MochetVelo Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 This Forum has some interesting Model 20 comments, so I thought I'd post some things about my car. It's a 1911 Model 20 Torpedo which arrived here just last week from Texas. It's an older restoration which I'd like to get running.Someone took elaborate measures to add a well-designed fan and water pump. Here you see it in the car, and then a shot of the bracket after I removed it.After removing the coolant tube on top, I discovered why they needed a water pump:The jugs are full of rust, which couldn't have helped radiator efficiency. Not sure how to extract all the rust, but I'll try.The Breeze carburetor was replaced with a British AMAL (from the '40s?). It uses a cable/pulley linkage from the original firewall throttle rod. It's not very dependable as the cable slips off the pulley. You can see the cable rising vertically from the carb in this photo:Next, the rear wheel, which I'm pondering how to remove. I expected a nut under the hubcap, but this is what I see:How do you take that off?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 On the wheel, you drive the pin out, then the hub will slip off the shaft. The hubcap keeps the pin from falling out, although usually it's a snug fit.If the car needed a water pump, then there's another problem as you're finding, either block or radiator stopped up. I once drove my Hupp 5 miles in low gear, in 90 degree heat, with the original thermosyphon system, and it didn't get hot enough to boil over....don't ask why I had to do that, I just did!As we've discussed, great body style on a neat car...congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 The rear wheel is held on with a tapered pin, and slid right off when I tapped it out. The brake mechanism looks pretty clean, though with a coat of oil on everything.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Congratulations on your "new" car ! It does look like you have the correct intake manifold, that's good news.Check and make sure the rear wheels are tight enough. A common item for straight shaft hubs is a wheel puller that goes in place of the hub cap, with a center screw to force the wheel off.good luck, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Ken, I agree it's the right intake manifold, I assumed from the picture that it's been cut off (the bottom of the "J")...Phil, is the manifold intact, or has it been cut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 (edited) It's the original intake, David, but I think it's been cut. I assume the original carb has its intake on the bottom and rests atop the intake flange. Mine has the intake flange facing forward (see photo). Has anyone made a new end and welded it on?Phil Edited June 29, 2013 by MochetVelo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 A question about the rear wheels: I assume the rear wheel bearings get their lubrication from the differential, and the seal leaks oil into the brake drums. How can I seal this? I haven't yet tried disassembled the axles.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 This photo shows the manifold & carb.There is a plug in the bottom. When it's cold you would leave the plug in and the air would enter at the top near the exhaust manifold. In hot weather you would remove the plug and air would enter at the bottom.good luck ,Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 So the Hupp manifold has two ports for the fuel mixture. I now understand why they cut off the bottom of the intake manifold to fit a standard carb. I imagine the Model 20 manifold is a tough part to find, but I would think a new bottom-part could be made and welded on. Has anyone ever tried that?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 Well, more accurately, the manifold only has one port for air/fuel mixture, but two ways for fresh air to get to carb intake (which is located at the bottom on the Breeze carb used). As Ken mentions, the plug determines whether ambient or heated air is used.The bottom of the "J" on the manifold would almost always be in the way of a replacement carb, thus it was cut off.The original Breeze carb is not a bad carb, but requires numerous adjustments (the carb manual is 32 pages long!) and I think a lot of people just gave up on it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 My leaky leather-lined rear axle seals are National 50045. Is there a modern equivalent I can substitute, or should I find originals?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 Take decimal size measurements, shaft and inside housing, go to a local bearing house and have them match a modern seal....it's a thin housing, if I remember I had to cut housing in half so that half with seal would fit....if that makes sense.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 I'm nibbling away at the axle seal, but it's pretty tight. Must I pull out the axle to remove the seal? Looks like the only way to do that is to disassemble the differential, spring, brakes, etc.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 Shouldn't have to disassemble, the seal is in an outer facing machined pocket.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 (edited) Good. Maybe I could insert sheet metal screws and pull it out with a little pry bar. Here's just what I was thinking of.Phil Edited June 30, 2013 by MochetVelo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 1, 2013 Author Share Posted July 1, 2013 The right rear wheel required a puller and a stack of spacers to remove. The brake drum and pads are saturated with oil. Surprisingly, the brakes worked on the tow over, but just barely. Now to find a better seal. If anyone knows of one that fits, let me know.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Well, more accurately, the manifold only has one port for air/fuel mixture, but two ways for fresh air to get to carb intake (which is located at the bottom on the Breeze carb used). As Ken mentions, the plug determines whether ambient or heated air is used.The bottom of the "J" on the manifold would almost always be in the way of a replacement carb, thus it was cut off.The original Breeze carb is not a bad carb, but requires numerous adjustments (the carb manual is 32 pages long!) and I think a lot of people just gave up on it.....The Breeze carby is not nearly as difficult to adjust as people make out. The most important thing is to have the float level correct. That happens when the fuel in the bowl is maintained at ¼ inch from the top lip of the bowl. Secondly the air valve has two springs, one very light which allows the valve to open at slow engine revs. The other stronger so the valve does not open further until speed is reached. These adjustments are not critical. What is critical is the main jet which is highly responsive to fuel octane and can only be adjusted by trial and error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) If you want to pull the rear end apart there is a right and a wrong way to do it. The suspension rod which supports the transverse spring should not be undone unless parts need to be replaced. It is very difficult to reassemble because of the strong coil springs inside the little tubes on each end which provide shock absorbers for the sliding shackles. What you have to do is to drift out the rivets holding this rod to the castings on each end of the axle tubes. You actually only need to undo one end and then the differential housing can be unbolted and separated to reveal the gears inside. It is probably best to undo both ends though to get the heavy spring assembly out of the way. When putting it together again I use roll pins instead of rivets which are much easier to drift out next time.Originally oil from the engine could work its way into the gearbox, then into the universal, then down the torque tube and into the differential, then down the axle tubes and out of the little holes on the underside of the axle tubes onto the road to settle the dust. In actual practice the oil ran through the roller bearings and onto the brake linings.I have put oil seals on the output shaft of the gearbox, outside the axle bearings and also outside the dif carrier bearings to stop oil running down the axle tubes. The axle bearings are lubricated by external grease cups. I lubricate the universal with heavy grease and the dif with heavy oil SAE 280. The gearbox has to have light engine oil SAE 20-50 because of the wet multi-disc clutch.The brakes (when kept free of oil) are very, very good and cleverly designed. A WORD OF WARNING! YOU MUST DE-CLUTCH BEFORE APPLYING THE BRAKES otherwise you impose a severe strain on the crankshaft leading to breakage because of the kinetic energy in the heavy flywheel out front of the engine. Edited July 1, 2013 by Edgar Bowen (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Edgar can you tell us a bit more about your method of setting the float level. I understand 1/4 " down to give the correct level at the jet, but with the carb apart to adjust you have the bowl in one hand and the body with the float in the other. I think I have mine correct thru trial & error, but I think we could all learn something more .thanks Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Edgar can you tell us a bit more about your method of setting the float level. I understand 1/4 " down to give the correct level at the jet, but with the carb apart to adjust you have the bowl in one hand and the body with the float in the other. I think I have mine correct thru trial & error, but I think we could all learn something more .thanks KenKen the way I set the float level is as follows: The bowl is removed from the body of the carburettor by unscrewing the nut at its base which forms the main air intake tube. With the bowl removed the said nut and tube is put back into the bowl and sealed in place so as the bowl does not leak. The float and its mechanism are already attached to the bowl. Provide a connecting tube to feed fuel into the bowl by the normal meansl. The whole set up will be flimsy so care is required. Now allow fuel to run into the bowl. The float will then rise until it cuts off the supply. Adjustment can be made on the shut off valve.All the best, Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 My car is a 1911 with "Model B' components, according to Edgar Bowen's posts. It has the pinned straight axle, brass hub caps and 8" brake drums. I'd read where they switched to 10" drums in '11, but I guess not completely. The right rear wheel was a pain to remove; I had to use a gear puller. It had a steel shim wrapped around the axle. I guess that's the disadvantage of the straight shaft; if the hub loosens, it's not easy to remove the play.PhilPhoto of left rear axle with brake shoes removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 My car is a 1911 with "Model B' components, according to Edgar Bowen's posts. It has the pinned straight axle, brass hub caps and 8" brake drums. I'd read where they switched to 10" drums in '11, but I guess not completely. The right rear wheel was a pain to remove; I had to use a gear puller. It had a steel shim wrapped around the axle. I guess that's the disadvantage of the straight shaft; if the hub loosens, it's not easy to remove the play.PhilPhoto of left rear axle with brake shoes removed.[ATTACH=CONFIG]202866[/ATTACH]There is a little confusion over different model characteristics because model changes occurred during the year. The first car in 1909 was a Model A runabout. Model B was introduced in Sept. 1909 and continued into 1911 when the runabout was superseded by Model C which itself was superseded in 1913 by Model G. Meanwhile the torpedo style Model T appeared in 1911 together with the touring Model D and coupe Model F. The long wheel base roadster Model E and pick up Model DT may have been introduced later in 1911. The first hub caps were aluminium and were changed to brass with Model C sometime later on in 1911. Many restorers have been unaware of these idiosyncrasies.The picture above showing the pinned axle is definitely the rear end configuration of a Model B also used on early Model F. I have an early 1911 Model B chassis # in the 7000s of this type with aluminium hub caps. Note the small brake drum backing plate and the pinned fastening of the rod holding the sliding shackle. Model B did away with this pinned fastening and used a screwed cap to fasten the road spring rod to the casting. Model C used tapered axle shafts with a nut to hold on the wheel and had 10 inch brake drums. If the wheel hub is not a tight fit with this straight axle shaft it can badly affect the car's steering. In that case consider having the shaft built up by spray welding and then re-machined.You will probably find the differential spider has only 2 planetary gears, whereas Model C has 4.If you wish to be pedantic, the sliding shackle on the illustrated rear end is lubricated by a large grease cup hanging underneath it. In Model C the shackle is lubricated by a grease nipple on the screw on cap mentioned. I can't quite see the shackle clearly enough in this picture to note whether there is short tube containing a strong buffer spring between the shackle and the supporting iron casting, or not. There should be otherwise there is a risk of damaging the casting on rough roads.Happy Hupping, Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) Interesting to hear of the changes Hupp made. I was curious how the axles got loose, as they don't turn in the hub. I suppose it is simply thousands of miles of bouncing down rough roads. We actually have a spray-welding shop in my town, so I can try them (not that I'm anxious to pull apart the rear axle). Note the gray-color chassis in the above photo. My engine is the same color. Is that similar to what Hupp used in 1911?Also interesting your mention of the grease nipples on the rear sliding spring shackles. I saw no grease cups, and felt underneath. Sure enough, there are threaded holes for grease fittings on each side.Phil Edited July 14, 2013 by MochetVelo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Hi Phil,On my straight axles and hubs I had a precision grinding shop grind both axles and bores of the hubs ,then they went out to be hard chrome plated, then back to the grinding shop for finish.Had the work area in far enough for the seal & bearing surface.Might have been a bit overkill ( belt and suspenders) but it's a real nice fit. Expect them to last a good while.It was expensive ( what isn't ? ) .Keep us posted ,the best,Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 19, 2013 Author Share Posted July 19, 2013 My Model 20 straight rear axle has wear which a previous owner "fixed" with steel shim stock. My question is: what should the fit be for the axle and hub? Should they be the same dimension? I'm assuming it is a slip-fit?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 My Model 20 straight rear axle has wear which a previous owner "fixed" with steel shim stock. My question is: what should the fit be for the axle and hub? Should they be the same dimension? I'm assuming it is a slip-fit?PhilHi Phil,Yes I think so, though the way I would describe it to my fitter and turner is 'a light tap on fit with a rubber mallet.'I presume the reason for these hubs working loose on the axle was due to the pin that holds them on wearing loose with all the force of the drive acting on the pin. Then the hub would work backwards and forwards on the axle wearing both. Modern technology uses keys instead of pins, which is an alternative option.What I would do, is to use a new pin made of very hard steel, making sure the pin is a good tight fit in the axle.The down side of this is that it would not be easy to remove the wheel to repair punctures, but with no horses on the road now that would not be the issue it was a hundred years ago.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 20, 2013 Author Share Posted July 20, 2013 I see there are a few ways to restore the worn axle (thermal spray, plating), and I wonder would both the axle and the hub require machining to get the fit correct? If so, I suppose the axle would require extra metal to make up for any lost in the hub I.D. Also, if the hub needs machining, must it be removed from the wheel?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I see there are a few ways to restore the worn axle (thermal spray, plating), and I wonder would both the axle and the hub require machining to get the fit correct? If so, I suppose the axle would require extra metal to make up for any lost in the hub I.D. Also, if the hub needs machining, must it be removed from the wheel?PhilRestore the axle to original so the bearing and oil seal fits and if necessary have the hub sleeved to fit the axle. This will require the hub be removed from the wheel but make sure to replace it the way it came out or the holes may not line up.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Here is my plan to remove the rear axles. Am I forgetting anything?- Detach radius rods at wheels.- Detach brake rods- Unbolt torque tube-to-differential connection- Unbolt differential housing and pull apartNot sure after that, but I assume the axles are attached to their gears with tapered pins(?)Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Here is my plan to remove the rear axles. Am I forgetting anything?- Detach radius rods at wheels.- Detach brake rods- Unbolt torque tube-to-differential connection- Unbolt differential housing and pull apartNot sure after that, but I assume the axles are attached to their gears with tapered pins(?)PhilThe rear axle assembly is heavy so think how you are going to move it before undoing anything. There are two options, leave the wheels on, disconnect the torque tube at the gearbox end, and roll the whole lot out. The other option is to draw the assembly out on a trolley jack, in which case disconnect the torque tube at the dif. end. Watch out not to drop the gearbox end of the torque as it will want to slip out of the universal. More axle stands would be helpful. Either way the chassis has to be supported on stands or hoisted from above. Make sure the brake rods go back where they came from and don't get them mixed; same with the radius rods if you remove them.The transverse spring must be undone at the U bolts. Spring supporting rod is removed as described previously only from the end castings by drifting out the pins which are tight. There are no complications with undoing the differential housing except a gooey mess. It all comes apart easily.Ask me about the bearings another time.Good luck, Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 I have the rear assembly out, and was surprised that it was not very difficult. I used 6 jack stands (2 on axle, 2 on drive shaft and 2 for the chassis). It's now draining before I split it open (and all the ball-bearings roll out). I'm reading Tom's "Drive Train Repair" thread, and I think his car has more miles on it than mine. Any suggestions on what bearings to replace would be appreciated. I wonder if my differential halves are as crooked as other's have been. In reassembly, couldn't one use some instant gasket maker like "The Right Stuff" by Permatex to prevent leaks?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 I have the rear assembly out, and was surprised that it was not very difficult. I used 6 jack stands (2 on axle, 2 on drive shaft and 2 for the chassis). It's now draining before I split it open (and all the ball-bearings roll out). I'm reading Tom's "Drive Train Repair" thread, and I think his car has more miles on it than mine. Any suggestions on what bearings to replace would be appreciated. I wonder if my differential halves are as crooked as other's have been. In reassembly, couldn't one use some instant gasket maker like "The Right Stuff" by Permatex to prevent leaks?PhilDear Phil,You are doing well. Only one half of my dif housing was badly run out and I got a bloke with a big lathe to true it up. Then I cut out a piece of sheet steel like a gasket to make up for the lost metal and put it between the two halves with gasket material on each side of it. It worked well and I've done 6,000 miles since.Replace the Hyatt dif carrier bearings with Timken tapered roller bearings - cone bearing #28682 and cup #28623. They fit exactly although you may have to add large washers to take up any slack. I got these washers from a Model T Ford owner so I suppose Ford use them in their difs. or somewhere. Final bearing pre-load adjustment is done by removing the studs in the dif. housing which enable the Hyatts to be drifted out, and replacing them with allen key grub screws, or I suppose you could use the same bolts.I installed an oil seal somewhere, I can't remember where to stop oil being pumped down the left axle tube(viewed from the rear) by the drive shaft pinion gear. Because of the direction of rotation it only pumps oil down the left side. Use very heavy oil in the dif but light engine oil in the gearbox.All the best, Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 Many thanks. I ordered the bearings (I assume two of each is needed). Next, I'll try to restore the axle-to-hub fit.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 27, 2013 Author Share Posted July 27, 2013 I opened the differential and found it different from Tom's 1910 model described elsewhere on this forum. No ball bearings dropped out, for one thing. The gears look pretty good, luckily. It doesn't seem the Timken tapered bearings suggested earlier will fit. Is this a good set-up, or should I change anything? Take a look...Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Hello Phil,The inside of your dif. is better than any I have seen before so it is probably okay to leave it alone. Timken bearings will fit, but the outside part of the Hyatt has to be driven out first. The thrust bearing inside is the main concern, and that is probably where the ball bearings that fell out of the other dif. came from. Timkens obviate the need for this(these) thrust bearing(s). If the bearings give way, the crown wheel climbs over the pinion gear and both are ruined. Have a think about it.Happy hupping, Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 I can see how the steel balls and the tapered-style bearings would handle thrust, but my differential doesn't have either of these features. Is that a design flaw, or do the existing Hyatt-style roller bearings do the job?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 There should be a thrust bearing(S) in there,see pic.It is the bronze plate with ball bearings.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 Thanks for the photo, Ken. I pulled my differential farther apart. On the right side, sure enough, I found a roller thrust bearing:And here is what I found on the left side:Not only that, but the right thrust bearing was failing, too:Mixed in the oil & grease were the rollers; some are broken up. The odd thing: where's the plate that held them? I couldn't find it anywhere! Luckily, the car was not driven much. I see no real damage.My next question is how to replace the bearings. The Timken cup 28623 fits nicely into the differential housing. Into that fits the Timken tapered bearing 28682. However, I'm not sure how the bearing I.D. fits, as the old bearing inner surface is not tapered: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Hi Phil,I am getting out of my depth here as I have not pulled a Model B Differential apart, only a Model C. I do have a Model B dif. but don't want to undo it just yet as I have too many Hupp components in pieces at the present time. The Timken bearings should not be tapered on the ID of the cone. I have almost got my car ready to start after a total engine rebuild.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Hi Phil, If the Hyatt type roller bearing you have there is still good, maybe just replace the thrust bearing?Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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