'29 DA vacuum tank fittings

[Bob Zetnick]

Does anyone have a closeup photo of the fittings on their vacuum tank? I've got a cast 'Y' one that came w/ the car (minus vacuum tank...probably for a Kingston) and a brass elbow one attached to a straight fitting that came w/ my Stewart Warner tank...the 'Y' fitting seems more appropriate as the 2 "legs would work for both the tank and windshield wiper....I guess I could put a 'T' on the elbow version. Anyway, may sound picky, but I'd like to do as nice a job as possible and can't find closeup photos of the fittings. Also, both fittings have factory holes in them which seems weird on a vacuum system. Thanks in advance.

[Bob Zetnick]

These are the 2 fittings. The one on the left is the one that came w/ the car, but the vacuum tank wasn't there...the one on the right came w/ a Stewart Warner tank I bought at a swap meet in 1977...I think I'm going to use the one on the right and attach a T to it for both the manifold and the wiper motor. If you notice the holes (not at the fitting ends) ...I thought those were weird on a vacuum system. I found this quote from a May, 2011 post so I guess those added holes are supposed to be there.

 

"The Stewart Warner vacuum tank uses a cantilever style mechanism. When the inner tank fills with fuel the float triggers the mechanism and a needle seats into the bottom of this fitting to block off the vacuum. When the float lowers to a certain point the mechanism is triggered to open the vacuum. If the system was totally closed the engine vacuum would be sucking on the needle and prevent it from releasing so the small hole you have pointed out is designed to relieve the vacuum."

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Bob-

Sorry for a late reply, but others may be interested in these magical, mystical devices they called "vacuum tank amplifiers".

 

1929 DA's came with the Kingston style of vacuum tank. But as we all know, there are more exceptions than rules.  Sometime late in 1928, in the Victory Six line, Chrysler switched from the Stewart-Warner to the Kingston brand.  The Kingston carried on into the Dodge DA line and beyond. Ultimately, they switched over to mechanical pumps (in 1931, I think).

 

Here are a couple of photos I found in the archives re: Kingston vacuum tank amplifiers. The last photo is my tank and has mostly original fittings and some non original fittings.  I have the originals, but the threads were buggered. In my book, anything fuel or vacuum related must not leak!

 

Credits for the remaining photos are non-existant; the added captions are mine.  If anyone recognizes these photos, please speak up so I can give you proper credit. The advertising brochure is obviously from the manufacturer!

 

Now, if you really want to go into depth on these vacuum tank amplifiers,  check out John Bittence’s VICTORY SIX manual:  

 

See Section I of Book 5 for information on Vacuum tanks in general. 

See Pages I-15 and I-16 for specific details about the “vacuum amplifier”. 

 

Bittence, as usual, includes lots of juicy tidbits and plenty of close-up photos. Many of the photos include precise dimensions. If you haven’t already done so, purchase this “must-have” 5-Star CD-ROM.  You will learn a ton about late 20’s-early 30’s Dodges, guaranteed. I don’t have John’s permission to reprint these pages, so just buy his CD!  BTW, I have no commercial interest in John's CD-- I am just an enthusiastic reader.

 

Joe

Edited September 18, 2015 by idrjoe_sandiego (see edit history)

[Bob Zetnick]

Thanks for the info. Joe! I've read many posts about the Kingston vs. the Stewart tanks, but didn't know which tank was on what models. You've cleared that up for me and my '29 DA should have a Kingston tank on it. The original fitting on my car is the "amplifier" and the other fitting I see on Stewart - Warner tank photos online. I bought my Stewart (there was a 50's electric pump on my car when I bought it and vacuum tank was missing) tank at a swap meet in the 70s and just now putting it on. I haven't had much luck finding a Kingston tank and hear they are rather rare...I did see a restored one on eBay a few months ago, but at about $400 I just couldn't afford it. Again, thanks for clearing this up for me!

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Hi Bob -

I agree with your plan- go with what you have. $400 is crazy-money for a tin can. I am sure you have bigger fish to fry!   If the purist in you can't live with it, have patience. Another Kingston will come along at a much lower price.  

 

I also found some fittings that might serve as a substitute replacement for a broken amplifier (only in form, not in function). See photos.

 

One other comment  re: more exceptions than rules.  I mentioned above that Chrysler switched over to mechanical pumps in 1931 (John, correct me if this is wrong).

 

However, on another thread long ago, I posted pics of a major exception...a 1929 DA engine with a mechanical fuel pump!  I have seen two of these, and both were for export. As Doug always says, "no two are alike."

[stakeside]

Bob-

Sorry for a late reply, but others may be interested in these magical, mystical devices they called "vacuum tank amplifiers".

 

1929 DA's came with the Kingston style of vacuum tank. But as we all know, there are more exceptions than rules.  Sometime late in 1928, in the Victory Six line, Chrysler switched from the Stewart-Warner to the Kingston brand.  The Kingston carried on into the Dodge DA line and beyond. Ultimately, they switched over to mechanical pumps (in 1931, I think).

 

Here are a couple of photos I found in the archives re: Kingston vacuum tank amplifiers. The last photo is my tank and has mostly original fittings and some non original fittings.  I have the originals, but the threads were buggered. In my book, anything fuel or vacuum related must not leak!

 

Credits for the remaining photos are non-existant; the added captions are mine.  If anyone recognizes these photos, please speak up so I can give you proper credit. The advertising brochure is obviously from the manufacturer!

 

Now, if you really want to go into depth on these vacuum tank amplifiers,  check out John Bittence’s VICTORY SIX manual:  

 

See Section I of Book 5 for information on Vacuum tanks in general. 

See Pages I-15 and I-16 for specific details about the “vacuum amplifier”. 

 

Bittence, as usual, includes lots of juicy tidbits and plenty of close-up photos. Many of the photos include precise dimensions. If you haven’t already done so, purchase this “must-have” 5-Star CD-ROM.  You will learn a ton about late 20’s-early 30’s Dodges, guaranteed. I don’t have John’s permission to reprint these pages, so just buy his CD!  BTW, I have no commercial interest in John's CD-- I am just an enthusiastic reader.

 

Joe

Good to see picture of tank with yellow body. This a match to my Model P3c Steward tank on my 29 DB series "E" truck with a DA 6. See attached pictures. I have these questions.

1) Is there an instruction manual availiable for this tank?

2) Is a replaement float available?

3) Are these connections correct on top?

4) What is your model # ?

[Bob Zetnick]

Stakeside, Joe can answer these questions better than I as he has a Kingston tank, but it looks like you don't have that angled connection fitting on top he calls an "amplifier" .....it's shown in the old ad and in his photos above....also, can you get your current float soldered? My Stewart Warner was and seems to work fine.

[stakeside]

BOB, Does your tank have the smaller diameter top as mine. It is stamped as a Stewart tank. There is a larger top on the other Stewart tanks I've seen on other Dodges and the internals are quite different.

Note the internal pieces are minimal on mine. I believe this to be an original tank for my 29DA truck. Were the amplifiers an optional add on peice?

[Bob Zetnick]

Stakeside, I've already got an "amplifier" on my Stewart...if you look at my 2nd post the one on the left was for my original Kingston and the one on the right came from my Stewart.....my Stewart does not have a smaller top on it....I do not know if the Stewart is original for your truck or not, Joe set me straight on what my 4-dr. should have; a Kingston. The amplifier according to his original ad looks like it came w/ the tank and not an option.

[stakeside]

Stakeside, I've already got an "amplifier" on my Stewart...if you look at my 2nd post the one on the left was for my original Kingston and the one on the right came from my Stewart.....my Stewart does not have a smaller top on it....I do not know if the Stewart is original for your truck or not, Joe set me straight on what my 4-dr. should have; a Kingston. The amplifier according to his original ad looks like it came w/ the tank and not an option.

Thanks Bob.

Evidently there are many models of the Stewart Vacuum tank.

The journey of discovery continues.

[idrjoe_sandiego]

OK sorry guys.  Back again with some more info. WAY TOO MUCH INFO!

 

 

First,  Stakeside is correct, there are many Stewart-Warner tanks.

 

Tom Turner, in an article in the DB news (April-May 1998), enlightens us with the following data:

 

At car #A308122 (April 10, 1925) a change was made to a larger capacity vacuum tank, Model 216-H (Stewart) .  

 

A larger capacity tank, mounted on the firewall, was specified for the earliest six-cylinder cars, Senior, Standard, and Victory. According to Stewart literature this was the Model 216-AF. All parts are identical and interchangeable with 216-H except for the outer tank—or shell—which is 2-inches longer.

 

Late 1928, the venerable Stewart tank was replaced with a Kingston unit with a cork float.

 

At last in 1930, all Dodge Brothers models switched to the camshaft-driven diaphragm fuel pump, developed by AC Spark Plug Co. 

  (note: earlier posts I said 1931- wrong- it was in 1930).

 

    **** I am still looking for a definitive model # used on 1929 Dodges and trucks. ****

 

To answer your question about amplifiers as an option… Yes, apparently you could use the Kingston  amplifier on other brands of vacuum tanks.  Read on:

 

Dodge Service Bulletins discuss Kingston tanks and amplifiers (bulletins signed by H. M. Wiegand, Director of Service at Dodge Brothers). Kingston  replaced Stewart vacuum tanks late in 1928 on the Victory.  Quoting from one of  Wiegand’s Dodge Brothers Service Bulletin:

 

According to the Kingston manual, “The booster may be used on any vacuum tank which is operated by suction from the intake manifold to increase its efficiency on long, steel hills. Under no condition should the hole in the vacuum unit booster be made larger or smaller as it is very accurately calibrated to regulate the vacuum necessary to effectively operate the equipment on our cars.”   

 

Next question was about a manual. I have not found the “Kingston manual”  referred to in the Service Bulletin. I have some Stewart manuals, however. One example is attached here in PDF.

 

When I reviewed my photo archive back from 2008 of the restoration of my 1929 DA Phaeton, I realized I gave you some bad info. Actually, I had two tanks from two 1929 DA’s.  I remember now trying to sort out the details. I ran into the same problems Stakeside and Bob discovered. There apparently are original DA’s with Stewart tanks and there are some with Kingston. I believe that they probably used both, depending on availability. I have seen so many DA’s with either tank. See photos of examples and a reproduction top for a Victory.

 

To add more confusion, the cars made for export (like mine) had even more variation. My 1929 DA engine # in the low H-60000’s had a mechanical fuel pump!

 

As I now recall, both my tanks were in rough shape. I decided to fix both up until I found a definitive answer. That answer never came, so I picked the better looking one, which I now see was a Stewart tank.

 

Some Stewarts came with a cast top cover and some, like mine, came with a tin cover with fillister screws.  The Stewart just looked nicer and was shorter, which fit better. I used the only amplifier I had, which was a Kingston.

 

Stewart had their own version of the amplifier, seen in the attached  pics.

 

At first, I thought I made a Frankenstein, but now, according to the Service Brochure, you can use the Kingston amplifier on any brand of tank.

 

See photos of my two tanks. The model #’s are in the photos.

 

Yes Doug… no two are alike.

Stewart-Warner Vacuum Tank MANUAL 2-11-27.pdf

Edited September 28, 2015 by idrjoe_sandiego (see edit history)

[30dodge35]

Well, I am confused now, my 1930 DA has a vacumn tank, and the parts book indicates it should have one, doesn't list a engine driven fuel pump.

I think 1931 is correct not 1930

And I agree with Doug no 2 are alike!

[nearchoclatetown]

Good grief! According to Harry DA's came with both Stewart and Kingston. In all my fleaing I've never seen a brochure for Kingston tanks. Of course the owner's manual doesn't show either or list a brand name. Dr. Joe I didn't know your car had a real pump, dam furrin car. And you say they were all the same?

[Bob Zetnick]

I guess in the scheme of things I could have had a Stewart tank w/ a Kingston amplifier; not likely, but a possibility. I don't think this sort of thing showed up in a build card....was it just whatever happened to be in the bins on the assembly line that day?

[stakeside]

Thanks sdrjoe:

My 29 series "E" DB truck has the DA6 engine and the top of my tank matches your Stewart Model 493 C with the U-7 marking. The internals are quite simple or else parts are missing. I have not seen an instruction manual for this model. The pdf file attached in prevous post shows quite different internals.