QUESTION

[Guest]

You are RIGHT about the WARSHAWSKY trophy. I just looked it up. That came in, around '93... confirms that I am getting "out of date" ... that the "thinking" of the old timers, is not in step with how the Club is evolving. I have not been active in Club management for some years now.<P>The idea of a "best" classic was traditionally alien to our Club. As a Club, we encourage the preservation of ALL classics, and all classics, if properly restored, can get a 100 point score. And as you apparently agree..scoring is still designed NOT to be "competitive" as between participants - which is how we DIFFER from the "show" organizations, where the objective is to entertain the public.<P>We had in the So. Calif. Region for some years (he may still be there)...a fellow who had two just about NEW early 1930's Cadillacs. Not restored...just about NEW. When NEW, they were NOT perfect. I used those cars as examples, when I was trying to explain how a judge should evaluate cars and assign points. Sadly, as less and less people are educated in what this Club SHOULD be all about, we see more and more less than perfect classics, get less than perfect scores. This is NONSENCE. It may be possible, under some circumstances, NOT to take off points for a car that is OVER restored. But "over restoration" and "competition" BEWTEEN cars is something that, as you point out, is infecting our Club, and already has turned us into a bunch of "show goers", rather than auto enthusiasts who actually DRIVE our cars.<P>Someone once told me, while I was drooling over a fully restored version of my own car, that it would cost him FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS to take it out and drive it the way I drive mine.<P>At the moment, my '38 Packard Twelve is still covered with dust...( no...not from dis-use....I was pounding the crap out of it over our dirt roads )....so much so, it is hard to see the "white" of the white-walls thru the mud. DAMN...that was FUN...!<P>I once borrowed someone's beat up bumper, put a tow-hitch on it, and put it on my Packard Twelve. Then I put my modern car on a trailer, hitched up, and went to a CCCA event. I told my buddies..who were on the floor laughing..."but I thought we were supposed to "trailer" our cars....!"<P>But again, you are correct...we are getting more and more what I feel are "alien" ideas, as our culture evolves. And that is the way it should be - let's face it..the whole IDEA of the original classics..is alien to our present culture. <P>We have had, for some years now, the idea of a "best prepared classic for Caravan" but that had NOTHING to do with the car itself...this was more of a "gag" than anything else (guys came prepared with all kinds of spare parts and tools)..whole idea was to encourage people to bring out their cars and DRIVE em.<P>Now...back to my BRITNEY SPEARS DANCE VIDEOS<P>PFH

[Ed Miller]

Peter, please send me one of those dance videos...and don't tell my wife.

[Guest]

Eddie....<P>The price is VERY high...you have to come visit and take a drive in my Packard Twelve....AND listen to me tell you how great REAL classics are.....!<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

Hey PH<P>I'm surprised you're not watching Mona Lisa videos. I would think Britney Spears would be a bit too streamlined for your tastes. Seems to me her fenders blend in with her hood, her lines aren't really all that classic. Sexy, yes, classy, no.<P>Glad to hear you are not completely rusted out anyway...<P>Bill

[Guest]

Hey..BuickPlus:<P>I really resent your above post - why dont you just come out and say it...you think I am a STUPID, SENILE, OBNOXIOUS UGLY OLD FOOL...<P>Well..you are a damn liar...I am NOT UGLY..<BR>( well...all right..so denying is a "stretch"..but my dog thinks I am cute..)...!<P>PFH

[Guest J446]

I recently bought a Duesenberg at auction and was amazed to find how over restored it was and how little it had been driven since it was restored. It has taken a lot of work to make it driveable and undo the over restoration. All cars were made to be driven. Road grime can be cleaned off and will never hurt a car,painting over head bolts so they look pretty but can't be torqued will.

[Guest]

Hi...J446....you lucky devil...!<P>Before I start another tirade, should you have technical issues with your "Dusie"...may I suggest Randy Ema of So. Calif. He is a hell of a nice guy; my only quarrel with him is he is a bit too modest - you meet him personally and you will have to FORCE it out of him that he is probably the world's LEADING technical expert on that marque.<P>I disagree with you about driving "over-restored" cars. So damn many building supply trucks on the road all the time - bits of gravel, cement...gawd...I just got another stone pit on my nice new Toyota today. I did a "factory grade" re-paint on my Packard Twelve some years back (took the car apart - no masking tape...! hand rubbed nitro cell lacquer, etc.....put it all together....wasn't five minutes on the Hollywood Freeway before I had some bug and pebble chips...!).<P>I have NO quarrel with 100 point cars. I think it is GREAT that a guy cares enough about the history of the classic era, that he is willing to commit his time, money, and energy, to faithfully reproducing a piece of history. Dedication like that SHOULD be kept protected in a trailer until ready for display !<P>Let me repeat the warning I gave above..I had a well-known restoration expert tell me something I really do believe to be true...you take a really sharp 100 pointer out on the highway and start beating on it...and in a half hour you may well do FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS DAMAGE ! <P>But whichever use you put to that thing...be assured I am jealous - damn are they great cars...!<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest J446]

Hi Pete<BR>Thanks for the contact. Lucky is the operative word. I realize I'm very lucky to be able to collect the cars I own. I have great respect for anyone who owns any of these old cars. What ever makes one happy is fine with me but I think using cars keeps them fit and most importantly is very enjoyable. At he high end of the market cars that have "patina" traces of history are selling for much more that overrestored cars.<BR>Best<BR>Jim

[Guest]

J446:<P>What in heck is the matter with you...you just "dont get it"...you are out of step with the modern collector car hobby...<P>Let me explain....you are NOT supposed to CARE about your car as a car...gauche...bet you one of those wierdos who actually LIKES the durn thing for what it is as a mechanical device... Bet you are one of those wierd types who actually crawls under it, gets your hands dirty actually enjoying the technology of that era... <P>I can just see it now...after a nice morning's drive, you show up at a get-to-gether of "car show" types...they take one look at your car...a little grease on the grease fittings, a few "bug burns" on the fender paint...and they laugh at you... (but I bet YOU are the guy with the widest smile.....!)

[Guest]

Hey...wait just a second here...I wonder if I have met this J446 guy....say....J446...do I know you...have we met...? (if this guy is who I think he is, this is ONE situation where I would have to respect his privacy and desire to keep his name out of our "free for alls"....!<P>Just for fun, J 446.. answer two questions for me. <P>1) Can you hear airplane noise from your shop?<P>2) Are you good at cleaning out lower radiator hoses on ALF's..?<P>Pete Hartmnann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

[Guest J446]

Pete<BR>You're right about the way I am but I don't think we've ever met. Most of my cars are 1960 race cars: A Ford GT-40MK-IV, a Ferrari P4, and a Lola T70. Those are street registered as well and I drive them all. The Dusey is a mechanical work of art. How many of todays cars self lubricate their chaissis every 75 miles? Unless you get your hands dirty or break,mount,and balance your own tires as you talked about in another thread you'll never know for sure.<BR>Jim

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

I think actually working on your cars is one of the most rewarding ways to enjoy this hobby. It gives you a great insight into the technology of the era. Some of the things these early designers did are pretty amazing.<P>There is also a great deal of personal satisfaction when you actually FIX something! Even though it's messy, dirty and sweaty, it's also a lot of fun.<P>I certainly have no quarrel with anyone who uses a restoration shop. I have on occasion for tasks that were simply beyond my abilities, or just too time consuming. We should all be happy that this industry exists.<P>When I was a kid, my Dad collected old cars. He worked on them himself, with a little "help" from me. The standards were quite different then: Anything to get the "old girl" running. Empty beer cans made excellent shims and bailing wire was the order of the day for holding together almost anything. Your reward at the end of the day was going for a ride in the car. At age ten, I probably looked like the tar baby on most weekends. Grease was a lot of fun. Just think what it would have been like if they had duct tape in 1957!<P>Those were great times. You should try it.

[Guest]

It demeans our club for our own members to personally criticise other members or to criticise their automobiles. Lets try to keep these discussions on track and on a more civil plane (whether it is said in jest or seriously).<p>[ 07-11-2002: Message edited by: JOHN MERENESS ]

[Guest]

Mr. Mereness: If your remarks where directed at me please say so don't beat around the bush. If you want to take it up personally with me fine. Contact Mr. Conrad and I will give him my email address.

[Guest J446]

Dear Chuck<BR>A friend of mine was like your dad. He was head mechanic for Ferrari at Riems when Pedro Rodriques drove into the pits with a ruptured brake line. There was no spare in the pits so he ran to a nearby farm house,ripped the washing machine off the wall and grabbed the hot water hose which he used to get Rodriques going. Later Rodriques came back into the pits claiming the car was overheating. My friend put a screwdriver through the water tempertature gauge:"Now it's not." He said. Those were, and these are, the good old days...<BR>Best<BR>Jim

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

Jim.<P>That is a wonderful story! <P>It's true, back in the 50's and 60's people would do anything to just get the car to run. <P>I still have the 1912 Buick that was my father's. It's the antique car I grew up with, and probably the origimal reason for my continued involvement in this hobby. We considered ourselves very lucky to go much more than about 50-60 miles without getting a flat tire. The car was regularly driven all over New England, so flats were a common problem. I remember one weekend we DIDN'T have a flat. It seemed like something was missing....<P>My, how times change.

[Guest]

J446:<P>Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you have such a fabulous collection, especially the race cars. I remember my youth hanging around Watkins Glen, Bridgehampton and even lowly Lime Rock just to get a glimpse of a McLaren, Lola T-70, Ford GT 40 or Porsche Carrera 6. Fortunately, I managed to see quite a few up close and personal in the tech garages when you could get a pass.<P>It is hard to imagine these cars on the street, but good for you for keeping them on the road and running. They are still so delightful to look at, I think they have stood the test of time well. What a sight and sound. I am grateful to the vintage race folks for keeping them on the tracks also.<P>These race cars are not Full Classics, but some day perhaps the CCCA can come up with a race car division. Probably not in my lifetime, but you never know.

[Guest J446]

If any of you are going to the AACA fall meet at Purchase,NY in August I'll be there with my Duesenberg. Please say hello. If you click on the following link you'll find a photo of my Ford which I drove to a show at Lime Rock. <A HREF="http://www.glickenhaus.com/images/mvc-229x.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://www.glickenhaus.com/images/mvc-229x.jpg</A> <BR>Best<BR>Jim

[Guest]

To further assist J-446 in straightening out any authentisity issues with Duesenbergs, I also recommend Randy Ema, of Orange California, who helped me out several times with J-330 (as well as more than a few Auburn problems). Additionally, I also recommend Brian Joseph, of Troy Michigan. Both are invaluable to the ACD marque.

[Guest J446]

Thanks John<BR>I have contacted Brian re getting my fuel gauge working and finding some tools for the wheels. Do you have any experience with the self lube system? I've got it to work but it seems to dump a lot of oil over everything and on to the ground. This weekend I'm going to take it on a long drive as I think I got it running fairly well.<BR>Best<BR>Jim

[Guest]

Dear J-446<P>The oiling system is a venture that I did not explore with the Duesenberg (and it was disabled). I believe you did stumble on its main fault. The fluid leaks and I just took the approach to oil on my terms - not the cars terms. I always had oil going everywhere on the Auburns and many times grabbed the frame rails to pull myself under and found quite a mess (ask around - maybe somebody is playing with a lube product that is thicker, but will not clog the tubing). I cannot help you with tools, though J-330 (a Murphy conv. coupe which is now in Texas) had a complete set, including a fabulous jam packed tool role (if it was not stolen during its auction circuit days) that at great expense would be a worthy club reproduction project. Cover your carpet (or remove it) until you are at a comfort level that the gas gauge will not leak at a fitting or w/in the gauge (nobody likes to see a big stain where the fluid leaked).<P>[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: JOHN MERENESS ]<p>[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: JOHN MERENESS ]

[Guest]

For JOHN MERENES:<P>John...I suggest you are "way off base" in worrying about some of the guys having what I suggest to you..should be considered nothing more than a wild sense of humor. I presume you are referring to "53 packard's" ( I think his name is John Shinerman..? ?) calling my car a "rolling chicken-cop". <P>I think '53 's analogy is correct...and gives us an excellent opportunity to discuss and learn more about the classic era, and what it was, and what it was not.<P>By the time the classic era ended and the stream-lined era began (roughly late 1930's) car body construction evolved from LITERALLY rolling chicken-coops, to the all steel robot-welded bodies we have today. It is important to understand how correct '53 is, and WHY he is correct. The FACT is, the classic era was a DIFFERENT era, and understanding the technology of that very different era is important to the safe enjoyment of what the classic car is all about.<P>I see from the Club Directory, you are lucky enough to have my favorite car from 1941..(Cad. Fleetwood "60 Special".). If memory serves, there was still a bit of wood in the rear trunk-frame, but otherwise, that is essentially a MODERN stream-lined car in its body construction...light-years ahead of my Packard Twelve of only few years earlier. <P>I trust you are aware that until relatively recently, a '41 Cad was NOT considered a "classic", becuase it was too "new" in concept AND execution. <P>John is right...do you know that the wire bracing in the roof of most classic-era "composite" (meaning bits of wood and steel nailed and glued together) really IS "chicken coop wire"..!<P>I agree with you PERSONAL attacks have no place in a chat-room which SHOULD be a place where we can share technical info. about this odd era of cars we call "classics". But as far as teasing each other about their respective choice in cars...LIGHTEN UP ! This is for both education AND for fun. Let's see what we can all learn from each other, and spend less time looking for flaws in personalities. There are plenty of flaws in the classics themselves...THAT is where I believe we should devote our energies.<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest J446]

Dear John<BR>Spoke with Brian. He was very helpfull. He has the wrenches I need. He also explained the fuel gauge. It's a little more involved than I thought so I'm going to drive it over the summer and fix that this winter. He explained the self oiler. It works every time the car is started (when the odometer advances) and for a longer period every 75 miles. I'm going to try and brew a thicker oil that will still flo through the system but won't clog the lines.<BR>Best<BR>Jim<P>Peter<BR>I enjoy your posts and agree with you.

[Guest]

Dear Peter and Packard53<P>Thank you very much for your replys. Please keep in mind that this is for the world to view. Also, I have heard wind that the problem may result in shutting down the site. However, I will not comment any further than to say "enough said on the topic."<P>As to the 1941 Cadillac 60 Special, I bought it at age 14 (in 1979) and really love the car. It is still mostly original and frequently used as a pattern for others restoring their 41s. It is painted black, w/black wheels, silver pinstripe, off white flat woven wool interior (w/a gold and blue fleck in it), tan wool carpets, and a mediun blue flat woven wool on the seats (w/white piping). I have never seen another w/the interior combination, though everyone loves the fact that it is not a cave inside. I have the 60 Special as only the 60 Special and the 75 series were classics when I joined the CCCA (plus it is really a good looking car). As to structural wood, it has wood around the rear window frame, a plywood package shelf, and sits on wood sills (including sills under door caps). It also has wooden seat frames. As to that 38 Packard Twelve Formal Sedan, it is a very fine car (when new and now).

[Guest]

Dear J-446<P>I started a discussion on Bijur lubrication systems on the technical page.<p>[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: JOHN MERENESS ]

[Guest]

For those who do not have reseach access. <BR>J-446 is a truly fabulous Franay bodied convertible sedan, built originally for Queeen Marie of Yugoslavia. It is one of two Franay built Duesenbergs (the other being a short (close) coupled sedan - very sporty).