K8096 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 As stated in another post, I put a kit in my Rochester carburator on my '55 400 because it was hesitating when starting off, so I figured the accelerator pump was worn. You would have to almost feather the gas pedal to get it to start off smoothly. Other than that it ran great. The car has 49,000 original miles & I don't think the carb was ever off the car before. Once completely disassembled, I soaked each piece in one of those carb cleaner buckets and rinsed them off & let them dry. The next day I ran compressed air through all the carb pasasages, including the venturi. Yesterday I reassembled it with the new accelerator pump and ran the car. The car ran, but not correctly as I had to keep it reved up to keep it running when I went around the block with it. The primary venturi has two pump discharge nozzles on it, and while the passanger side on squirted gas forcefully, the drivers side one was weak & dribbling. So I figured something in the venturi was still clogged. I took the top off the carb again & took the primary venturi out & ran more compressed air through it, reinstalled it, and found both nozzles to be working evenly & correctly now. Put carb top back on, started car & it seemed to idle correctly & rev up better, still with a slight flat spot, but it ran good enough to drive it. Cruise in time. Drove it to the local cruise in tonight 3 miles down the road. Still hesitates when starting off, but once you get going it ran great with plenty of power. Idled smooth, even when hot. Sat at cruise in for 1 1/2 hours BSing with friends. Then drove home. Barely made it home. Car starts fine, idles fine, still hesitates when starting off, but now wouldn't run smooth at all. Constantly sputtered on way home, & ran very unevenly at 20 - 40 MPH. When I got home, I took the air cleaner off & pressed the accelerator pump by hand & both nozzles were still squirting normally. What gives?A couple notes about my kit installation. The jets ARE in the correct places & not mixed up (I've made that mistake in the past on another car). During all of this, the glass fuel bowl at the carb inlet was full of gas & not bubbling which should rule out vapor lock. The little round ball and the spring were put in with the accelerator pump, and the round ball & spring were put in on that little "T" piece by the primary venturi. The floats hang about 2 1/4 inches from the top carb piece per the shop manual. I do not have an electric fuel pump on the car. A friend at the cruise in thinks it may be the accelerator pump not seating property. He said sometimes you have to "flare out" the rubber part by hand to make it seat better. I'll be working on this tommorow night after work again, so any daytime suggestions would be appreciated. I have to get this fixed by Friday night, or I'll have to drive modern to Warren. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I realize it could be crud in the gas tank, but I've driven it on the freeway earlier this year with no trouble but the hesitation when starting off, so I don't think that's the problem. Do you think something is still clogged, or is a float hanging up? Help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 Went in the garage & played with it for 5 minutes this morning before heading off to work. Car starts right up fine, but seems to be starving for fuel when reving it up. Runs very rough when holding throttle at 1000 - 2000 rpm. One other thing that's semi related. I'm not running a filter in the glass fuel bowl because when I do, the bowl only seems to fill up about 3/4 of the way & I thought that might be starving it for gas. With the fuel filter removed, it fills up 100%. Do other V-8 Packards have this charactaristic? I thinking the accelerator pump is the problem. Perhaps gas leaking past it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I had a similar problem with a '55 Chevy and found that there was no air vent in tank gas-cap. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I had put on another (better looking) cap that didn't have a vent hole. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 When I get home I'll start it with the gas cap off & see what it does. A clogged gas cap vent hole wouldn't just happen from sitting for an hour though. It ran good on the way to the cruise in last night, just coming home it was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Packard had an STB about flaring out the leather acc pump but I never heard you had to do the same thing with rubber - worth a shot though. If you have the ceramic filter and spring put them back in the filter bowl. You could have crud in the tank and lines and you are just going to suck it in the carb. My bowl doesn't get much over 3/4 full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Going to do a little guessing on this one.First, the accelerator pump is NOT going to cause rough running at cruise. It is possible that omitting the pump discharge check spring (the spring between the ball and the "T" retainer) could cause rough running, but it would be extremely rich; you would be unable to see behind you due to black smoke.From your symptoms, which keep changing, I am guessing that you disturbed the "crud" located in the fuel lines when they were loosened to remove the carburetor; and you now have distributed a new batch of crud in the carburetor.At this point in time I would suggest careful disassembly of the carburetor and recleaning. At this point, I would check the float level setting in the carburetor carefully, as well as the float drop. You should not need another rebuilding kit. Just be careful not to tear any of the gaskets. The compressed air through the passageways is good (just wear eye and ear protection).Once you have reassembled the carb, place a good modern inline filter (this will be temporary) right at the carburetor to protect it from additional crud.If you live in an area that recently went to ethanol, this is to be expected; as the ethanol WILL clean the crud and move it forward. We recommend also placing an inline filter before the fuel pump to protect the pump, and carry a couple of spares in the glove box. When the car starts to give problems, change the inline filter. I got sufficiently proficient to change one in less than a minute (practice). If this turns out to be the problem, the good news is, eventually (we went through 9 filters on one car first) all the crud will be removed by the filters.Once you have driven a few months without changing the filter, it may be removed.Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 Thanks to both of you for your suggestions. Can't wait to work on it again tonight! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Vines Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Hi, carbking,Thanks for the expert advice. Just for our education and edification, what is your going rate for a pro-rebuild of a list member's Rochester 4CG?Another request for expert opinion. Packard used both Rochester and Carter 4-bbls on the '55 and '56 V8s. Which do you like better and why? Might as well throw in how much to rebuild the Carter also. TIA.jv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi, carbking,Thanks for the expert advice. Just for our education and edification, what is your going rate for a pro-rebuild of a list member's Rochester 4CG?Another request for expert opinion. Packard used both Rochester and Carter 4-bbls on the '55 and '56 V8s. Which do you like better and why? Might as well throw in how much to rebuild the Carter also. TIA.jv. </div></div>Jack - unfortunately, our backlog is at that point where we are no longer accepting customer units for rebuilding. Too busy trying to make parts to keep the old cars running with the new fuels.As to the Rochester vs Carter? Both are excellent examples of 1950's 4 barrel technology. What does this mean? In my opinion, both of these units are not quite so technologically advanced as the newer Carter AFB and Rochester Q-Jets; however they are more reliable than either, and much more reliable than the new (1985 up) production AFB's and clones. Either, properly rebuilt, will do a MUCH BETTER job than anything currently available (unless one has the wherewithall to modify the new unit, and MUCH modification will be required). If one is touring where different altitudes or different fuels are likely to be encountered, then the Carter has an edge, as one can machine different metering rods for different altitudes and ethanol, and easily change as necessary. Given local driving, the Rochester will perform as well as the Carter.As to a professional rebuild: the "addicted" hobbyist may do a BETTER job of rebuilding than the lower cost professionals (after all, its his car!). Excellent rebuilding kits are available to the hobbyist; and often the lower cost professionals will use lesser kits to compete on costs. For the true "money is no object" restoration, the professional will normally do a better job, but this will depend on the individual professional and the individual hobbyist.I would suggest most using this board should do their rebuilding, using the resources on the board for assistance, if necessary.Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Vines Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Hi, Jon,Thanks for the reply. Coming from a professional carb shop owner, maybe it will finally begin to sink in to those who trash the Rochester 4CG and the Carter WCFB. These are well-designed and reliable units. No reason they can't be made to work satisfactorily. (Actually, I am having second thoughts. Maybe I could convince them the old carbs are trash and to send me all those discarded carbs to use on my 2-4bbl manifolds.)Was most interested to read you feel the post-1985 Edelbrock and Carter AFBs are inferior to the original receipe 1962-85 manufacture. What changed and what did they skimp on? Shiny isn't everything!thnx, jv.Your tip about constantly changing the fuel filter was invaluable. How about your next three top tips for those of us who want to keep our OEM carbs running forever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 Ok, started at 8pm tonight, carb on car. Took carb off & completely apart. Blew out all passages with compressed air again. One thing I did change was that in the rebuild kit I got the needle valves for the floats were of a different design that I didn't particularly care for, so I put the originals back in. This kit came with needle valves that were actually a piece of neoprene that did the stopping with a little metal cylinder that goes between the neoprene piece & the float itself. As I was reassemling it, I noticed the clyinders were sticking, thus perhaps not letting enough fuel back in the carb; so I put the originals back in. Got the carb back together and on the car & had it running at 10:30pm tonight! How's that for efficiency? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Starts good, idles good, and revs up good with no hesitation now. I did buy an inline filter but didnt have the fittings to install it correctly tonight, so I put a new filter element in the fuel bowl for now. Fuel bowl does only fill up about 3/4 of the way now that I have a filter back in it, but carb is not starving for fuel. I will install a see thru filter soon though to see what's going on with crud in the fuel tank & lines. The tank has never been of this car, so I'm sure there's crud in it, I just don't have time to do everything at once right now. I'll probably have it boiled out over the winter. I'll go for a test drive tomorrow night & let you know how it went. Thanks again. Hey carbking, what are your thoughts on those neoprene needle valves? Is that something you consider to be part of a cheap rebuild kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> One thing I did change was that in the rebuild kit I got the needle valves for the floats were of a different design that I didn't particularly care for, so I put the originals back in. This kit came with needle valves that were actually a piece of neoprene that did the stopping with a little metal cylinder that goes between the neoprene piece & the float itself. Hey carbking, what are your thoughts on those neoprene needle valves? Is that something you consider to be part of a cheap rebuild kit? </div></div>There are two different brand fuel valves that resemble your description:Parker Brothers made a valve that was an aluminum plunger with a concave opening. In the opening there was a small flat neopreme washer. The seat had an inverted flare, and the flat washer would seal on the inverted flare. The surviving Parker brother retired several years ago, and this valve was discontinued at that time. Unfortunate, because the valve worked extremely well. Wish we had a source for these.The second valve was similiar to the Parker Brothers design, but consisted of a metal plunger and a separate metal wafer with the neopreme washer encapsulated in the wafer. The wafer "floated" between the seat and the plunger. If this valve is used, it is imperative to readjust the float drop such that the wafer cannot lodge sideways between the plunger and the seat. We would never consider using this valve ourselves, and in fact have thrown away several hundred we acquired when buying old inventory. The same is true for the "2-ball" fuel valve; we have melted hundreds of these for the brass content.As to one poster's comment concerning neopreme valves and ethanol: in a perfect world, the neopreme valve will seal much better than the monel steel valve. The current neopreme fuel valves are ethanol-resistant (not ethanol-proof); however CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF, ethanol will CORRODE the monel steel valves as well! Thus the neopreme valves are still the better of the two. If you use ethanol, you WILL do fuel system maintenance, regardless of the claims of the ethanol producers.The biggest problem with the modern fuel valves is that some (perhaps by now all) of the manufacturers of the modern valves have decided that the "staking" procedure was extra cost, and have eliminated this procedure. The "staking" procedure would place a chamfer on the sealing edge of the orifice in the fuel valve seat. Eliminating the chamfer leaves a sharp edge that cuts into the the neopreme tip of the valve and causes premature failure. Our solution to this issue: prior to installing a valve, we place the valve seat on the piece of wood (to protect the threads), insert a steel ball into the area where the plunger would normally fit (on the orifice), place a drift punch on the ball, and whack (technical term) the punch with a hammer. This seems to work very well. While I would like to blame the ethanol (it certainly causes more than its share of problems) for this, it really is not the fault of the ethanol; the unstaked valve will fail in gasoline as well. MOO. Others may have differing opinions.Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 I reused the original idle mixture adjustment screws too. The ones in the kit were pretty close but not exact, so I used to old ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi, Jon,Was most interested to read you feel the post-1985 Edelbrock and Carter AFBs are inferior to the original receipe 1962-85 manufacture. What changed and what did they skimp on? Shiny isn't everything!thnx, jv. </div></div>Jack - just one of the many changes involved changing from pressure casting to vacuum casting. Castings made with pressure are more dense, thus fewer porosity problems.Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Installed modern inline fuel filter and went for my test drive. The car never ran better. Zero hesitation upon acceleration, smooth idle, ect. See y'all in Warren on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Vines Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Congratulations, and we all owe carbking a vote of thanks for being a voice of experience, sanity and reason. The simplest explanation is usually the best.thnx, jv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 <span style="font-style: italic">"It ain't got no gas in it, uh-huh"</span> Carl, in "Sling blade" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Let me add my thanks, Carbking. We all benefit from the knowledge of those who really know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Bernardi, are you coming to Warren either tomorrow or Saturday? If so, don't forget to give me a poke in the ribs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Randy - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Randy -I hope to get to Warren Saturday and definitely will look you up. Won't be in my 400, unfortunately. Visited it in storage a couple of days ago and the ignition switch fell out of the dash. Time was short and it was too hot to work on, so I don't know what caused it or how to fix it. It will be anothe week or so before I can get back to it. In the meantime, has anyone else experienced this problem? What is the solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Packards1 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Most likely the chrome retaining bezel has a broken attaching tab. Look at the chrome bezel and see if the two attaching tabs are intact or that they are not bent way out of alignment. The solution is to get another bezel that is ok and push the switch out through the hole and put the attaching bezel on it. This usually works better with two people as you have to push the switch out with a lot of force so the bezel can be attached. I personally believe the spring on the end of the switch has too much tension and have toyed with the idea of cutting a little of it off before I put a bezel on the Caribbean I am working on. Anyone else feel free to chime in on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 If you need a new bezel David Moe from Seatle Packards has nice ones very cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Thanks for your thoughts. As soon as I can visit the storage building, I'll check out the bezel. It's great to know that replacements are available. I thought I'd be up the proverbial creek if that were the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 BigKev - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Big Kev -Google comes up with only one David Moe in Seattle, and nothing for Seattle Packards. When I called David Moe, he didn't know what I was talking about. If you have his number or any other info, please send me a PM.Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 David MoeSeatle Packardsdmoeenterprises@cs.com425-334-7754 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 BigKev - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 BigKev -Thanks for David Moe's number. Spoke with him yesterday and he has the bezel plus other things I (may) need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Excellent, good to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now