My rant about BJ's [ not what you think ] !

[Dr Morbius]

Don't get excited anyone, but this is about the Boobs at Barret Jackson. When a 1937 model 115 came up at auction - and I'm impressed.... $137,000 FOR THE CAR! The things the narrators were saying drove me nuts! Things like Packard was founded in 1903, Henry Joy took over when Mr. Packard retired, The Packard model 115 had a 8 cylinder engine, Packard went out in 1950 and on and on - it just shows me they have no idea what a car was before the muscle car era. Anybody agree with me on this???

.................Steve <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Dave Mitchell]

I certainly do agree with you. I really can't stand the sad commentary - if they don't know, why do they make things up? If they are going to show 30s cars that go through, why not find someone who knows a little about them? I am sure there are people who would do it that would be good and wouldn't cost that much. I didn't watch any this year for just this reason. I am not into muscle cars or 60s & 70s cars, all the lime green ones fire breathing ones look alike to me! Not being difficult, just don't know anything about them, so if they bring 10K or 100K or a million, it is ok with me. I am just very sceptical that this is all real. How many of these cars really sell and how many really go for the money that is shown? I am thinking of the auctions other than BJ also. If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. I am with you, I sure wish that they would get someone who knows older cars as once the disinformation is on TV millions believe it. I wrote to them after watching some of the sad comments last year and offered to get them together with some collectors of early (up through the 40s) cars and they could do some programs about the history of some great makes like Packard, Cad, Duesenberg, Stutz, Buick, Franklin, Pierce Arrow, etc - sort of like the Victory by Design series where Allain DeCadenet drives great cars and shows that you can use them and talks about the engineering. That way the commentators could learn something too. I never even got an acknowledgement that they recieved it. Oh well.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, the persentage of pre-war cars at BJ autions has dropped dramaticly in recent years, so the TV producers don't consider them as important any more. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[mrpushbutton]

Ironically, B-J has employed Ed Lucas (the voice of the Meadowbrook concours, and a walking encyclepedia of automotive knowedge, especially pre-war) as their live "color commentator". Ed certainly would not spout such mis-information. Who would ever think that the late 60's/early 70's muscle cars would be worth more than a Packard Dietrich 12 or Duesenberg J?. Those muscle cars are some of the poorest quality vehicles made in America--they rusted out in 3 years, the Mopar interiors came aapart at the seams after one year. They just happen to have fantastic engines. We just kept repeating the mantra: "It's west coast money,It's west coast money!"

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

To all thus far: I don't remember any of u complaining about the 1965 Packard V12 debacle from 4 or 5 years ago. So why do any of u want to rant about some silly auctioneers ramblings at an auction block????

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yeah, Everybody, Get out and Work on your Packards, and Stop your Bitchin! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> 'Idle Hands Cause More Bitchin' <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Dave Mitchell]

I am not sure that I see why these two topics are related, except that both deal with people who don't know that much about the topic at hand. There were plenty of people talking about the 65 Packard, so I never felt I could add to the discussion. I was at CCCA headquarters in Chicago for a national board meeting and someone brought that issue as he had just gotten it that day. We assumed it was a joke as it was so obviously faked. The photos alone gave it away. I thought it was very unlikely that people would take it seriously. I just thought it was a waste of space in the magazine. Club publications are not like text books however, are usually staffed by non professionals and aren't always to the highest standards of research. Unfortunately people assume that if it is in print or spoken on the hallowed airwaves of TV by people who are paid to give smart commentary, that is must be true. I have to admit that I didn't watch BJ more than 10 minutes this year, and I didn't hear Ed Lucas, but he does know about 20s and 30s classics, so he should have been able to set the rest straight or at least get closer to the truth, and should be able to add some colorful backround. I do get more worried about auction houses manipulating the car values than I do about someone duping the club editor.

[Guest]

Mr. Pushbutton: Who would have ever thought that in the late 40's and early 50's that cars like Duesenburgs or Packard Dietrich 12's wouldbe worth what they are today. Back then you could probably purchase on for less than $ 500.00. That is how alot of the old timers in the CCCA got thier cars.

Now you want to talk about poor quality cars from the late 60's and 70's that rusted before your eyes. The junk that Honda and Toyota imported into this country during that period started rustig even when you looked at them. Here in Central Penna. when exposed to the salt in the winter time, they would start rusting out faster than alot the American built cars of the same peroid. The same can be said for the imported junk from France, Italy, and Britian. Iam in my mid 50's and remember that Jap junk from the 70's and will never buy a Jap made automobile.

Packard V8 you better be carefull about bringing up the 1965 V12 Packard Story. Al K will get all worked up because he will think that you are picken on his buddies that run PAC. Sounds to me like the people doing the commontary for BJ might be related to some of the writers that contribute to the TPC. They tend to make up things, two come to mind right away.

John F. Shireman

[Dave Mitchell]

I agree, I don't like Japanese cars either. I am influenced by my father who flew P 47s in WWII though. I worked in a Porsche Audi dealership washing cars when I was 15 in in the summer of 1975. Someone traded in a Toyota and I had to take the interior out to clean it up. I was so amazed at how cheap it was - there was a bulkhead between the trunk and the rear seat - in the German and American cars (like the Bonneville my dad drove) this was a very strong stamped metal component that was integral with the body and you couldn't even dent it easily. (the fenders may have rusted, but that bulkhead was strong) - in the Toyota it was a piece of fiberboard, one step better than cardboard, which popped right out. I was stunned. I always wondered what would happen to one of those in a crash. I looked at the rest of the car and it was just as lightweight. I vowed to never own a Japanese car. I know they are better now, but I still think of the lack of structural safety and figure that those engineers didn't care what would happen if a big American car (which ruled the road then, like dinosaurs) hit a Toyota. Do they care now? Or do the accountants who run things? If MB hadn't pushed airbags would we have them now?

[mrpushbutton]

Packard 53--you are right. those big classics were plentiful and cheap at one time. And yes, the core of the CCCA was founded by folks who bought them back when. Those same guys that love to tell you how they paid a three-figure sum for their Packard Dietrich 12 in 195X about soil themselves when they go to by parts today--"that's more than I paid for the car!" (much kvetching before the money finally comes out). But of course, if they do finally sell that same car, they are acutely aware of the latest value of that car.

Yes, the early Japanese cars did rust faster than our crappy Detroit iron. No, they didn't come out of a crash with a duce 'an a quarter very well. But that too is now history. Go on line and look at the crash ratings of the camry and accord. They rate very well. The current SUV "personal tank" mentality has absorbed all of the attention of Ford and GM for the last decade. Hey, they were the most profitable vehicles in the line-up, that's where they made a killing!. Meanwhile Toyota and Honda have continued to serve the boring, marginal, old sedan and coupe business, and have been eating our lunch. The Japanese companies are not building heirloom pieces like the cars we admire from our youth (or our father's generation), they are building transportation appliances that the consuming public likes very much. Hell, I'm seeing "the greatest generation" WWII era folks driving around in them. Every day. Everyone knows how much money they have to devote to transportation, and how they perceive the value they get for their money. I'm convinced that had the Japanese car invasion not occured when it did, or had been blocked by over protective tarrifs, we would all still be stuck buying warmed over 77 Newports, Duce 'an a quarters, Impalers, those Gawd awful LTD's. Or worse yet, the Pinto and Chevy Monza, with a new grille every three years. The Japs must be doing something right. A big part of their success is due to the differences in their dealer structure. Most Detroit makes are sold and serviced by poorly run family businesses, that are a catch-all for every family naer-do-well.

[olcarherb]

Hey!!! Packard built a V12 in 1965? WOW!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I'd really LOVE to find one of those!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Maybe there'll be one at Barrett Jackson next year that I can bid on and buy!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I wonder what the Speedchannel announcers will say about the '65 Packard V12??? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Hey Packard Guys - Should I start saving my money now??? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Do you think if one shows up it'll set another "World's Record" like the GM Futureliner or last year's Olds "showcar"? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> So, guys, whaddya think? (he asks as he removes his tongue from his cheek <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Oh, and BTW, the ONLY thing NOT silly 'bout the BJ auctioneers and staff are, unfortunately, their commission checks on the cars that actually do sell <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> (ie, those they find a sucker for!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

[Guest Silverghost]

I run into these early "Classic Guys" myself all the time when I am trying to BUY a "Classic" they tell me that they only paid $600 for their Silver Ghost then try to sell it to me for $2-$300K and get insulted when I offer less!!!

OH...and don't forget offering me their spare parts for more outrageous money after I spent Big Bucks$$$ for their car!!!

These are the very same guys who never properly restored this fine car in 40-50 years!!!...(Vinyl seats not leather + Earl Schieb Paint Job!!!)

I also like the guys who tell you..."I could have bought Father Divine's Model J Duesenberg here in Philadelphia for $1000. in 1955 !!!" I often wonder if they are telling me this to make me feel bad because of today's prices...or are they telling me how stupid & cheap they were???

I will let you decide!!!

Then there are the guys that offer me a Great Classic at a Nutty High price...I make a FAIR counter-offer...They get insulted!!!

I then find that 3-4 months later they have sold the same car to a Dealer at 50%-75% of my CASH offer!!! I can't understand this at all???

Figure that one out ?!?!

The Outlandish High Prices are not only seen at the Barrett-Jackson Auction!!!

I am offered cars for Crazy High Money every Month!!!

[mrpushbutton]

Silverghost--In 15 years we will be seeing "regestered Classics" being streetrodded, about two a month. It's not going to be Duesenberg "J" models, It won't be open cars with custom coachwork by Dietrich, LeBaron etc. But sedans and coupes--will all be getting SBC's, tilt columns, 20's all around. It's an actuarial inevebility. The laws of supply and demand are strong and ever relenting.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hey Packard Guys - Should I start saving my money now??? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

It shouldn't take Much Money, cause We won't be bidding on it! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Silverghost]

Mr Push Button...I already am seeing "Classics" being turned into Hotrods!!!

I saw a former V12 Lincoln Town Car at a boardwalk Hotrod Show in Ocean City N.J. last Summer!!! Small Block Chev...Turbo 350 etc!!!

Saw a Rolls~Royce Springfield P I Croyden Conv. Hotrodded last year!!! Big Block Chev this time!!! It was in an RM auction catalog!!!

Another guy in PA. turned a Britt. Phantom I into a reproduction of the old "MOXIE" Horse parade car several years ago!!! I met him in the Rolls~Royce row at Hershey several years ago!!!

He thought this was great!!! A friend bought the Origioal R~R driveline!!! (At least he saved the parts!!!)

There was a Chord Westcheter (Red) at the B-J auction last year...HotRodded!!! Also a V12 Lincoln Zepher Hotod!!!

Lets not forget that White Packard Limo. at the B-J Auction last week!!!

The High price the Packard broght will only cause more of this to happen!!!

In my opinion...THESE FOLKS SHOULD BE SHOT AT SUNRISE!!!

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, As Good restoration parts get harder to find at an acceptable price, We're going to see more and more of that. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[mrpushbutton]

It's not the availability of restoration parts. It's what the street rod guys want in a finished project. They could go to a concours event and look at a freshly restored Packard 12 open car and say "all that car needs is a SBC, PS,PB,air, thump-thump stereo, 20's, recaro seats, and you'd have a CAR" ( I have heard these very words while polishing a car on the field @ meadowbrook) They don't go for historical, silent motoring. It's not their thing. They have scaled every mountain there is with every Ford body made. Chevs and Plymouths have all been done. I think the great shame in all of this is that the progeny of the CCCA (and most other antique auto clubs/owners) don't give a damn about the cars and will most likely cook the deal to liquidate at the funeral home. I'm 46 and I know three other guys my age that are actively interested in those cars. two of them have fathers with cars that they will inherit and treasure. That's not much of a batting adveredge.

[tbirdman]

I do have some doubts when I bought my 32 903 coupe roadster Packard that financially I should be buying a muscle car. However I have no interest in muscle cars and hope that pricing for Packards remain steady. When you go to a local cruise in, 60's is the largest class particpation. I don't want to be one of many. I plan to drive my Packard and if someone feels it would be better hot rodded, so be it. I plan to keep my Packard authentic.

I'm pushing 50 but my Dad had no cars.

What I really don't get is the fiberglass cars. Not seeing the value in buying or putting one together.

[Guest Silverghost]

Mr Push Button...You can add ME to your "Classic Lovers" list...I am 50 y.o !!!

I love these fine Machines!!!

By the way...Does turning a Rolls~Royce Phantom I into a Boat-tailed Mahogany Skiff count as "Hot-Rodding" ??? If so...I am guilty too... At least I am not wrecking a good body to do so...The only sheet metal left was the scuttle & hood !!!

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What I really don't get is the fiberglass cars. Not seeing the value in buying or putting one together. </div></div>

I agree 100%. What I also don?t understand is why a Hemi-Cuda ?recreation? sold for $130K at BJ. Someone found a 1970-something Barracuda, did a nice resto including a new 426 hemi crate motor (I think you can buy one from Chrysler for around $10K). Seems like you could do it yourself for about $30-50K by just finding a solid old Barracuda and having a good mechanic and body shop do the work (all the parts are available aftermarket) and save yourself about $50K or so. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Dave Mitchell]

Mr Pushbutton is right, I have rodders call me for parts for senior cars - it has been going on for a while. They are also willing to pay perhaps more than original car guys for parts. I know of 2 38 Super 8 rods, one was Herbert Hoover's convertible sedan! I know of several 34 8 sedans, one was done about 16 years ago, at least one 32 and one 35 12 sedan, and a 32 900 sedan. As the rodders quest to outdo the next guy with a Ford, Chev, Willys, Plymouth etc gets to the point that they can't think of anything else, they turn to cars with more styling potential. What has stopped them in the past is that these cars are a lot harder to do than a Ford. They are big cars with a lot of structural wood and much heavier in the body and frame. There is a reason that these cars had 473 cu in V12s with 400 pound feet of torque and 4.41 rear axles. Just taking the engine out still leaves a heavy car. I figure if a car has made it 70 years without being cut up, it should survive, but that isn't true anymore, and restorers and parts guys are guilty of cutting up big sedans for parts more than hot rodders. The CCCA and PAC etc have not done a great job at educating the young people about these big cars and giving people fun things to do with them. The CCCA was for way too long a secret society, and the biggest turn around there is the Michigan region, who instead of having the summer Grand Classic at a private location, has had it at Greenfield Village where the general public who pays admission to the facility can walk right up to the cars. The average age in the CCCA is about 60 year old though, at 44 I am one of the younger guys with classics, particularly since my dad didn't have them. I am glad to see some younger guys on here. The other thing is that people only see these cars at concours, delivered on trailers, and they don't know that you don't need a SBC in it to drive it. I can run 70+ mph all day in my 37 1508 and have put 18000 miles on it in the last few summers, with the only modern change being Michelin radials.

As far as the fiberglass cars, I wouldn't want one, but at least they aren't cutting up a classic to make it.

There are a lot more 50s and 60s cars around - more were built and they didn't go through the WWII scrap drives, but they don't do anything for me, 70s cars less so even. I had 3 post war Packards, and they were very, very nice cars to drive, and cheaper to fix and easier to find parts for, but I so much prefer the pre war styling and quality that I now my newest is 1941, so I suppose I am the real outsider here. Or maybe I just like to be different.

[Guest Silverghost]

Dave...You are not alone!!! I am with you on this one!!!

I believe when all is said and done The True "Classics" will always remain the Zenith of Automobile design!!! These are the cars that I have always dreamed of owning!!!

I am now living that dream!!!

[Guest]

Dave: I only have a limited amount of time to respond. It is a real shame that your interest in this hobby is of such a narrow span, because you are mIssing so much. Sounds like my grandson at 16 with general knowlegde of this hobby, would eat you up for breakfast

Sounds like you need to educate yourself some. NO PACKARD V12 COMING FROM THE FACTORY PUT OUT OVER 400 LBS OF TORQUE. The late 30's packard v12's are rated at 366lbs of torque. The fact that Claasics are being turned into streetrods is nothing new. This kind of thing has been going since I have been a kid and I am 56 years old. My first love is the true classic, and don't like to see them being turned into streetrods, but that is life and the cars aren't being put into the crusher. Ever since the begining of this hobby there are those who want to preserve and those whom want to modify. Neither side shoudl look down thier nose and be critical of the other side.

As much as I dislike Peter Hartmann and disagree with him about things, in the older cars to cruise safely on the highways you have to make some modification to releieve the strains on the drive trains. You might cruise at 70 in your Packard V12 but with 4:41 gear ratio your beating the heck out of that engine.

My main interest in this hobby are the CLASSICS number one on my list. That list also includes streetrods, vintage race cars, including cars of the 50's 60's and 70's. Also cars being made in the USA as well as autombiles being produced in other countries.

John F. Shireman

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not the availability of restoration parts. </div></div>

You must live on a different Planet than than I do, Or maybe it's just a different part of this one. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Cause Good Affordable parts for Pre-war cars (post-war cars is different) is getting Much harder to find now than it was 10 years ago, in my Neighborhood. Of course the internet has made it much easyer to find parts, since you can search all over the world with it, but without it, it would be much harder to find good parts locally. Of course I don't have the deep pockets some you guys have, to pay 10 times as much as before, either. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Dave Mitchell]

Hi John, I have no doubt that your 16 your old grandson knows more about most cars that I do, and I applaud him for that, and you have a far greater knowledge than I do too. I shouldn't even be on here since I just own, drive and work on a few cars of a very limited type and year range, I am no historian. I have been lucky enough to meet some very interesting people who worked with custom body building in the 30s, luckily enough those who worked on three of the custom bodied cars that I own, and my knowledge there is also very limited. I don't want to argue with you about anything, I will be happy to go away. OK, if you say that the Packard 12 had 366 pound feet of torque, you are certainly right, I and the manual that I have were off by 34+ ftlb. I just get carried away talking about the cars that I like, I didn't mean to misinform anyone. Can you tell me the horsepower and torque increase with the factory high compression heads on the V12? I never said that my car has a 4.41 rear axle, it doesn't - I said that most of them came with it, and that I believe is correct. I only have 11 V12s in various states of disrepair, so my sample is small. I know that these cars are not what the folks on this forum are most interested in.

I will dispute you on one thing however. I never said that I look down my nose at any other type of car. You do not know me or you wouldn't say that. I just happen to like 20s - 40s big classics best. I have a couple of non classics too. I had 2 55 Packards, a 400 and a Patrician, along with a 2106 club sedan, and they were nice cars to drive, but not my favorites, that doesn't mean that I don't like the people who own cars like that or that I can't appreciate them for what they are. I like what I like and as you say that is life. That is why they make chocolate and vanilla - not everyone likes the same thing. I have worked on Bugattis, duPont, Buicks, Duesenbergs, Rolls Royces, Auburn, Ruxton, Lincolns, Jensen, Cadillacs, Nash, Chrysler, DeSoto, Plymouth, Velie, Stutz, Studebaker, Hispano Suiza, Chevrolet and Marmon, to name a few, so I think I am lucky to have had that great of an exposure to unusual cars. But these were all prewar, and mostly classics. When it comes to cars I like best, I still prefer the 35 - 41 Packard Seniors and juniors and have some of each from all years in that range except for 1940. I have a couple of GM cars too and I like them. I haven't worked on brass cars, but that doesn't mean I don't like them, same with Ferraris and 300SLs, and racing Porsches. I would love to educate myself and work on more types of cars, and I hope that I will have the chance. I don't know anything about Model Ts either, but had great fun riding in one with a friend and I think it would be fun to own one and go on tours in it. I will be the first to admit that I would like to know more. I have been lucky enough to see some very nice cars and go to some great shows, but I just don't have the time and money to go to all the things that I would like to. So yes it is a shame that my interest is so narrow, but I have focused on what I like best to do what I can with the time I have. I am sorry if I upset you.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't want to argue with you about anything, </div></div>

But Argueing is an Important part of this Forum! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Granted, Some Enjoy it more than others, but don't let it 'Get To You'.

[Guest]

Dave: First of all you are very lucky to work on the cars you have named. Sounds like I might be a better historian, but you have me beat as far as hands on knowledge, which should make you a darn better mechanic than me.

One part of your reply that caught my attention, does the work manual for your V12 state 400 lbs of torque. Now I am wondering which source is correct yours or mine. Here is the information that I have from my sources for the 35 througgh 39. 1935 and 1936 standard compression ratio 6.0:1 with optional heads 6.25:1 and 7.0:1. 1937 to 1939 standard compression ratio of 6.0:1, with optopn heasd compresion ratios of 6.40:1 and 7.0:1. Its states that horse power was rated at 175 horse power, and with high compression heads 180 horsepower. The torque figure for the Packard V12 from 1932 through 1934 was listed at 322 lbs at 1400 rpm's. From 1935 through 1939 the torque is listed at 366 lbs at 1400 rpm's.

I must confess at this point I forget what year your Packard V12 is. As far as rearend ratios goes the only ratio for the Packard v12 in 1938 nad 1939 was 4.41:1. 1937 4.41:1 with optional ratios of 4.06:1, 4.69:1 and 5.07:1. Those ratio numbers are listed for the Packard V12 back through 1932 according to the information that I have. If you have the 4.06:1 ratio under your Packard which for the time wouldbe considered a high speed rear end ratio you might get away with pushing your V12 a 70 mph allday, but with any other ratio your realy putting alot of strain on the V12.

John F. Shireman