Restoring wire wheel help. Thanks

I have 9 40 spoke Kelsey Hayes wheels that are in need of repair and or restoring. Some have been use as parts wheels and some are to rusted and need a full restoration. I need help for someone that has done wheel restoration before. I am not so sure how to start on the project. So I have few questions and more to come.

1. Where to buy replacment spokes?

2. Is there a special spoke wrench or the regular 11/32 open end?

3. If your replacing a few spokes. How tight do you tighten them?

4. Ideas on how to build a wheel truing station?

5. Ways to remove a spoke the has rusted nipples?

6. Any other tips or hints? Web sites, Books, ect

I have time and can do most car repairs but have never had wire wheels before.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Dave

This company has the parts and tools you needed.

http://www.buchananspokes.net/

I have been struggling with this problem on 4 wheels over the past week and have not had good results so far.

A few things I can tell you is that Buchanans is the place to buy spokes

answer to No. 4 is: you can jack up the front hub of your car, release the brake shoes and do it on there

No. 5: If you want to replace the spoke, cut them with a pair of bolt cutters or a 4" grinder. If you want to try to adjust an existing frozen rusty spoke

try heating the nipple to red hot and then pouring cold water on it and the thread will release (well it has for me)

No. 6: Try to find someone to do it for you

Or...buy new wheels. We have found it to be far cheaper,especially in Australia with it's high costs,to simply buy new wheels.

No one makes a 40 spoke. The chrome outer and inter hubs are in nice condition. It's the spokes that are not that nice. I could clean them up but the first rain would grow rust again and I don't want that much work. So this is the game plan so far. Make a jig out of a 3/4" plywood board. Stake the outside hub and make a round post for inside hub. Clean nipples with wire brush. Use Aero Kroil oil for a few weeks. Remove all spokes on 7 wheels. Clean hubs. Find stainless steel spokes and nipples. Reassemble using anti seizure compound. Use dial gage for trueness. Did I miss something or any other ideas.

No one makes a 40 spoke. The chrome outer and inter hubs are in nice condition. It's the spokes that are not that nice. I could clean them up but the first rain would grow rust again and I don't want that much work. So this is the game plan so far. Make a jig out of a 3/4" plywood board. Stake the outside hub and make a round post for inside hub. Clean nipples with wire brush. Use Aero Kroil oil for a few weeks. Remove all spokes on 7 wheels. Clean hubs. Find stainless steel spokes and nipples. Reassemble using anti seizure compound. Use dial gage for trueness. Did I miss something or any other ideas.

As most kids in my era did,we made or repaired our own bycycle wheels . Look it up on Youtube,there are quite a few good videos there of people rebuilding spoked wheels and lots of ideas regarding a jig. What you need is an old spindle and hub assembly you can bolt the wheels hug to first .You need that true so you can support everything as you begin to lace up the spokes .

Regarding wheels, we had a set of 875mm wheels made for this car,and it was a lot cheaper than trying to restore the originals

All this is ASSUMING the rims are straight,,If not the tension to bring em in line will be

er,,,,aaam,,errr,,,JUST not acceptible,,,see i didn't even cuss,,,,haha,,Ben

You should live long enough to true bent rims,,,

Oh yes Heating ,,Cooling spokes wrecks the heat treat 'd alloy,,,Glass hard or soft,,CB

I have a car w/ 40spoke wheel,,it's correct,,BUT I keep a spoke wrench and spokes under the seat,,,really I do,,,CB

Are your 40 spokes KH? I did find out that you can not remove or install the short spoke with out loosening all spokes. You just can't replace one as they are locked in by the bend of spoke. When you say spoke wrench, what is it? I could not find a special wrench for the KH spokes. I am using a 11/32 open end wrench.

There is a spoke wrench made like a tubing wrench so that it engages with all 4 flats,,

Cheers,,Ben

There is a spoke wrench made like a tubing wrench so that it engages with all 4 flats,,

Cheers,,Ben

Were did you get the wrench? I looked for a spoke wrench for the Kelsey Hayes but could not find one and did not even think one was made for it. I need one. Dave

Refer back to post #2 the link,,Ben

Wheels need to be trued to within .040" (forty thousandth) or so to run without noticeable wobble. Make darn sure you use anti seize on stainless spokes and nipples.

It would be good to find if the rims are flat and round before spending time and money,,

A pretzell shaped rim can be beyond the definition of challenging ,,,

Get your order in for a full WIG before the hollidaye rush,,!!,,grin,,

Order a new supply of patience,,,you may run out,,,Do a dozen good wheels to get the hang of it,,, ,,, ,,, I'm only trying to be realistic,,,My memory may be just a bit too vivid !!!

Did I leave my morning coffee over there,,,Ben

David, You should ask Jack Guyomar in Brisbane . He has been spoking his own wheels for a very long time, and is very good technically all round. I would be surprised if you do not know him. You find him easily in whitepages.

Before using the little hot spanner I would always first try the ATF-acetone mix I learned on this forum. The acetone puts a polar "metal-seeking"end onto the very good lubricating, low viscosity ATF oil.

I have been struggling with this problem on 4 wheels over the past week and have not had good results so far.

A few things I can tell you is that Buchanans is the place to buy spokes

answer to No. 4 is: you can jack up the front hub of your car, release the brake shoes and do it on there

No. 5: If you want to replace the spoke, cut them with a pair of bolt cutters or a 4" grinder. If you want to try to adjust an existing frozen rusty spoke

try heating the nipple to red hot and then pouring cold water on it and the thread will release (well it has for me)

No. 6: Try to find someone to do it for you

I have on occasion added new spokes to an old rim where spokes were either missing or loose.

Before you start try to work out why the spoke is loose, if its been loose for a long time it will have caused some wear on either end (hub and rim) so make sure you sort that out first. I have seem some rims so bad a new spoke will pull through. There are spokes with larger heads available or you can build one up.

To answer your question about tension when adding odd spokes, its a matter of understanding how the wheel was laced and tensioned in the first place. you can 'ring' the spokes to test they are all the same (play a tune on them to see they all have the same pitch when struck). Unless you are building a complete wheel you are unlikely to be sucessful in correcting a rim wobble by adjusting a few spokes. You really need to start again with all the spoke nipples in good order.

Likely this job is best done by an expert wheel builder, it really depends upon the planned use of the wheel (car). I needed a few spokes to replace some missing ones on my 1917 Stutz and found Jaguar E Type spokes perfect in size, shape and these did (and are still doing) the job well.

To me, there is nothing as important as good wheels, tyres and brakes to keep you safe

Hi Ivan

I do know Jak well.

Same club, Same suburb and had thought about using his expertise but I have been trying to get them right myself however he may have to be the next port of call.

Called Buchanan spokes and spoke to Mr. Buchanan himself. He says about 50-60 lbs torque on the spokes. They stock the KH wheel spokes normally. Cost about $2.78-3.36 per Stainless Steel spoke and $2.34 per nipple. So about $5.50 per spoke at 40 spokes. $275 per wheels plus $66. to polish 40 spokes. I am going to take a few wheel apart and uses the best parts to restore one. I want to be sure my plan is workable and be sure I can true it up. Now it will be a few weeks of dismantling the wheels. I will report back! Thanks to all for the information to formulate a plan. Dave

Did a test wheel this weekend. I took one wheel and put kroil on the spokes let it soak for two day. Wow did that work. Removed every spoke. Now I am going to build a jig next weekend. More to follow. As always any ideas are great. Thanks Dave

Here is the jig.

Going to do a rough assemble on jig. Then take the wheel to the adult night auto school and put it on the spin balancer. Will then use a dial indicator.

Update on the progress.

Used the jig to put the disassembled wheel together. The two rows of short spokes must be laced at the same time. The short spokes lock in to the center hub and must all be done all at once. You can not just replace one spoke in the KH without losing all them up and rotate the center hub about a inch. One single long spoke can be replaced with out losing all of them. I have never seen a long spoke broken. Only the short ones. The other important discover I made was the 4 rows (2 long rows and 2 short rows) of spoke look the same in length to the eye but are not the same. They are .25 difference in length. I am now trading spokes back and forth. You want to have the spoke end to be the same on all spoke nipples.

Ok, after months of messing with the wire wheels I think I know how it done. The 4 rows of spoke are different in length. They are about 1/8" difference and they looked the same by eye to me. I re laced them correctly now!

Laced one up from my jig and spun it on the wheel machine using a dial indicator.

Radial run out was 0.015 and the lateral run out was 0.025. The max for new steel rims are 0.040 and 0.045. The used repaired steel wheel calls for a max 0.060 and 0.065. I will now order the stainless spokes and nipples and give that a go. I still would like to know a torque setting and still trying to find a chrome shop to do the hubs.

Tried a few chrome shop on the San Diego area and received a $250 per wheel for the inter and outer hubs (no spokes). A shop that takes it to TJ wanted $275. Was referred to a shop in OC and called them. They said $60 outer and $40 per inter. I am going to take a 100 mile drive and see them. Will report back. On a side note had a really rusty wheel and was able to soak the spokes and nipple with Kroil oil for a week. Then used 2 11/32 wrenches side by side and brake the nipple loose. If one is really hard, stop and do the others then come back for the hard one. With the rest of the spokes loose it un binds the nipple from the rim and then I was able to unscrew the nipple.

I have ordered the 320 stainless spokes and nipples from Dayton Wire wheels. I have the hubs and center at the chrome shop now and should be 3 weeks before done. I have now 10 wheels and center caps. I am restoring 8 and the spares will be cleaned up and keep as is. One set for the 61 and one for the 62. I will then sell the 4 nice origin set that is on the 61 now.

It been a month sense I dropped the 5 wheels in LA for chrome. Called and they will be done Wednesday (4-09-14). I now have stripped 3 more wheels and will drop them as I pick up the 5. The shop will also chrome 4 center caps and polish 4 stainless steel caps I have? The stainless steel ones are off a Eldorado and has the special center peace. The stainless steels spokes should be done this week as well. I also had a chance to build one more wheel out of used parts. I used the jig and true it up with the wheel balancer as before. So if all goes will I will end up with 4 restored wheel and a nice driver for the trunk of both car. The driver set now on my son's 61 will be sold. Here is the wheel re chromed and a before and after of a mirror base for $10.

I am still working on the wheels! Have 5 back together but still need to be torqued. Have 3 more do to finish the 2 sets.

It's been a year when I came up with the idea of 40 spokes on my 62. I have mastered the truing of these rim's. Just took the car out with the new setup and did 75 MPH and as smooth as glass. Now off the the Friday night car show. I will write up a closing statement next week but for now I am on to new things!

Nice looking wheels and informative posts

With 4 wheels done and on the road I can report that the car runs great down the freeway at 70+. Most wire wheel restorer don't want you to know how it done. I did purchased the wheel for $50. each intending on driving them as is. I made a close inspection and found a few bent and missing spokes. All were the short spokes. Short spokes seem to be the weak link in 1954-56 Kelsey Hayes Cadillac wire wheels. I had some extra short spoke and tried to do a replacement of the bad spokes. You can not replace the short spokes unless you remove all the spokes as they lock in place. It was not possible to replace just one spoke alone. I then started asking around on how to relace the wheel once I replaced the bad short spoke. I decided to make jig after trying to relace one with out a jig. With the jig I was able to lace the wheel and be close to the .065 max limits. I thought about the weak link of the short steel spokes and that my steel spokes had some rust. I had custom polished stainless spokes made from Dayton Wheels at $2.00 each. New chrome steel nipple $1.25. Buchanans Spoke & Rim bid $3.25 for SS spokes and $1.75 per nipple. When I received the SS spokes, the head had a ( stamped in it. I am going to assume that Dayton Wheels had Buchanans make them for me and passed on their price + profits. Chroming the old steel spoke is about $3.00 each. I have a 0 offset and all 4 spokes in a series were of difference size in lengths. I found the best rim with spoke lengths and sent the 4 difference sizes to Dayton for samples to match the length. I use Kroil oil to unloosen the spoke from the nipples. I was able to unloosen half the nipples and the rest I had to cut with a grinder. Once apart it is very important to inspect the spoke hole's in the center hub before chroming. If the rim had been ran with loose spoke it will elongate the hole and the spoke head will come right thru. After spending the money on the spokes and nipples I wanted to Crome the inter and outer hubs. The first place wanted $250 per wheel and the second wanted $275 per wheel. Living in SoCal I found Linco (714) 635-2800 that wanted $100 per wheel. Rolled the dice and they did a outstanding job. I saw lot of car and motor cycle parts they were doing. I had them remove the dents and polish my center stainless steel caps as well. They turned out new looking. So new someone ask me if they were repops. The best article I read was from SPOKE WHEEL BUILDING & TRUING by Mark Barnes. It was straight forward and understandable. To assemble the wheel I use copper anti seizing compound. Being careful to put the right length of spoke in the right hole. Tighten them finger tight in the jig. I used a dial indicator as I made adjustment to the spokes per the above article. Bringing them under .025. Not wanting to chase my tail I am happy with that. The DOT set max of .045 for radial runout and lateral runout on new car wheels. The DOT sets a max .065 for radial and lateral runout for repaired wheels. The 1962 Cadillac Shop Manual (page 4-10) set .050 max for radial runout and .045 for lateral runout. Now to tighten them up follow the above article on how tighten without changing the runout. A spoke wrench is a must. Buchanan's sells spokes wrenches (.297). Then you must grind it to fit the nipples. The nipples are odd sizes. Are far as torquing them, I have had a few difference in value. One company said 50-60 INCH pounds. The other said 80-90 INCH pounds. And another just said make them tight. One wheel smith said I should hit the nipple with a hammer as I tighten them up to be sure they are seated. He said doing that you will not need to adjust them after running them the first 100 miles as some recommend. I used a inch pounds torque wrench to get a feel of 70 inch pounds. I then guested with the spoke wrench. After all tighten is done you need to seal all nipples with 100% silicone on the inside of outer rim. Once the silicone is dry, take plumber's tape and wrap the inside twice. You can find plumber's tape at Home Depot. It is 2" wide and 1/8" thick of black rubber. Next would be to mount tires with tubes. Thanks for all the kind words as I reported on this project.

On 5/28/2014 at 12:23 AM, 62 driver said:

With 4 wheels done and on the road I can report that the car runs great down the freeway at 70+. Most wire wheel restorer don't want you to know how it done. I did purchased the wheel for $50. each intending on driving them as is. I made a close inspection and found a few bent and missing spokes. All were the short spokes. Short spokes seem to be the weak link in 1954-56 Kelsey Hayes Cadillac wire wheels. I had some extra short spoke and tried to do a replacement of the bad spokes. You can not replace the short spokes unless you remove all the spokes as they lock in place. It was not possible to replace just one spoke alone. I then started asking around on how to relace the wheel once I replaced the bad short spoke. I decided to make jig after trying to relace one with out a jig. With the jig I was able to lace the wheel and be close to the .065 max limits. I thought about the weak link of the short steel spokes and that my steel spokes had some rust. I had custom polished stainless spokes made from Dayton Wheels at $2.00 each. New chrome steel nipple $1.25. Buchanans Spoke & Rim bid $3.25 for SS spokes and $1.75 per nipple. When I received the SS spokes, the head had a ( stamped in it. I am going to assume that Dayton Wheels had Buchanans make them for me and passed on their price + profits. Chroming the old steel spoke is about $3.00 each. I have a 0 offset and all 4 spokes in a series were of difference size in lengths. I found the best rim with spoke lengths and sent the 4 difference sizes to Dayton for samples to match the length. I use Kroil oil to unloosen the spoke from the nipples. I was able to unloosen half the nipples and the rest I had to cut with a grinder. Once apart it is very important to inspect the spoke hole's in the center hub before chroming. If the rim had been ran with loose spoke it will elongate the hole and the spoke head will come right thru. After spending the money on the spokes and nipples I wanted to Crome the inter and outer hubs. The first place wanted $250 per wheel and the second wanted $275 per wheel. Living in SoCal I found Linco (714) 635-2800 that wanted $100 per wheel. Rolled the dice and they did a outstanding job. I saw lot of car and motor cycle parts they were doing. I had them remove the dents and polish my center stainless steel caps as well. They turned out new looking. So new someone ask me if they were repops. The best article I read was from SPOKE WHEEL BUILDING & TRUING by Mark Barnes. It was straight forward and understandable. To assemble the wheel I use copper anti seizing compound. Being careful to put the right length of spoke in the right hole. Tighten them finger tight in the jig. I used a dial indicator as I made adjustment to the spokes per the above article. Bringing them under .025. Not wanting to chase my tail I am happy with that. The DOT set max of .045 for radial runout and lateral runout on new car wheels. The DOT sets a max .065 for radial and lateral runout for repaired wheels. The 1962 Cadillac Shop Manual (page 4-10) set .050 max for radial runout and .045 for lateral runout. Now to tighten them up follow the above article on how tighten without changing the runout. A spoke wrench is a must. Buchanan's sells spokes wrenches (.297). Then you must grind it to fit the nipples. The nipples are odd sizes. Are far as torquing them, I have had a few difference in value. One company said 50-60 INCH pounds. The other said 80-90 INCH pounds. And another just said make them tight. One wheel smith said I should hit the nipple with a hammer as I tighten them up to be sure they are seated. He said doing that you will not need to adjust them after running them the first 100 miles as some recommend. I used a inch pounds torque wrench to get a feel of 70 inch pounds. I then guested with the spoke wrench. After all tighten is done you need to seal all nipples with 100% silicone on the inside of outer rim. Once the silicone is dry, take plumber's tape and wrap the inside twice. You can find plumber's tape at Home Depot. It is 2" wide and 1/8" thick of black rubber. Next would be to mount tires with tubes. Thanks for all the kind words as I reported on this project.

Hi 62 Driver, amazing dedication and good work. Congratulations! Do you have some videos of this nice repair work to share?

The wire wheels of my 1929 Chrysler and 1929 Marmon need full inspecrion and eventually some repair, so your experience is a very important reference to me. 
Many thanks!