QUESTION

[Guest]

Peter: We all know how much you obtain your Full Classic for. I believe it was less than $200.00 correct me if I am wrong. You have told people in the past that they should go out any buy a REAL CLAASSIC ie Packard 12 or Caddy 16. If you did not own your present rolling chicken coupe (WOULD YOU AT TODAYS PRICES BE WILLING TO GO OUT AND PURCHASE A PACKARD V12 OR CADDY V16) Remember Peter you get what you pay for. Looks like you have about a $200.00 car.

[Idle Swede]

Would be very interesting to see a picture of this "superior" classic that outshines everything ever built. Would it be possible for Mr. H to post a picture of this wonder?

[Guest]

Guys...if I HAD two hundred bucks in 1955..I could have bought a hell of a lot more interesting Packard Twelve than I have. What I GOT for twenty five bucks, was a well worn but still serviceable '38 Formal Sedan. Two hundred, in those days, would have gotten me a MINT town car or Brunn.<P>Big CLOSED classics are not going for that much today. I have seen a number of production bodied CLOSED Packard Twelves go in the low thirties. Since I already have one, no need to get another. Anyway, I am tapped out...just spent close to two hundred grand on my "new" airplane ( purchase price plus some "mods"....).<P>Yeah..I am getting to the point now...where THINK I can e mail photos. If you guys want to see what my "chicken coop" looks like, E mail me your ID...and I will knock off a few with my new digital camera. BUT...fair's fair...let's see what YOUR classics look like.<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

Peter: REREAD MY POST AGAIN AND ANSWER MY MAIN QUESTION. I could really care less if you spent 200 grand on a plane. That is your problem

[Guest]

For Pack 53...YES...if that is what you wanted...YES I would go buy a Packard Twelve or Cad. 16 "if I didnt already have one"<P>PFH

[Ed Miller]

Many CCCA members are concerned about the aging of the membership. A number of remdies are offered by those who consider it a problem. Packard 53 however brings up a good point, albeit inadvertantly. The Packard 12, Cadillac 16, Duesenberg, etc., especially rag top models generally cost somewhere in the six figures and more. True there are some modest costing Full Classics. But they are much less sought after. How many 18 year old kids can afford a $100,000+ auto? Obviously, not many. Until middle age few collectors are willing to spend that much money on a hobby. I envy those who were around in the '50s and 60's and purchased Full Classics at prices that don't make headline news.

[1937hd45]

I think all of the above have touched on something. The hobby will never be what it was in the "Golden Era" late 1960's early 1970's. Price may be to blame, but there is so much more to do with whatever extra money you may have. Most people I know are downsizing their collections and finishing projects,as well as getting into other hobby fields.

[Guest]

1937hd45 ~ Another possible reason for today's hobby being so different from the '60s & 70's is society, and what is the "correct" way of raising children. When my children were growing up in the '60s, they went where Mom and Dad took them and did what Mom and Dad decided the family would do. In my family it was Antique AND Classic car activities.<P>Now that my kids are in their 40s they tell me that their friends lives revolve around what their children want to do. Mom and Dad often no longer control the family, the children do. Just look at some of the TV ads. The children make the decisions for the family and the parents are portrayed as dimwits. Eight year olds are telling us what to buy. <P>As the politicians always say, "It's for the CHILDREN," and it is politically incorrect for it to be otherwise.<P>With that in mind, is it any wonder that the upcoming generation has less interest in the cars than we old pharts did at the same point in our lives? I wonder how much pleasure they will get out of playing soccer when they are 60+ years old?<P>hvs<P>PS: I got my Classic for $25 in 1951 and have kept it for 51 years, and through two restorations. Unfortunately the last new top cost more the the original 1941 selling price of the car. But then stamps were 3 cents in '41.

[Guest]

Our changing hobby is an interesting and important subject. The National Board of Directors along with many of the Regional Boards have been discussing this for many years, searching for ideas to strengthen the membership base. The fact that our membership is aging is indisputable. The fact that CCCA membership is at all-time high levels is somewhat contradictory to the perceived problem of falling participation. The main object of Board level discussions is to avoid real declining membership in the future. The best probable way to do that, in the short term, is to build interest and membership now. One of the best ways to do that is through interesting events and good publicity of those events. We have the interesting events but the publicity may be lagging behind. Our Public Relaitions Chairman, Dennis Schellin, is always looking for new and interesting ways to get the CCCA name and our events exposed to the general hobbyist. Please give Dennis a shout with your ideas! This website and discussion forum is an excellent tool, providing we concentrate on the enthusiastic people, interesting events and exciting cars.<BR>Another indisputable fact is the high prices realized for high-end Classic Cars, such as the Duesenbergs, V-16 Cadillacs and others. Let's not forget that there are a lot of very interesting cars on our Approved List that can be in your garage for much less money. There are finite numbers of Packard 12's and Marmon 16's, so not everyone will get one, nor does every CCCA member want one. That's what makes our events so good...our diversity. What can you get for under $25,000 in a Full Classic? In the latest edition of Hemmings Motor News, these are some that are currently for sale:<BR>1937 Cord Custom Beverly,$21,000<BR>1934 Cadillac V-8 Limousine, $19,800<BR>1936 Cadillac 75 Sedan, $22,500<BR>1940 Cadillac 62 Sedan, $18,000<BR>7 other Cadillacs through 1947<BR>1931 LaSalle Cabriolet, $22,000<BR>1947 Lincoln Continental Coupe, $10,000<BR>1928 Packard 526 Coupe, $18,900<BR>1947 Packard 7 passenger sedan, $10,000<BR>1928 Stutz Limousine, $22,000<BR>That is just from a quick glance, so I'm sure there are lots more,and some others that are projects are even less.<BR>While this is certainly not food stamp money, for those with some discretionary money there are reasonably priced cars available. <BR>Our job, as CCCA members, is to spread the good word about this Club, its activities, the cars we play with and the people we meet while doing that.<BR>Thanks for listening while I preach!<BR>Jon Lee

[Guest]

I do not agree with you guys about the "golden years" of the CCCA going into the 1970's. I have been attending CCCA-related events since I was a teen-ager in the early 1950's (a couple of years after the movement got started).<P>Our membership quickly got up to around 1,500 or so. In some ways, our own success injured our original purpose. A little-used archaic word we chose to best symbolize which cars we were for ("CLASSIC") became, by the mid-1960's, thanks to our efforts, something EVERYONE wanted emulate. And therein lies the problem - more and more people wanted to benefit from the status our our Club's concept, without having a sincere interest in what we were about. <P>Compunding the changes in socieity our other "chatters" have pointed out, is a general shift away from a technically competent society that knew how to MAKE things, towards as so called "service" economy. An overwhelming majority of my high school class HAD to be fairly decent auto mechanics just to get to school in the morning ! When they graduated, they had a CHOICE of going on with education, or walking into nice paying jobs in which their ability to do basic math and accomplish tasks with hands accustomed to making things work. <P>Today's high schoolers have a much higher rate of dysfunction. Due to the decreasing interest in basic technology, they are increasingly suitable only for "Do you want fries with that" kind of jobs. Lacking training in the arts and culture, they have little or no interest in the factors that made a classic car so much more interesting than the ordinary old car of its era.<P>This bears a direct relationship to how people related to classic cars down thru the years. In those early years (up to the mid-1960's), the people who owned the big classics, owned them because they actually liked them as machines, for what they were. There sure as hell was no "status" to owning a classic car - we were looked on as something to be laughed at. The overwhelming majority of classic car owners worked on their own cars, and thus knew and could intelligently discuss WHY they liked this or that aspect of this or that big engined classic. In those early years, it would not have occured to anyone to want to participate in a classic car event with a nice ordinary middle-price range eight cylinder Cadillac or Packard - look at photographs of our early events...mentally "lift the hoods"....you saw the "best of the best"...the "biggest of the biggest".<P>By the mid 1960's, the concept of the "classic" had become so popular, we actually had "status", and attracted an increasing number of people whose objectives in having a car they could call "classic" were less and less connected to the machines themselves.<P>I do not know what the per-centage of our membership these days is, as to people who actually LIKE their classic cars for what they are and can do, compared to those who have them just to "show off" at public events ( where what the car is mechanically, and what they can do, is irrelevant).<P>As some "chatters" in here correctly point out, it would be absurd to take an art object that tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars had been spent to make it virtually perfect, and rough it up. The GRAND CLASSIC, where the objective is respect the REAL history of the classic, by restoring it to the condition it was when new, is just ONE part of the classic car club movement. In the earlier years, our driving events were the other important "leg" on which our movement stands.<P>Frankly, who wants to drive ANYTHING in modern metropolitan area traffic these days ! As late as the mid 1960's, many of the roads leading out of the greater Los Angeles area were two lane, much as they were in the 1930's. A caravan of classics out for a picnic or dinner meet, where a pleasant place to park could be found, was a delight. <P>But these days..? Gawd....the Sepulveda Pass leading north out of Los Angeles on a weekend...c'mon...it is HELL these days. The same is true of any metroplitan area where there are large numbers of classic cars. The owners, for many good reasons, just dont want to participate in the kind of meets that got the Club going in the early years, and who can blame them. As stationary show-pieces at public events, they are nice to look at, but you certainly arent going to get the same understanding of what the true classic is all about.<P>How does this affect the future of the Club? Who knows. We can make some predictions - we know that the Club could be half or even a forth of its present size, and be a vibrant force for the preservation of our technical history. Again, look at the impact we made from the 1950's to the early 1960s, when we had less than a FOURTH or our present numbers.<P>Has the whole idea of the word "classic" been changed ? Of course - would would deny that EVERYONE now recognizes the word has value to sell ANYthing you want to get rid of! Should we spend a great deal of time worrying about it....hell no..I have already wasted too much of your time here...NOW...for something IMPORTANT ( where in hell IS my BRITNEY SPEARS DANCE VIDEO, anyway....!)<P>Pete Hartmann

[bubba]

If I had a magic lamp I would wish that all old "classic" cars could not sell for more than $10. Then people who really appreciate them would get to own them. All the rest who wanted everyone to know how much money they had would be doomed to owning "Range Rovers".<BR> I believe that within ten to twenty years from now, a 65 Mustang will be worth more than a 31 Cad V12 , V16 and no I haven't started "celebrating" the 4th yet. There are a number of muscle cars that do already. There are so many "classics" sitting around the market place that are looking for buyers and lots more in garages just sitting. When they do sell it's usually to another dealer who jacks up the price some more. Take a look at the big auctions. You don't see many prewar of any make. <BR> Am I bitter? Well you bet I am. I figure that I'll have to wait till 2025 to get my first Duesy but by then people will be putting Lexus engines in them!

[Shawn Miller]

As a relatively young member (43) I think that everything is generally fine. there will always be "more demand" for a 56 tbird than a 12 cylinder packard, and who really cares. We shouldnt be threatend by car collectors who collect muscle cars, they clearly have the money to buy just about anything they want, they just need educated.<P>It is our job to educate them by getting our cars out there where they can be seen, not just taking them on CCCA sponsored events. We could also use to "open up" our events a bit. I don't think we want mob scenes at our grand classics, but select spectators would not take away from them in my opinion.<P>The cost of actually participating in this club is pretty stiff as well. A family of 4 recently attended the grand experience, and had to pay 4 registration fees(it wasnt me, but that is why i didnt bring my whole brood). give me a break! How can you expect the next generation to be interested in these cars if you make them stay at home with a babysitter. I know of at least 3 dedicated long term members who attended that event but chose not to "register" and didnt attend the 40 dollar a plate dinners either. <P>What does the "registration fee" really get you anyway? Heck, I paid as much to register for that event as peter here paid for his 12 cylinder packard! HA<P>The cost of the cars isnt the problem (I just missed a Full Classic 41 cadillac sedan for 4500 bucks last month!, yes it was drivable) its the cost of our events. This is the most expensive car club i am a member of. While our membership numbers are at at all time high I dont see our participation numbers at an all time high. many of these members have joined as a result of this website. we need to do something proactive to get these people involved or we will lose them.<P>Also we need to be NICE and WELCOMING in our discussions in this forum. the world is watching here. <P>As my mom used to say if you dont have something nice to say, SHUT UP! <P> <P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

[Guest]

Friends:<P>It is difficult to raise much concern from CCCA members about the club's future as long as its membership is at at all time high. But I still think the aging process of the members is inevitable and will eventually become a real problem for the club. <P>Fact is, this club is fairly unattractive to younger members. I am 56 myself and I am one of the youngest members of our chapter. Most of our members are over 75 years old, and many are in poor health and find it difficult to participate in events.<P>I also agree with Jon Lee that the cost of the cars is not all there is too it. There are "cheap" Classics available. But face it, you know that these cars are either fairly unnattractive as classics go or are total wrecks in need of a 75K restoration. <P>When looking at the "low" prices of these cars, consider the kind of alternative collector cars that one could buy that are in the range of 10 to 25K. You can buy a very clean and servicable 65 Mustang convertible for 15K, or do even better with any number of early 60's sports cars or convertibles. Worse still, you can get a flashy street rod for about the same price. You can drive these cars in parades, smoke the tires, take them on tour, impress your friends far more than you ever would with a 39 Cadillac 75 limo that smokes, vapor locks and needs work.<P>I don't think there are any simple answers, but I remain convinced that broading of the Full Classics list to include more and newer cars will eventually be part of the solution. We also need events that appeal to younger folks and new members, many of whom don't like sitting around country clubs gawking at "look but don't touch" million dollar cars and sipping cocktails. They want a hobby they can participate in.<P>Of course, there is no need for any of these ideas if you don't think that there is a problem. We can just keep our beloved club just like it's always been, and take it with us to our graves. But I don't think this is necessary, the CCCA can remain committed to its founding principals and also attract younger members to continue its legacy.

[Mark Huston]

As a new member (less than 1 year) to the CCCA club, but a long time car collector, I must agree with Shawn Miller’s point regarding how expensive this club can be. I guess you could call me a young member, I am 45 with two children still at home. It has taken me years to get the car I now have, ‘29 Studebaker President Brougham, it needs work, but is a driver, so there are times when the choice is between attending a CCCA function, with the expense of a family of four, or saving the money and doing a little more work on the car. An example is a recent CCCA chapter activity, a tour with lunch, the lunch for my family is going to be 100.00, I don’t spend that much on dinner out for our family, let alone lunch. So, the family is staying home, my brother (also a 43 year old Shawn) with his ’29 President touring will tag along and when it is time for lunch we tour by our selves to a more affordable location. My nephew is also going along with my brother and I, he has a ’29 President also, and he is only 24 years old and has two small children. Yes, 24 and he has a 1929 Studebaker President. Who says that younger people don’t have an interest in old cars, I am sure the exposure of being around his uncles while growing up has effected him positively towards early cars. And the same thing can happen to others. One of my desires is to be able to drive my car on a CARavan someday, right now my family budget and the cost of attending a CARavan are worlds apart. Maybe someday in the future there will be a CARavan close to home that is within our budget so that I won’t have to read about it later in the club magazine, but can experience it first hand ourselves. I would love for my daughters to go on a CARavan with us before they leave home and start families of their own.

[1937hd45]

Just an observation from someone that has been in the old car hobby for 40 years. How would a non CCCA member ever find out about an upcoming event? I've owned a 1928 Packard and a 1933 Lagonda, both classics but never thought of joining a club that can't be seen by the general public.

[Shawn Miller]

I hesitated to start this discussion here since I am trying to avoid politically charged subjects, but I think this needs to be discussed. maybe we should start a separate topic for it. I do know that a national Board member is bringing these cost issues up at that level so we may see a change there soon.<P>in my opinion kids should be able to come to any and all of our events free or almost free. I have never met a kid that could eat $40 bucks worth of food.<P>I think it is important to involve them in things like CARavans since our nation is quickly becoming "Homogenized", and our unique regionalism is disappearing at a rapid pace. 10 years from now it may be impossible to find any store other than Walmart in a small town.<P>As far as inviting people to our events, we simply need to publicize them. Trust me the public is interested in this. There should be a press release sent out to all local media whenever we have a grand classic or CARAvan. Feature articles would result. We should have our own show on Speedvision. Admission could be charged to non members which would generate money for the host region and help off set the costs to members. this would also keep it from becoming a free for all or mob scene. <P>If people are afraid it would get too crowded to properly judge and tabulate, then we could just make the public admission hours limited.<P>The biggest hurdle to expanding our club to people in my age group, are in my opinion to dispell the following myths:<P>1 the cars are too expensive for most people.<BR>2 the cars arent drivable.<BR>3 parts are unobtainable.<BR>4 servicing them is difficult.<BR>5 only the rich and famous need apply.<P>This will take education and time, but will be worth it. <P>We are but temporary custodians of these rolling pieces of history. It is part of our job to find someone to take care of them after our time is past. <P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

[1937hd45]

Shawn, Is it true that in the CCCA the owner and not the vehicle is judged? I've been told that on a rainy day those "special" owners never have to take the car out of a trailer, and go on to win whatever class they are in.<p>[ 07-05-2002: Message edited by: 1937hd45 ]

[Guest]

Shawn:<P>I concur completely with your comments on the costs of events, particularly high costs for children attending. One reason this happens is simply because so few members have young children of their own, it is just not on their radar screens. <P>I am running a VMCCA tour event this summer and we have included friendly rates for kids. We have zero admission charge for kids 14 and under, and banquet charges half for kids.<P>Unfortunately, we still attracted very few families with children to our tour, but there are some families with grandchildren taking advantage of the program. I think it is going to take some time for tourists and club organizers to understand how important it is to have kids coming on these tours. I am afraid there are still a few members out there who see children as a pain in the neck who might scratch their cars or get in the way.

[Ed Miller]

1937 re judging: My 1933 Packard has always won first place at a CCCA Grand Classic until it won everything there is to win. She's been judged in the sun and in the rain, but I have always had to take her out of the trailer and onto the field. I live more than 100 miles from the heart of my CCCA region and am not active other than for Grand Classics. I have heard the rumor of favortism but have never experianced it. However, I don't know how my 1932 Cadillac rated a 99.75 score at the last Grand Classic in Florida. It's just not that good from the Grand Classic perspective but runs great.

[Ed Miller]

Post Script: The last Grand Classic was opened to AACA members. Quite of few showed up and I believe had a very nice time. It was held at the Collier Automotive Museum in Naples, Florida. There was no room for more spectators and the Museum prohibited more people from coming.

[Guest]

To 1937,<BR>I hope I can help dispell a very nasty rumor. As a past National Head Judge, Area Head Judge and Grand Classic Coordinator I can assure you that if you want your car to win an award it must come out of the trailer. Several years back at a Grand Classic in Valley Forge PA, we were visited by hurricane Bertha. Several owners wished to have their cars judged in the trailer and the requests were declined. The cars were brought out. At another event a couple of years ago, an exhibitor did not want to start his car as it was situated on an incline and he was afraid it would run into the car in front. This after all four wheels were chocked! The owner was informed that if the car was not started, those categories requiring the car to be running would be scored unsatisfactory, or a full 5 point deduction in each one. He started the car, the car was judged and it scored very well.<BR>At the Grand Classic at Hickory Corners, my wife's Bentley was judged by a team that included three members of our home region who were good friends of our's. They found things wrong with the car that I didn't know about!<BR>If you show a Car at a CCCA National event, it will be judged by the rules. While I can't speak to what may have happened 40 years ago, but I can assure you that our current Judging system and Judges Accreditation program is taken quite seriously by our members.<BR>I hope this helps you feel more confident about having your car judged.<BR>Jon Lee

[1937hd45]

Jon, Thank you for putting that rumor to rest. You are the guy with the credentials to know what went on, glad to know everyone is on a level playing field, even if it takes four wheel chocks.

[Guest]

To 1937: While in Naples in March for the CCCA meet I attended with Eddy 33. All of the cars entered where judged and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Early that morning I waited 90 minutes in the lobby of the Inn on Fifth while Eddy 33 attended a judges meeting. I really don't think any car won it's class because of the person who owned the vehicle.

[Guest]

You people appear confused as to what we do at Grand Classic judging. IF a Grand Classic Judging meet is run correctly...there ARE NO "WINNERS". ALL cars in any given class CAN win 100 points...or some...or NONE.. THE SOLE OBJECTIVE of Grand Classic judging, is to encourage people to accurately respect the history of THEIR particular car, by returning it to ITS condition as it was when new. THAT is why it makes no sense to charge admission to the general public and clutter up a Grand Classic with non-CCCA members. Once you start charging the public money for an event, you OWE them something. You owe them a SHOW ! A Grand Classic is NOT a contest...it is NOT a show. At a Grand Classic ( again..assuming if it is run correctly ) each car entered...has only ONE competitor...ITSELF..as it was when new.<P>At a properly run Grand Classic Judging Event, one car in a give class might be stodgy dark-colored sedan, another might be a sparkling brightly colored and highly chromed touring car. Assuming EACH is correctly restored to reflect is OWN condition when new,both would receive the coveted 100 point score. We CAN and DO take off points for "over restoring" ! The general public would NOT understand this, and would want a "people's choice" class. What a layman thinks about our cars, and our judging, is irrelevant to our purpose (which, again, is to encourage HISTORICALLY ACCURATE restorations).<P>If you are asked to serve as a Judge at a Grand Classic...PLEASE...remember...you are NOT looking for "perfection", and the cars you judge are NOT competing against each other. AGAIN...they compete ONLY against themselves, as they were when new.<P>I have run, or helped run Grand Classics down thru the years, which has left me with "mixed emotions" about letting the public in. My own view is that the danger and disruption far outweigh any benefit to the Club.<P>I do not think the CCCA needs any more publicity. We have been so successful in educating the public as to the value of the concept of classic, that it is now difficult to find ANYTHING for sale that is not labled "classic". <P>I would much rather see our educational activities devoted INWARD, so that our present membership learns more about our traditional purpose. I should not have to keep explaining to CCCA membes what we do at a Grand Classic, and why it by nature is inherently different in concept from car shows that are designed to attract and please a paying and/or sponsor-financed public.<P><BR>Peter Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

[1937hd45]

Than you Peter, Guess I'll stick with AACA judging. No need to drill holes in my right cowl sheetmetal.

[Guest]

John Lee:<P>Of course you cant 'speak to what happened (at CCCA judging events) forty years ago....BUT I CAN. Please see my "post" above about CCCA judging, and how it differs from public "car show" events. Nothing has changed (except for a few minor technical details in administration)...THANK HEAVEN...!<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

BuickPlus makes some excellent points in his above "post" (see his of 7-04 @ 9:20 ).<P>He's right ! A '65 Mustang IS certainly as excitinga "crowd pleaser" as a '39 Cadillac 8 cyl. car ( if not more so...! ).<P>Of course the then-new Mustang was nothing more than the economy model Ford Falcon "dressed up" with cute sheet metal. Straight out of the parts-bin, it was and remains an attractive smashing success. By that point in our automotive history, even the cheap economy cars were very near the technical equal of the finest cars - you can get out on the highway and go just as fast, just as long, in a Mustang of ITS era, as you could with a "big" car.<P>As BuickPlus points out, a late 1930's Cad. V-8 just isnt that exciting, no matter WHAT condition.<P>And that is why we didn't allow them to particpate in Classic Car Club events until relatively recently. <P>That is NOT to say that the Cad. V-8 was a bad car. Of COURSE it was a superior car. The then recently introduced V-8 was vastly superior to the older-model V-8 it replaced. So superior, that it continued from its introduction (in '36 or '37) clear thru to the end of the 1940's; served our country well running wide open in TANKS !<P>The Cad V-8 that BuickPlus uses as an example of a relatively unexciting car, is an excellent example of why they stopped building classics - just look at the sales figures - by the end of the 1930's, the auto buying public bought TENS OF THOUSANDS of Cad. V-8's compared to the DOZENS of Cad. V-16's that were made. The ordinary car was improving each year, so that the differences in performance between the "classics" and the ordinary car were no longer as significant as they once had been.<P>The CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA did not care that a car is good, or even superior, or is "popular with the public" when we considered its application for "CLASSIC" status.<P>What we DID consider, is whether it was the "BEST of the best". <P>In the Cadillac line, as the late 1930's drew to a close, the "best of the best" was the V-16. Those of you who have been lucky enough to have worked on, owned, or even RIDDEN in a Cadillac V-16 ( THAT HAS BEEN PROPERLY MAINTAINED) know why it was considered a "classic" and why the Cadillac V-8 was not ( I am still a little jealous that my '38 Cad. V-16 was a "smoother" car than my Packard Twelve ! ).<P>As I noted in previous "posts", as the years came and went, and we brought the word "classic" to the consciousness of the old car buff, those with these "less than the best of the best" cars wanted to call their cars "classics". <P>When the eight cylinder Cadillac was proposed for membership, I recall an impassioned letter to the Classification Committe by an owner ( if memory serves, he owned a '41 Cadillac 60 Special Sedan - which just happens to be my FAVORITE car from the early 1940's).<P>His letter clearly laid out to the Classification Committee why it would DILLUTE our Club to allow these admittedly fine, superior, and stunning-appearing cars into CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA status. He noted the car was simply "too modern" in design and execution to comply with the definition of "classicism". <P>Unfortunately, he was correct..we already had enough people with cars like that like that who saw a chance to make some money off the term "classic", so he lost the argument...the rest is history. We got a LOT more members that way, and with it, a lot more people with ideas like we see in this chat room.<P>I am so shaken up and aggravated by all this...why...I think....I think....I will toss my latest BRITNEY SPEARS DANCE VIDEO back in my VCR....and watch something REALLY spectacular.....!<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

Peter:<P>Your posts are entertaining and seem to capture not too succinctly all that is wrong with the CCCA. In effect there is a vague concept out that about what a "Classic" car is and the attempts by you and some others in the CCCA to solidify it have simply alienated many antique car enthusiasts.<P>To hear you, the CCCA should really be the 12 and 16 cylinder club of America, that 8 cylinder cars are mere Classic wannabes that were only admitted reluctantly when a weak club decided to dilute the concept to scrounge up new members. What a bunch of nonsense!<P>Keep it up, Peter, if you get your way, it won't be long before CCCA declares V-12 Formal Sedans too much like funeral coaches and not representive of the "Classic Era". Yes, we really only want to honor the Dual Cowl Phaetons with custom body work, the very very best of the very best. Perhaps we should only consider those cars with a known "provenence" that were owned by very important people, movers and shakers of the classic era. We should not dilute the concept with production limosines and other excellent but otherwise "common man" cars. Leave it to the other clubs to honor those cars, the CCCA has more important business.<P>It is no surprise that CCCA has lost control of the term Classic. It has done so by neglecting to consider very important cars and eras while sticking to rigid notions about what a classic car is. What a self inflicted wound.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

Gee, I leave you guys alone for 24 hours and look at all the bandwidth you've used up...<BR> <BR>Among the many hats I wear in CCCA, is that of National Awards Chairman. My Committee oversees all CCCA Judging activities. The notion that CCCA judges the owner, not the car is simply incorrect. I won?t say that in 50 years, it has never happened, but in this regard, CCCA is certainly no worse than any other car club I?ve had experience with. Most car clubs have some people who would be better off not judging cars. <P>The Club has worked long and hard to establish a fair and accurate judging system. We are very big on making sure everything on your car works, and that it is authentic. To be judged, the car must appear on the judging field, and it must be thoroughly checked by a judging team who, guided by a Team Leader, work independently of each other. Cosmetic details of course are important, but I?ve seen many a ?trailer queen? get docked because the car didn?t start or run very well. Sometimes they lose serious points because some items on the car didn?t operate as they should, even though they may look great.<P>In the not too distant future, I plan to post our Judging Rules and a copy of the Judging form on our web site. This may dispel some rumors about our judging system. When you see it, you will note that one half of the entire form concerns itself with operation and appearance of mechanical items. The second half of the form concerns itself with appearance items on the car. Most judging teams take about 20 minutes to judge a car, sometimes more. That works out to about 1 1/3 man-hours checking each vehicle. Realistically, they may not catch every detail, but they do a pretty good job. Since we are a multi-marque club, it?s hard to be an expert on everything. When in doubt about something, the decision is always made in favor of the car. We?re not perfect. Sometimes we're perhaps too generous, but today?s cars that receive a CCCA First Place Award are indeed very fine vehicles.<P>In recent years, we have implemented a Judges Training and Accreditation Program, as well as a Tabulators Accreditation Program to help our members hone their skills. Judges are tracked by our National Head Judge, which allows us to monitor their performance on the Judging Field. As they work their way up through the ranks, they are awarded the titles of ?Apprentice Judge,? ?Accredited Judge? or ?Master Judge.? This ranking system allows our local Area Head Judges to pick teams who have proven track records. It seems to be working.<P>If you have any doubts about CCCA?s judging, I invite you to get involved in it and see for yourself. It?s fun too. You might even enjoy it.

[Guest]

Hi...BuickPlus<P>Your last "post" illustrates why I think we need to turn our educational efforts inward, and better educate our own members before we start worrying about the general public.<P>If you knew a bit more about our Club, and put a little less effort into being hostile, you'd know that virtually ALL of the "best of the best"...i.e. classic cars of the earlier part of the classic era, were powered by eight or even six cylinder motors. Whether we are talking about the Dusenberg, the Packard "De Lux Eight"...those marvelous "L" series Lincolns, etc, all those classics from the earlier period we call the "classic" era were eights - some even MONSTER six cylinder cars, such as the famous "Phantom" series Rolls Royces ( we did let into "classic" status those gutless little "20/25" Rolls Royces...but...what the heck...)<P>Of course there was tremendous technological advance during the classic era, so that the classics from the later part of the classic era are far better performers than the earlier ones. Depending on your preferences and needs, there is much to be found of interest at any point in the classic era. <P>Your hostility is limiting your focus. Please try and open your mind and dampen the anger.<P>Thanks<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

Peter: The CCCA will never be the small exclusive club that you would like it to be. Everything over time changes and evolves. If everyone in the CCCA where like you the club would wither on the vine. People like Eddy 33 are the reason I joined the club because someone showed me what the CCCA has to offer. All the people I talked to at the Naples meet where very nice and unasuming. Not one of them had the cocky abrasive attitude that you seem to have. In just about very post you voice somme type of disatisfaction with the CCCA, this grws very tiresome to me and alot of others. I would say that you have two choices 1. Use your stroke and influence with the national board and change things or 2. Withdraw your membership and leave the CCCA. It seems to me that you might educate your self first about all the True Classics instead of having so narrow a vision as to what a Classic is. To Mr. Conrad if you delete this post I will understand no hard feelings

[Guest]

For '53 Packard<P>I am still not quite sure precisely WHAT is bothering you and guys like BuickPlus, either about me, or what I have said AS AN INDIVIDUAL, about my views on CCCA practices and policy. <P>This wonderful new form of communication gives us a tremendous opportunity to expand our horizons and our knowledge; however, I dont know how ANY of us benefit if we focus on picking on each other.<P>Can you review with me PRECISELY which Rule(s, Reg(s, or policies of the CCCA "bother" you, and/or WHERE you feel my analysis of some technical issue is leading you astray ?<P>I think part of our problem is "mis-communication". Yes, our language and speech patterns ARE evolving, ant not necessarily for the better.<P>And I agree with you, '53...more and more these days, we find larger numbers of people at CCCA events who really dont like the positions of the CCCA, and probably WILL, eventually, change them to suit their needs. Such is life !<P>An excellent example how the evolution of language causes confusion in here, is found in BuickPlu's above post, in which he claims CCCA policies are alienating antique car owners.<P>Of course an "antique" car, to BE an antique car, has to....well...(this is really tough..guys...) BE AN ANTIQUE CAR ! To be an antique car, it would have to have antique features. How do you tell a car is an "antique". Well....does it have two-wheel external contracting brakes..? That's one good way of separating ANTIQUE cars from the later cars of the VINTAGE era.. Does it have carbide / accetylene head-lamps ? There's another way (by around 1918-1920 cars started getting on-board electrical systems, so clearly, the VINTAGE era was on its way). <P>BUT, even assuming you LIKE the word "antique", and WANT to apply it to ANY old car that pleases you ( or that you want to sell.....) it dosn't change the fact, that ANY car from the antique or vintage eras has NO place within the CCCA format.<P>Does that make us "bad guys" ! Hardly - many CCCA members, myself included, own, operate, and enjoy all manner of wierd machinery. As I noted in a previous "post", I recently took my amphibious aircraft to a CCCA judging event ! (parked it outside - of course I didn't ask to PARTICIPATE in a CCCA event in a NON classic...!)<P>Let's share our enjoyment in the particular kind of machinery that the CCCA was formed to focus on. If I can drive my '36 American La France fire engine to a CCCA event, you can drive your '53 Packard to one (heck...I had one too...and I did...!). <P>But please dont ask to PARTICIPATE in a CCCA event in a non-classic - once you get there, PARK IT, and ask ANY of us for a ride in a REAL classic. I think if you give us a chance, you will find we look foward to sharing our interest in classic cars, and what the Club is all about. <P>But try and ask SPECIFIC questions about issues & technical matters relating to the CCCA. Merely expressing a general dis-satisfaction with the fact that some people have something bigger, faster, longer, and/or better than you have, isn't going to help us learn much.<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

Without your endless chatter Petey there would be absolutely no postings on this forum, keep up the good work! Time to go mow the lawn with my CLASSIC Craftsmen lawnmower. <P>I have a question? does any hydrostatic drive tractor qualify as Classic in your books? What are the qualifications for acceptance into the Classic car club for tractors? I think we need to resolve this question so other members who own inferior equipment will not pollute our club and dilute our membership with non-classic yard equipment?! <P>Since you are the self proclaimed expert on everything CLASSIC I would like you to head our commitee with the goal of making it so exclusive that only a priveleged lucky few will be accepted who have inherited their yard equipment or purchased them for peanuts during the golden era. So what do you say? are you up to the task? Your first task would be to define this era and the equipment that would be included, second you will need to define the inferior equipment that will be excluded forever.

[Guest]

Well, here goes. I'm going to try to clarify some half-truths. Wish me luck.<BR>Yes, there are "Winners" at a CCCA National meet. In fact there are 1st, 2nd and 3rd place awards in all divisions except for Premier (1st only) and Senior Emeritus (Class award). The criteria is published in your Handbook and Member's Roster on page 9, if you might like to review the class structure and scoring requirements.<BR>Yes, the standard in CCCA Judging is "As New" and some cars do get "Over-Restored". There is no specific category for deducting for over-restoration. If a Judge believes that a component on a car is not correct (which could include over-restoration in whatever form it could take) an appropriate deduction could be taken in a specific category. Or not. <BR>As current policies stand, CCCA National Meets (Grand Classics and Annual Meetings) are not advertized to the general public and there has never been a plan to attract a "Paying crowd". Enthusiasts who may not happen to belong to the CCCA are often invited to a National Meet by the local hosts, either individually or as Club groups. These are people who may not be CCCA members but have an interest in cars of the Classic Era,and may belong to clubs that accept cars we call Full Classic, such as Cadillac LaSalle Club, Pierce-Arrow Society, Rolls-Royce Owner's Club and others. The Official Policy, currently, is that a Spopnsoring Region may not charge an admission fee to a CCCA member for the show (Yes it is a show, and the cars are on the showfield) itself. Fees may be charged for events, meals and other activities. There are exceptions, sort of. For instance at Michigan Grand Classics held at Greenfield Village there is an entry fee charged by the Village itself. At such venues as Greenfield Village or the recent Grand Experience at The Gilmore/CCCA Museum in Hickory Corners, the general public is permitted to view the Show. These folks are there becaue of their interest in our cars. It's not like they wandered into a shopping mall parking lot. They do not run the event or have any power to insist that we change the way the Club runs the event. In my experience at many Grand Classics and Annual Meetings, the public participation does not present any danger or cause any disruption. On the contray, I have found that these folks, who have an interest in seeing fine cars, are generally very polite and cooperative. And the Club does get new members from these activities.<BR>This has been discussed as one of the best ways to encourage new members in the CCCA. If we do not encourage new members, there would eventually be no membership to cater to as has been suggested. If one reads the CCCA mission statement as published in the Handbook and Directory, it states that the Club was founded for "the development, publication and interchange of technical, historical and other information for and among members and other persons who own or are interested in..."<BR>Continuing with this Mission Statement, one will notice that no where is there a definition of a Classic Car as "the Best of the Best". What it does state is "fine or unusual foreign or domestic motor cars built between and including the years 1925 and 1948, but including cars built before 1925 that are virtually identical to 1925 Full Classics and distinguished for their respective fine design, high engineering standards and superior workmanship." That does not say anything about a 1947 Cadillac 62 sedan being any less a Classic Car than, say, a 1938 Packard 12, as a random example. Neither does this infer that my 1926 Bentley 3 Litre is any more Classic than, maybe, a 1938 Packard 12. I think I have made that point.<BR>I must say that Mr Hartmann's verbosity is entertaining and it certainly does present the opportunity to clarify some Club policies that may otherwise be overlooked. Thanks.<BR>Jon Lee

[1937hd45]

Jon, I trust that the Senior Emeritus Class Award is for a car, not an individual.

[Guest]

For John Lee:<P>Thank you for posting your very interesting "issues oriented" article (see his entry just above). I have run or helped run Grand Classics in both secluded places the public had no access to, and in public places where we were "swarmed". <P>My primary concern as an event organizer/helper with public events, is that once you open a private event to the general public (especially if you charge them a fee), you raise liability and logistics issues which present additional burdens on the event organizers. If your Region can get enough people to help staff such an endeavor, more power to you..!<P>My second reason, is noted previously - the public has a RIGHT to be entertained at a public car show, and often this takes the place of "PEOPLE'S CHOICE" awards. As many of you noted in here, while INDIVIDUAL members such as myself love to "spout off" as to why this or that "classic" is the best thing since they invented girls, the Club as a CLUB does not choose between cars or make preferences, once they are accepted as "classics".<P>But you have TOTALLY mis-understood our Club's judging function, if you think there are "winners" in the conventional sense. I have helped run CCCA judging events where we have had NO "winners" in any given class, or TWO or THREE or even MORE "winners" in given classes. In one Grand Classic I helped judge at, my recollection is we had THREE 100 point cars in one class, and several others, in other classes, along with several matching "high point" cars in another. <P>Try to focus on what we do at a CCCA Judging Event, and you will see why it really isn't technically accurate to say we have "winners". Again, at a Grand Classic, your car has NO competition, and cannot "win" as against any other car there. Its ONLY competition...is...itself, as it was when new. A dull, boring, dark-colored Formal Sedan like mine, could, if authentically restored, get the same 100 point car as some flashy open sports model. THAT is what THIS particular Club is all about - historical authenticity.<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

For UNREGIS LUV.<P>On your offer to set me up as "dictator" of a new CLASSIC TRACTOR CLUB...<P>Buddy...you got a name..? I refuse to talk to people who dont have names. On second thought...your offer is too tempting...<P>I hereby ACCEPT your offer, on condition I get DICATORIAL powers over this new Club we are going to run together. <P>Now...as to the minimum qualifications....NO tractor will be considered unless it has a video player so I can watch my favorite BRITNEY SPEARS Dance Videos while judging the damn thing.<P>We have to have minimum judging standards...minimum 2 points off if painted with a brush that leaves bristles stuck in the paint.<P>At LEAST five points off if the damn thing wont start.<P>TEN points off if the owner kills some parent's kid for some minor annoyance, such as dropping a sugar-snow cone on the new upholstery.<P>The engines in these things MUST have at least SEVENTEEN cylinders, and be "in line" engines.<P>If the white-walls are painted on, bug spots and fresh dog dropping marks will be allowed without point deductions, provided they were aquired within 15 months of the event.<P>Any vehicle parked within 100 yards of the event, that does NOT have " PACKARD TWELVE" on the hub-caps, will be immediately CRUSHED and sent to Yugoslavia, where they KNOW how to make fine cars........!<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

[Guest]

Expert???????? Someone's got to do it!!! I'd say Pete is doing a fine job of it too.<P>And he doesnt even like 56 Packards. But noones perfect. (except maybe me).

[Guest]

Every circus needs a clown. Too bad this one isn't very funny.

[Guest]

Mr Hartmann,<BR>Maybe we are splitting hairs on what is or is not a winner, but let me assure you that I am quite aware of what the intent and purpose is of our CCCA judging. The base line for all judging consideration is "as new". On the judging form Excellent is noted thereon as "as new" No Deduction. <BR>The statement you have made that the only competition a car has in CCCA judging is itself is not quite correct. In the Primary and Senior Division, as you are aware, the minimum score for First Place is 95 points. All cars scoring 95 points or over and within 2 points of the highest score in the class qualify for multiple first place awards. Consequently if your car scores 100 points in Primary Production 1937-1939 and my car scores 97.5 in the same class, even though my score is over the 95 minimum it will not be a first place award winner. Following it along further, if you have that 100 point car, my car is a second place winner at 97.5, Buick37's car scores 97 which earns a Third place award and Chuck Conrad's car is judged at 96.5. Chuck's car, at a score above the minimum for a first place award, does not win anything. Each car is judged on its own merits, based on that "as new" standard, but when the winners are announced at the Awards Banquet, there are very definitly winners in any sense of the word. In the Real Life Grand Classic World a phenomenon has also developed over the years where we actually see the evidence of a perceived fourth level of winner, that of the 100 point winner. Please don't ask me to justify that one, as it seems to me that a First Place award winner at a National Meet ought to be just that. <BR>You, as a long time CCCA member surely will recall the many years that the Club awarded an overall Grand Classic Winner chosen from the highest scoring cars at that year's National Meets. While that no longer is applicable, we now award, at the Annual Meeting, the Roy Warshawsky Award for the best car at the National Meeting. This is a very much sought after trophy and inevitably is contested among the 100 point cars at the event. Having been involved for a couple of years in making this award, I can assure you that it is "won" by the Award Winner.<BR>Just one more piece of errata, on page 9 of your Handbook and Member's Roster, within Procedures - National Judging Meets, the words winner, winning, win and won appear 23 times. There are winners in CCCA judging, as my wife will attest with her 1st place award winning 1938 Bentley.<BR>Thanks,<BR>Jon Lee