Six speed manual thoughts

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Related posts:

She's done. The demise of my 4T60

and Just Not Making Enough Power, the thread that came before we figured out my transaxle died

I went with my dad to do a few errands and got talking about the possible six speed manual project.

DISCLAIMER: THESE ARE ALL MUSINGS. TAKE THEM WITH A PINCH OF SALT. NO PROMISES EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED THAT I'M GOING TO DO THIS

Now, like I was saying...we decided to drop by Crippen, a BPG dealer, and test drove a brand new Pontiac G6 GT coupe with the 3900 and the 6 speed. I made note that the country of origin sticker on the windshield indicated the transmission was made in Sweden. It's safe to say that Saab engineered it, since Sabb is part of GM and they use these in their 9-3. I'm having to keep myself from being distracted...I'm not in a position in my life, yet, where I could buy a new car, but if I was going to, it would probably be the G6 coupe <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. Don't worry guys, I'm not selling out or anything, but it has the best drivetrain in a mid-size coupe IMHO. I dunno about the rear, but the styling is great. The interior is pretty good and I found it comfortable. It's not luxury oriented like the Reatta was, but there's 15 years or so between them. If you were looking for a modern replacement for the Reatta I'd suggest the G6 coupe.

Anyway, the 3900 and transaxle work perfectly together. The clutch and shift action are easy and satisfying. The differential ratio is 3.55:1, considerably higher than the 2.92 (I think it is) of an '89. 1st gear lasts only a second or so when floored, instead of being long and drawn out like me and the rest of you are used to with your 4T60s. The 3900 likes higher RPMs, but redline is still around 5500 like our 3800s. We couldn't see much, but I looked around under the hood to see the configuration of the transaxle. I got to see the shift cables, but that's about it. With its close ratios, you can easily find the right gear for your situation. RPMs at 75 mph were 2500, if I remember right, slightly higher than we're used to, but not out of line.

I think the '91s had like a 3.06 ratio, so RPMs will be slightly higher.

The shift knob was pretty nice, with short throws. I've driven a manual quite a bit (my Explorer). It took me a couple minutes to figure out that you have to pull up this thing around the shift knob to get it into reverse (I didn't know any better <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />). I chirped the tires, dropping it into second and giving it a generous mash. I wish I could figure out a translator of sorts to use the 3900 PCM with the Reatta's BCM, instrumentation, etc. I think it's an overlooked GM motor, putting out 240 hp. It's still cam in block, but has variable valve timing.

The transaxle looked smaller compared with the 4T60. Probably doesn't matter, but may make things easier.

GM Red Tag price was slightly over $23k...man, I am getting distracted...but then, that goes back to my work. There's nothing else like a Reatta and never will be, but it's not class leading or competetive these days, but that's what retrofitting is for.

At any rate, I wanted to put it out here that I'm evaluating this option, and it looks like a good one. My local transmission mechanic said that a good rebuild of mine would cost around $1400, but I think I could take it into my own hands and retrofit the 6 speed for around the same price, maybe less. Comments welcome.

[padgett]

Certainly doable, major issue is the clutch and bellhousing (Greg used a hydraulic clutch. Computer is mainly a matter of recalibrating the speed (MPH) sensor input and turning off error related subroutines and the DFCO. Hopefully the G6 trans has a neutral signal as well as reverse.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I know the bellhousing will bolt up, no known issues there. Would probably use the G6's slave cylinder, and probably the clutch/flywheel. I figure the slave cylinder can be from anything.

[Guest MauiWowee]

I know that the allure of having the first six speed in a Reatta is driving you, but wouldn't going with a five speed (Greg has already broken the ground) be a bit more practical (availability wise) and a whole lot more economical? Once again, I never mean to discourage your adventures, just pointing out a little reality. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thanks Maui, but...

-A 5 speed, when there exists a 6 speed, is like buying a Mustang and not a GT. Or, like dudes on GMI say, "half baked". Not discrediting Greg's work, but there wasn't a 6 speed option back then.

-Economical? Maybe. But, a 6 speed with 2k miles goes for $700. If I want to go out of state, I can get NEW units for $800

[Guest CL_Reatta]

Don't forget about the extra bragging rights a 6 speed has <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Rawja]

.....like an amplifier that goes to eleven. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[manikmekanik]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> .....like an amplifier that goes to eleven. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

More like "eleven-teen"! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I emailed The Auto Shop, which was responsible for making the 5 speed manual, Series II L67 Toronado Trofeo...

<span style="font-weight: bold">I've looked at the G6 6-spd data a bit (though have yet to see one in

person), it's quite different from my 282 and Greg's 284. I'm sure it could

be done, I've even thought about it for my car.

Any sort of manual transmission in these cars is a major undertaking. Not

much bolts in, you have to build or modify just about everything. I'm not

sure about the size of your cars, but in mine it even required custom

shifter cables due to the extra length. I prefer manual transmissions in

just about everything, that said I can't say I'd recommend the effort in

these cars. It's a very major undertaking to get it to work and look

correct. Just getting your cruise, IPC and VIC displays to work correctly

takes a significant amount of time.

The actual rubber mount on my car is a stock piece. I just modified the

subframe to fit it, and added the bracket it bolts to. You have to drop it

in and out a few times to get the geometery of the mount plates correct.

Again, while they're both E-body cars, I'm not sure what will apply to you.

I had to significantly modify the steering column support to get the clutch

pedal assembly in there. Then getting the pedals to line up like I wanted

them (clutch pedal slightly higher like a RWD car) and function correctly

took some time.

The Series2 engine was also used in the F-body, so it was just a matter of

shaving some metal off the flywheel to make that work. No Series1 (that I

could find) came with a manual transmission, so that was a very custom

piece. Still have it somewhere if you decide to do this project. It wasn't

only the balance, but also the # of bolt holes and such.

If you're going to take on a manual trans project, I just have to warn you.

You will need access to at least a MIG welder and some form of metal

fabrication and cutting tools. Plasma cutter really helps. This isn't

something that just bolts together. It's a very labor and thought intensive

project that will take a significant amount of time to do correctly. Your

ECM will need significant retuning after you're done.

Were you able to get the park brake to work on the Aurora rear brakes?

Scott Pearson

The Auto Shop

www.theautoshop.net

Phone: 563.886.2821

Fax: 563.886.6127 </span>

I haven't email him back yet, but will tonight. Yes, it's going to be difficult, a fact I should take from our own Greg and Mr. Pearson here, but I'm still considering it.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I've also fired off an email to Ryan of GMtuners/Sinister Performance, to see if there will be any tuning issues.

[Guest Greg Ross]

Scott has hit on all the major issues needing to be addressed to mate the manual be it 5-Spd. or 6-Spd. into an "E" Body.

One thing I encountered with the '88 was with the 1/2 Shafts. Stock "W" Body axles would likely fit, only oddity was with the '88's small front wheel bearings (larger bearings fitted '89 and later) This meant the outer ends of the 1/2 Shafts had to be disassembled and parts to suit the '88 wheel bearing used.

I didn't have any difficulty with Shift Cable lengths so don't quite grasp what Scott ran into.

I approached the clutch pedal assembly a bit differently. I didn't modify the steering wheel support, rather used the same mounting pin/ bracket and narrowed the brake pedal bushing to make space for the clutch. Mine as well is set up as Scott describes, projecting slightly further back then the brake pedal. This was all fabrication work as was the linkage out through the firewall to the Clutch master Cylinder.

The tranny mount Scott described, I elected to modify a stock mount to mate to the Sub-frame, reverse of the way he went. His makes more sense should rplacement ever be required. To disassemble/ remove the tranny involves removal of one bolt at that mount.

Speedo/ BCM (kept happy)means you need to install a multiplier. Dakota Digital adjustable Speedo Signal is what I use. With oversized tires I'm within 1/2%

The Flywheel as detailed by V8 Archie of V8 Fiero fame starts with a stock RWD 3800 Flywheel as found in only one car, a 1990 Camero, V6 5-Spd RWD. Only year it was offered. This flywheel matches the bolt pattern on the 3800 crank shaft. It then has to be machined down in thickness to interface with the Getrag transmission. Scotts' offer of that flywheel is one you don't want to pass up if you're serious.

To eliminate guesswork with the modified flywheel I elected to go neutral balance through the crank. A stock flywheel would have imbalance specific to the engine it mates to. This could not be duplicated with the machined flywheel so the crank, rod, pistons were all balanced "0"

ECM modifications are required to "turn Off" a number of inputs related to the transmission, torque converter, etc.

The amount of fabrication required cannot be understated. I spent approximately 6 months acquiring parts, getting the engine done over at a Speed Shop, prefabricating bits and pieces and basically planning the installation.

As my installation turned out, I had one week to get it finished and on the road. We pulled the engine on a Friday afternoon and I had it out for a test drive the following Friday night, OK, it took 8 Days! Spent 2 days thinking my Clutch was frigged up, Padgett picqued the needed info from again, V8 Archie. a minimum amount of Master Cylinder travel (2-5/8" if I remember) was rerquired to gain clutch disengagement. Modified the geometry on my clutch pedal the Friday afternoon and I was in business.

With that alteration I had to do some rebending and lengthening the linkage off the pedal. I had to do some clearance grinding with a die grinder up under the dash. Got crap in my eye and was held over until the Monday by the Doctor who dug the steel out of my eye.

That Monday morning I got on the road in Houma, La and drove directly to Prince Edward Island, Canada, round about 2400 miles give or take. Only "on the road" maintenance was changing a fuel injector that was leaking. I did the trip without audio entertainment. Putting the Console back together on the Saturday afternoon with a patch on one eye, I couldn't manage to plug in the radio Box harness connectors.

I, like Scott prefer a manual transmission, just grew up that way. The Reatta probably doesn't experience any performance benifit from the manual Tranny, just more rugged and reliable, comparitively.

Costs, phew. That's wide open. When I did my conversion I bought as many new parts as I could find. At the time I didn't have a facility/ shop where I could refurbish, rebuild, refinish parts. I got access to a Shop at the right time complete with a hoist and some complimentary labour to help me with the heavy stuff. I have spent a career around custom fabrication so understand metalworking as second nature. I designed all the odd parts for the whole installation and that's difficult to value in time or costs.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thank you Greg for your reply. I'm still reading it...I understand things like this if I read it a few times.

If you don't mind, could you explain the crankshaft and flywheel balancing a little more? I'm new to that engine concept.

Work would be over a few months with plenty of space to work in. I no longer have a girlfriend so things would get done (the biggest reason "Supercharging..." took so long <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> [kid you not]). No Nic, Jessica's not available <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Greg Ross]

Philip,

Ever heard of "Balanced and Blueprinted"

An internal combustion engine as it is developed and refined has balance/ or imbalance alterations made to make it run right. Our little 3800 had a major improvement made over the original Buick 225/ 231 CI in 1987 by adding the counterbalance shaft above the cam shaft. This 6 cylinder had a lumpy idle back in the sixties and as I recall that was about the only complaint.

When I went looking for Flywheel options I located someone offering an all aluminum custom part for about $550. Speaking with a Hi Perf. Engine Shop he suggested going away from the factory imbalance, ie, Crank and flywheel not balanced or having static imbalance as designed by GM (Padgett can you describe this more clearly)

Balancing an engine, ie; each piston and rod combination weighed and ground to match each other weightwise and the Crank neutral balanced. This all allows an engine to rev more freely, with less wear and theoritically longer life in harsh use. Since I was tearing the engine down to extract the crank I decided to get the pistons and rods done while it was apart. Doing the pistons and rods is likely no benifit in a 250 hp engine!

Does that description make some sense?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

<span style="font-style: italic">The following was the message I sent back to Scott at The Auto Shop. In bold is what he said...</span>

> Thank you Mr. Pearson for getting back with me, and giving me an extensive

> reply. I hope you don't mind me asking a few more questions..again, reply

> at your leisure.

<span style="font-weight: bold">No problem! You don't have to call me "Mr.", I'm not *that* old!</span>

> I do understand that it wouldn't be an easy task. I can understand it, and

> I've heard it from Greg, and I've heard it from you. The good thing is

> that I can get serious about things, if I want to. I don't intend on

> getting rid of my Reatta anytime soon, and I'm always trying to improve my

> knowledge of these cars. If you're ever at the AACA/Reatta.net board, you

> can see I've got over 3500 posts. Not bragging or anything, but this is

> not a little idea I'll forget about tomorrow...this may turn out to be

> real.

>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Determination is a major factor in this kind of project. It will take alot

of time and patience to get it working correctly.</span>

> I did notice that you had custom cables made, by Control Cables. Not

> familiar with having custom cables made...is it obscenely expensive?

>

<span style="font-weight: bold">No, the cables weren't that bad, less than $200 I think. Be sure to get the

high temp ones, I melted a set of the regular ones on the car's first long

road trip. Be sure you have a good supply of $$$$ when doing this project,

the little stuff adds up quick. Also, you will probably break some things

getting the bugs worked out.</span>

> I'm not a purist, but I don't like cobble jobs either. I can understand

> your desire to make everything look like it's suppose to be there, which I

> think I could do. The Reatta's console has been easy to work in.

>

<span style="font-weight: bold">My standard is if it looks like it doesn't belong there, it isn't done

right.

Trofeo consoles are a pain, no space for extra add-on's. I have a small

Midland CB in mine, it's also wired for a later Trofeo CD slave unit, but

need to modify it for mounting space. Will probably require making a custom

console.</span>

> Do you suppose there would be any issues with mixing different slave and

> master cylinders? From how I've thought it out in my head, it would seem

> like a clutch pedal and master cylinder could be used from most anything

> (Cavalier, Beretta, whatever). Might not be much interchange with the 6

> speed's slave cylinder, but I don't think that would be a problem.

>

<span style="font-weight: bold">As long as the fittings seal and the hydraulics work, you can mix alot of

stuff. My master is from a Beretta and the slave is from a Grand Prix. Much

of this is trial and error, as there isn't much data out there for this kind

of swap. I don't even know what kind of slave/throw out bearing system is

used on the G6.</span>

> I haven't had my cruise control working in the time I've owned the car,

> lol. It's something I would fix though and integrate into the swap. Are

> there any issues with the ECM and the electronics on board, besides having

> to de-program some transmission related CEL-type codes and the speed

> sensor? I could see the park/neutrel switch being a slight issue, but I

> guess that would be wired in with the clutch pedal.

>

<span style="font-weight: bold">No cruise?!?!? How do you put up with that? That's one of my favorite

features of these cars, "CRUISE SET AT xxx" I've often thought of building a

display like that for my Trans Am.

You may have some speed sensor related issues, depending on the tooth count

of the newer transmission. Lots of IAC calibration work, low RPM high load

fueling and spark changes. Remember, your current setup wouldn't do 30mph at

full throttle in high gear. May want to rent some time on a good load

absorbtion dynamometer to get everything dialed in.</span>

> I'll keep in mind that you have the previous flywheel you used. For

> reference, do you know what it's worth?

>

<span style="font-weight: bold">$50 would convince me to dig through my parts and find it. Would require a

light re-surfacing, as it's been sitting in a barn for ~4 years.</span>

> I have yet to deal with the Aurora parking brake issue. I'd obviously want

> to do that with this swap, and it's a good thing to have anyway with a

> Teves ABS.

>

<span style="font-weight: bold">I'd be interested to hear how you get all that worked out. How much bigger

are the Aurora rear rotors?</span>

> Again, I thank you for replying. Do you mind if I copy/paste your emails

> onto the Reatta message board?

<span style="font-weight: bold">That's fine.</span>

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I'm gonna fire off a reply to Scott again tonight.

My determination was tested with "Supercharging..." <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. I was getting close to doing what Maui suggested, and giving up an adding the M62 to the LN3, and just using the L67. I pulled through it though. I think I can pull through this.

With the shift gate thingy removed, the '89 console seems to have a lot of room. I haven't seen one in person, but I don't think getting the shifter and cables to fit in the console will be difficult.

I do need to fix my cruise. I guess the gas pedal is just too easy to rest my foot on.

I now understand what ECM changes are needed. Makes sense. As before with "Supercharging..." I could have Ryan do a "burn" of my memcal through the mail, then when it's drivable, take a trip to Fort Wayne.

As Greg mentioned, that flywheel sounds good to me. His was used with a Series 1 L67...would it be okay on my LN3?

[Guest spyhunter2k]

I had to educate myself a bit on the Reatta transmission to understand this discussion. I found a very interesting forum entry that I believe others who are similarly ignorant of our transmission specifics and history may benefit from:

"A little history on the 4T60 used in FWD GM vehicles.

The THM440-T4 was introduced in 1984 on the new GM full sized luxury vehicles (Oldsmobile Regency 98, Buick Park Avenue, Cadillac Sedan Deville - remember the logo

on the trunk lid "4-Speed Automatic"). This transmission was basically the THM125-C with an overdrive added on.

The original 440 was not very reliable. Many changes were made the first 3 years. Areas that suffered many failures were torque converters (clutch rivets), 2nd clutch housings, 4th clutch area, final drive.

When the Cadillac Allante was introduced, the 440 would not handle the torque of the V-8, so a special version known as the F-7 was developed. It included special sprockets, heavy duty final drive, special fourth clutch, etc. A rare but solid transmission if you can find one.

By 1988 the quality was better, but to make the 440 (now called the 4T60) a world class transmission, electronic controls were added. The new transmission was coded F-31 and became known as the 4T60-E. The 4T60-E was phased in from 1988 to 1990. You can tell by looking at the bottom oil pan - it will be stamped with "4T60-E". This transmission has much better reliability.

By the 1991 model year, all FWD Overdrive transmissions were the 4T60-E model. As a side note, with the introduction of the Northstar V-8s, a new low volume transmission was

developed for these applications. It is known as the 4T80-E. Very durable but very expensive, about 80% higher in cost than the 4T60-E. Also 60 pounds heavier.

With the introduction of the Supercharged 3800, a few modifications to the 4T60-E were made. The biggest change is the final drive unit, which is of heavy duty design. The transmission still can't handle the full torque of engines such as the SC 3800 and the DOHC 3.4L V-6s at redline during shifts. GM utilizes Engine Torque Management to maintain reliability. This consists of controlling engine rpm and engine torque (through timing and fuel) during shifts. That is why the SC 3800 and DOHC 3.4L do not shift at redline at WOT.

For the 1997 model year, GM introduce the 4T65-E. This transmission is a heavily reworked 4T60-E design which includes such features as a 258mm torque converter instead of 245mm, twin chains and special sprockets for noise, Electronic Line Pressure (ELP) for ECM control

of pump pressure to better regulate shift quality, revised fourth clutch, revised second clutch housing, and many other improvements to reliability. The first applications to receive the 4T65-E will be the SC 3800 V-6 and the DOHC 3.4L V-6 to minimize the need for torque management. The phase in will be three years and will be complete by model year 1999.

The biggest cause of failure of the original 4T60 (440) is heat. Through control of shift points and torque converter lockup, tranmission temperature can be controlled. There is a temperature sensor in the transmission for the ECM to monitor. This shows the STRONG recommendation to add and external air/oil transmission cooler for 4T60 (440) equipped vehicles.

Steve Ochs aka N8TYS- Mfg. Engineer - GM Powertrain - Parma Plant

Transmission Division (4T60/65-E) -

Pontiac Automatic Transmissions

This table is provided for entertainment only. No warranty is expressed or implied as to its accuracy. Typographical errors are possible. Please send any corrections or additions to Rich. Many thanks to Ken Carothers for posting the original ratios table, and James Butler for posting the 4T65-E history, in the "Poncho" mailing list.

Model 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Reverse

Rear Wheel Drive

TH-180C (3L30) 2.400 1.479 1.000 2.000

TH-200-4R 2.741 1.568 1.000 0.674 2.067

TH-350 2.52 1.52 1.00 ?

TH-400 (3L80) 2.482 1.482 1.000 2.077

TH-700-R4 (4L60) 3.059 1.625 1.000 0.696 2.294

4L30-E 2.400 1.479 1.000 0.723 2.000

4L30-E Optional 2.860 1.620 1.000 0.723 2.000

4L60-E 3.059 1.625 1.000 0.696 2.294

4L80-E 2.482 1.482 1.000 0.750 2.077

Front Wheel Drive

TH-125C (3T40) 2.840 1.600 1.000 2.067

4T40-E ? ? ? ? ?

TH-440-T4 (4T60) 2.921 1.568 1.000 0.705 2.385

4T60-E 2.921 1.568 1.000 0.705 2.385

4T65-E 2.921 1.568 1.000 0.705 2.385

4T80-E 2.960 1.626 1.000 0.681 2.130

Here is the rough lineage of the 4T65-E:

Designed Yr.- Production Yr.- Model

1974 - 1978 - THM-125 (3T40) - Some bushings & bearings carried from

THM-200, some basic designs of splines & shafts from THM-200 and THM-350

1980 - 1983 - THM-440T4 (4T60) - Four speed version of THM-125. Some parts

identical or very similar. Somewhat stronger than THM-125.

1983? - 1986? - F-7 - Made exclusively for Cadillac Allante. Similar

design but many parts different to improve torque capacity. More

expensive.

1985 - 1988 - 4T60-E - (F-31) Electronic shift version of THM-440T4. Most

parts identical to THM-440T4.

1991? - 1993? - 4T60-E HD - Same as 4T60-E except with a few heavy duty

parts (mainly final drive gearset) for supercharged 3.8l V-6 application.

1992 - 1997 - 4T65-E - Very similar to 4T60-E with many common components,

but many major differences also."

Hope others found this as informative as I did.

Seth

[Guest F14CRAZY]

spyhunter: ah yes, I noticed that info from Wikipedia. It's all useful info, but from what I know, the F-7 was used in other 4.1-4.5L V8 applications, but I dunno for sure either way.

[Guest spyhunter2k]

Incidentally, I just read on wikipedia that Allantes had the F-7 version of the 4T60 transmission from 87-92, a little different than the guess of the person I quoted above.

[Guest spyhunter2k]

It would seem that using an F-7 with a cooler would be the simplest way to go to get a beefier trans that could conceivably take close to 3C hp. I know you'd still like to have a 5 or maybe 6-speed in the future, but you've gotta have something in the meantime, right?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I see what you're getting at. Would take a lot less time. Good thing is, winter weather is starting this week (actually as I write this), which is when my car is parked for the winter. I don't drive it in salty conditions, which = most all winter. I have my 4x4 Explorer for this time of year.

The F-7 would be the best bet if I decide to go with an auto again

[Guest spyhunter2k]

Gotcha--was thinking it was your daily driver...

[padgett]

My memory is a little different in that I do not recall the "E" transmission being used in production prior to 1990 and on the 3800 in 1991. Also the 4T60 designation was introduced in 1990 for Buick (is a TCB about it).

The 440T4/4T60 was continually being improved/strengthened and the remanufactured ones from GM contain all of the updates (according to the GM catalog).

The 3T40 is commonly used with V-8s in Fieros so can handle steady torque but wheel tramp on acceleration is a rear transmission breaker (Fiero is mid-engine/RWD and does not have that problem unless being really silly.

Differential gears in the 4T65E are considerably larger/stronger than the 4T60 to handle the L-67. They still break but mostly on takeoff.

Biggest difference for the 3800 was the "evenfire" offset crank in 1977 which really smoothed the idle. Balance shaft (1987) removed the last bit. When Buick introed the six in the 60s it had special rubber mounts to absorb the vibration.

Reason for the "odd-fire" was so it could go down a V-8 assembly line.

Was so popular that GM sold the engine to Jeep.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Ryan of GMtuners/Sinister Performance replied...he said that yes, he'd be willing to do any reprogramming to my ECM/memcal. I believe Scott will be replying soon regarding some other questions I had soon.

[Guest Greg Ross]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> With the shift gate thingy removed, the '89 console seems to have a lot of room </div></div>

The manual tranny Shifter coming from the '90s' "W" Bodies was a fairly large assembly. Going from memory I'm thinking 12"-14" long plus cables. Once I removed the Auto Shifter I mocked up the Shifter assembly with the Console frame/ surround positioned so I could see where it had to sit. Built bolt on brackets to support it in that position, sat in the seat and tried it out for comfort.

Putting the console back in was quite the chore, there was some cutting away of plastic and steel to realign the console to where it belonged. Once you strip the panels off the sides of the console and see where the shifter assembly will go and where the cables have to be routed, there's a lot of interference primarily with plastic in the front of the console below the dash.

I actually had to move the radio boxes back to make room for the shifter and that meant reversing the Bin under the armrest to make room for it all.

I'd say for me it was about 2 full days work to make it all work. Image on this posting gives you an "in progress", and "My Avitar" shows the finished shifter/ leatherwork.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thanks for the info and pic Greg. Will be thinking about it.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I've been doing a lot of research behind the scenes. Expect an update soon

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I'm still sorting things out, but expect another thread in the near future...