate donation to a GW Charity the only thing I know is the CarMax thingy says the Transmission Assy and TOB along with the Timing belt were changed. Where, With what and Why is unknown. Sometime when a person gambles you unfortunately lose few hands.... the shifting issue, the AC not blowing cool and the AC blown air is all under the dash, the car is totally clean. I do have to either wait on a new accumulator or do something there, as I think it is NOS!

[Reaper1]

The A/C thing could be as simple as a vacuum line being disconnected. Check over by where the heater core goes through the firewall. There's typically 1 or 2 hard plastic lines under the 2 rubber hoses. The hard plastic lines are typically black and gray. Check to make sure that they are hooked up. It is very common for them to get brittle and break.

 

 

[Hemi Dude]

1 hour ago, Reaper1 said:

The A/C thing could be as simple as a vacuum line being disconnected. Check over by where the heater core goes through the firewall. There's typically 1 or 2 hard plastic lines under the 2 rubber hoses. The hard plastic lines are typically black and gray. Check to make sure that they are hooked up. It is very common for them to get brittle and break.

 

 

ADDITIONALLY Degerb, there is also a 'VACUUM CHECKVALVE" in one of the lines. Some times out in the engine compartment as on my TC, or it could be inside under the dash. This is the vacuum feed line to the controls. This check valve can become plugged, allowing no passage of the vacuum signal to the control. Remove it and attempt to suck or blow through it. It should flow one way, restrict flow the other way. When installing it or a replacement, be sure you can suck through it on the end hooked to the vacuum source.

[Degerb]

Well, I got the car back from the transmission shop... I tried your suggestion of checking the clutch disengagement and there is absolutely no creep of the car in neutral, with engine running. With the engine off, the shifting from 1-2, 3-4 is easy...3 fingers worth of effort, but moving to the other side of the quadrant, 2-3 and 4-5 very stiff almost two hands worth!  With  engine on, all movements of the shift lever immediately very, very stiff with gears hard to find, in fact it seems worse from my previous post. I did ask them if they felt the transmission could be adjusted more.... they were very put out that I asked!  They repeated that it definitely was something internal and suggested that possibly it could be a corroded fork or rails or both. 

[Nile]

I've got a 16V 90TC and had a similar issue a couple of years ago when the shift action became progressively worse.  The problem was that the bolt holding the crossover cable to the transmission had loosened.  The fix wasn't as simple as just tightening the bolt, because the cable had to be adjusted, and that took a couple of tries.  Once we got that adjustment right, the transmission shifted perfectly.  It might be worthwhile to try different settings at the transmission connections, esp for the crossover cable.  A friend and a lift make this a lot easier.  By the way, I'm assuming you have checked the tightness and adjustment of the cables at the shifter.  Good luck.  -  Nile

[Degerb]

Thanks Nile... A question tho... Prior to your rigging,  did your transmission shift easier when the engine was off, like mine? That happening doesn't make sense to me if it is cable related. How did you adjust the crossover... trial and error? My service manual shows a tool stowed on the tranny did you use that for the adjustment? My shop couldn't find one on my unit.

[Nile]

My tranny behaved the same with the engine on or off prior to the fix.  The adjustment was just trial & error and no special tools were needed.  

When I read your first post I figured it was the clutch, but as you progressed thru different attempted fixes, I thought I'd share my experience.  I agree that a cable adjustment shouldn't, in theory, be affected by whether or not the engine is running, but it's a free, relatively easy process when you consider the alternatives.

[Degerb]

I just went out and tried the car again as Reaper suggested.... no creep at all. I then shifted to neutral and could not engage any gear until I shut the engine off, then was able to go thru 1-2, 3-4 could not find 5 and R easily. I'm thinking now that the clutch is not disengaging as Reaper suggested but dragging just enough to effect the shifting but not enough for the car to creep as it is indeed a heavy car. The difficulty moving from one side of the quadrant to the other could be as you suggested the rigging of the crossover cable. Now, I have a problem... do we just change the clutch assy thinking it's not the tranny, put it all together and then find out there is something wrong in the Getrag also and we have to tear it all back down and install a different transmission! Or go whole hawg and change everything at once?

[Reaper1]

If it were me, I would yank the tranny and take a look at everything. Take and post plenty of pictures of the components, too.

 

If you end up deciding that the Getrag is in fact toast, you can install ANY of the turbo Dodge transmissions (with the exception of the A525...don't touch that with a 10 foot pole!) provided you have the correct shifter and linkage . The easiest ones are the A523/A568 since you don't need to change shifters, but you will need cables.

[Degerb]

Thanks Reaper for those tranny models. I'll keep that in the back of my mind!  One question if you don't mind..  I had a 94 T&C automatic and that tranny was marginal. I had to have it rebuilt 2 times and an OEM installed the 3rd time.  In your estimation, How do those trannys you mentioned stack up against the Gretag, reliability wise? Aesthetically I would prefer to keep the 5 speed, It reminds me of fun times in my old TR6 and MGB. As it stands of right now... I contacted Rick of RDI, he has a good Gretag and also a clutch assy. He says without a doubt my car has a clutch problem perhaps but unlikely a bad tranny. My transmission shop wants to drive my car again and then I'll have the shop contact Rick and hopefully we can decide which way to go at that time!

 

[16v_guru]

I'm working with his shop on this now...we've got him squared away.  

[Reaper1]

The transmission in the '94 T&C was most likely the A604 (aka 41TE) 4-speed automatic transmission. Unless you source a unit from Mexico, you will not find that transmission here in the US that can bolt directly to the 2.2 block as they were only used behind V6's until the 2.4L engines which use a different bellhousing bolt pattern and starter location. Design wise, the A604 isn't that bad. The OD clutch pack is inherently the weak point and there's not a lot that can be done about it. Most of the problems with that transmission, especially early on, were programming in the software and also people not using the right fluid in it (at the time 7176 +3 was all that was available, now you want to use ATF +4 and NOTHING else!).

 

The only automatic choice you really have is the A413 (aka 32TH), which is the same transmission found in the 8V SOHC cars. That transmission can be built to provide good performance and be strong. You can even get a torque biasing differential for it, but you are stuck with a 3-speed automatic and no lock-up converter. This can be changed with the use of a later transmission, however you have to have a way to control the lock-up solenoid, which the stock computer and wiring do not have provisions for.

 

I hope that helps answer your questions and I'm glad you got hooked up with Rick! He's a good and honest guy.

[Degerb]

Well.... I  finally got my TC back from the transmission shop. After much help from RDI and procrastination we finally decided to bite the bullet and install a different Getrag and clutch assy which I purchased from from RDI. I dislike shotgunning but I felt at this point in time it was the most expedient way to go! Anyway, long story short... the tranny now shifts like new, very sweet! In addition Rick almost has me convinced to install a SMECll along with a new B.O.V. Perhaps that will Be a Xmas present for me if I can Con my better half! Many Kudos to the people at RDI I couldn't be happier with any supplier for our TC's and I really recommend them! Now all I have left to do is rebuild the odometer, tear into the top pull down problems, trouble shoot the upper brake light , the intermittent  trunk electrical release and replace the hazard warning switch. I do like the idea and looks of the Windscreen installation.... so always something else to do!

[nkuehn]

I have a Getrag 284 FS with less than 2k miles on it.  I have axles, clutch including both stock and a performance 4 puck for it. 

 

[TwinCamFan]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 9:51 AM, nkuehn said:

I have a Getrag 284 FS with less than 2k miles on it.  I have axles, clutch including both stock and a performance 4 puck for it. 

 

I hope your trans finds a good home NK, they're surely not making anymore of them and heck, Getrag of North America's  website doesn't even list the 284's they built for the 16V TC's (or the ones they built for the 91-93 5SPD DOHC Lumina Z34's for that matter!)  In they're products listing.

 

Great catching up  a lil in Memphis with you and Steve, let's not wait 5 years to do it again! Did you tell me you travel out to Cali periodically for work?

[Rusty Wrench]

I have an 89 16 valve TC with shifting problem - All gears shift fine most of the time, however once in a while the shifter binds from 4th to 5th. When it binds I have to shift back to 4th and try 5th a few times until it goes in. The car has just over 14,000 miles (sat for about 10 years in a garage) and the trans fluid (5/30) is fresh. The clutch feels good and the cables appear tight at both ends and free in the housings. Any Ideas?

[Hemi Dude]

9 hours ago, Rusty Wrench said:

I have an 89 16 valve TC with shifting problem - All gears shift fine most of the time, however once in a while the shifter binds from 4th to 5th. When it binds I have to shift back to 4th and try 5th a few times until it goes in. The car has just over 14,000 miles (sat for about 10 years in a garage) and the trans fluid (5/30) is fresh. The clutch feels good and the cables appear tight at both ends and free in the housings. Any Ideas?

My first question to you is, do you have the factory shop manual for your car? If you do, and you are mechanically inclined, you may want to make a small adjustment to your crossover shift cable which is described in the book.

If you do not have the book, the red covered 90 - 91 Chrysler's TC by Maserati Service manual, though the blue '89 manual will suffice, let me know and I'll send you the needed information. Better yet, I'll just PM it to you. Look for 'Message'.

[Degerb]

Hey Rusty... after I had my tranny replaced, that fall I stored the car in an unheated garage here in N. Idaho. When I took it out the next spring I started to experience symptoms similar to yours. After an extended trip with the car, the tranny shifting became silky smooth again. This past winter I had my car in a heated garage 50 degrees or so.... This spring when I took the car for its first drive in almost 10 months the shfting was still nice and smooth. I really think a lot of problems are caused by our cars not being driven enough or long enough and perhaps surface rust is a problem on the shifting rails in some winter storage areas. I would suggest that your take  your car on a fairly long trip, getting your tranny good and warm with a lot of shifting  (perhaps you already have) and see if the tranny will free up by itself. I'm just speaking from my experiences, certainly not from any particular mechanical knowledge. A lot of the guys here at the site gave me a lot of insight and their thoughts on my particular problem, which helped greatly. I hope your problem will clear itself, these cars are really fun to drive when everything is working according to Hoyle! Good Luck